The Criterion Collection

[ShellOilJunior]

Originally Posted by ben.baf

Fincher might be the greatest American director working today behind Scorsese and Speilberg. What's with the hate?

IMO, it begins with Woody Allen whom I believe is more prolific that those mentioned (Plus, Midnight in Paris has received rave reviews at Cannes).

Although, I really enjoy the films of the directors you've listed and we're very fortunate they're still making quality films.

[octagon]

The Coens aren't dead yet either.

[SpiderBaby]

Vincent Gallo even. Monte Hellman and Paul Morrissey made obscure returns this past year too.

Like Schonfelder said, then outside of the U.S., you still have living legends in Philippe Garrel, Godard, Herzog (well kind of in the U.S. side of things now), Rivette, Kiarostami, etc all still making films.

[greekak229]

Originally Posted by Schonfelder

No hate, if you read the posts you'll see that we're even saying that he has good films. The problem is in your first sentence : the man is totally over-over-over-rated. And Scorsese and Spielberg, the best living American directors ?
Have you ever heard of David Lynch, Abel Ferrara, Brian De Palma, John Carpenter, Gus Van Sant, Michael Mann, Terrence Malick, Michael Cimino, Clint Eastwood ? - and that's just for starters...

Fincher isn't even on the toplist of the "new generation", Tarantino and James Gray are way better directors (just staying in the US, of course, because if we go worldwide, then things get way more complicated to him...)

Brian De Palma makes terrible films, I'm sorry. Yeah, he has a couple good ones, like Blow Out, but come on, to say that Scorsese or Fincher aren't in the same league as the likes of De Palma or Mann is pretty absurd.

[madmojo]

Originally Posted by greekak229

Brian De Palma makes terrible films, I'm sorry. Yeah, he has a couple good ones, like Blow Out, but come on, to say that Scorsese or Fincher aren't in the same league as the likes of De Palma or Mann is pretty absurd.

And with Cimino, he made two, maybe three good films. Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, The Deer Hunter, and possibly Year of The Dragon. Half his work (I believe he's only done 6 films) is generally considered not good.

Any choice the Criterion people make is fine with me. It's their decision. People hate others liking things they themselves don't like. It seems to be human nature.

[Benchman]

Originally Posted by Schonfelder

No hate, if you read the posts you'll see that we're even saying that he has good films. The problem is in your first sentence : the man is totally over-over-over-rated. And Scorsese and Spielberg, the best living American directors ?
Have you ever heard of David Lynch, Abel Ferrara, Brian De Palma, John Carpenter, Gus Van Sant, Michael Mann, Terrence Malick, Michael Cimino, Clint Eastwood ? - and that's just for starters...

Fincher isn't even on the toplist of the "new generation", Tarantino and James Gray are way better directors (just staying in the US, of course, because if we go worldwide, then things get way more complicated to him...)

Every movie Fincher has ever made has been at least solid(besides alien 3) He's directed 5 amazing films: Fight club, Seven, The Social Network, Zodiac, and Benjamin Button in about 15 years. Compared to the directors you just listed only about half have produced more than 3 great movies. I'm not saying those aren't great directors that you just listed but right now Fincher seems to be on track to becoming an all time great if he's not already. Could you please explain why you believe he is overrated?

[Schonfelder]

Originally Posted by SpiderBaby

Vincent Gallo even. Monte Hellman and Paul Morrissey made obscure returns this past year too.

Like Schonfelder said, then outside of the U.S., you still have living legends in Philippe Garrel, Godard, Herzog (well kind of in the U.S. side of things now), Rivette, Kiarostami, etc all still making films.

Hellman, of course ! Can't wait to see "Road to Nowhere".

And i wasn't even thinking of "living directors" when i said "worldwide", only in this crop from, say, 90's ahead. Pedro Costa, Apichatpong Weerasethakul, Claire Denis, Jia Zhang-Ke, Lucrecia Martel, Philippe Grandrieux, Tsai Ming-Liang, Lisandro Alonso, Albert Serra, Hong Sang-Soo... all way, waaaaay ahead of Finchers and Nolans.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ben.baf

Could you please explain why you believe he is overrated?

He's a solid director who's made several good to very good films.

To say he's more than that - which people routinely do - is to overrate him.

Overrated doesn't mean he sucks, it's just means he's not as fantabulous as his more zealous fans would have you think.

[GunRanger]

Originally Posted by Schonfelder

Fincher isn't even on the toplist of the "new generation", Tarantino and James Gray are way better directors (just staying in the US, of course, because if we go worldwide, then things get way more complicated to him...)

Why are you so high on Gray? Just curious.

[keldons]

I wonder when people on here will realize that different films will resonate with different people based on their sensibilities, and arguing over which directors mean more to you over the internet is a huge waste of time. Do you really care if someone thinks Gallo is better than Fincher or vice versa?

[madmojo]

I think some people tend to think that favorite = best. I'm willing to admit a lot of my favorite directors are nowhere near the best.

Different folks, different strokes guys.

[Schonfelder]

Originally Posted by greekak229

Brian De Palma makes terrible films, I'm sorry. Yeah, he has a couple good ones, like Blow Out, but come on, to say that Scorsese or Fincher aren't in the same league as the likes of De Palma or Mann is pretty absurd.

Underrated x Overrated.
De Palma hasn't made a single bad film - even his "bad" ondes, like Bonfire of Vanities, are delightful to watch. Problem is, people more and more aren't watching the films, instead they just keep looking for signs. The art of watching, which is cinema's prime goal, is giving way to a mode of "unveiling" a film - and that's why this generation of directors who tend to give "smart" movies seems to be so en vogue. What counts for the public (and, yes, large part of the critic) is to see a film that makes you feel intelligent, instead of just making you FEEL. So, in that matter, a film that wants to put you inside a cinematic planet, "implanted" inside a big flow of cinematic memory (that's where De Palma's movies are, and he's not that far from Raul Ruiz in this conception) to admire the light and forms and moving images, is misconcepted as "dumb" because it didn't has that "smart" script. And, still in this direction, i guess that's why the word "slow" appears more and more in the description of films that don't fill that pace.
"What the modern movie lacks is beauty – the beauty of moving wind in the trees" - Griffith, almost a hundred years ago, and still relevant.

[GunRanger]

Originally Posted by madmojo

I think some people tend to think that favorite = best. I'm willing to admit a lot of my favorite directors are nowhere near the best.

Different folks, different strokes guys.

I hate that mentality. There are no objective measures as to what makes something great. Whether something is good or not is subjective, so obviously those directors must be doing something right if they're connecting with you.

[Benchman]

Originally Posted by greekak229

Brian De Palma makes terrible films, I'm sorry. Yeah, he has a couple good ones, like Blow Out, but come on, to say that Scorsese or Fincher aren't in the same league as the likes of De Palma or Mann is pretty absurd.

I agree man Blow Out was great but aside from that everything is bad to mediocre. The Untouchables was pretty good too and Carlito's Way was great.

[madmojo]

Originally Posted by GunRanger

I hate that mentality. There are no objective measures as to what makes something great. Whether something is good or not is subjective, so obviously those directors must be doing something right if they're connecting with you.

When one says "best" in a filmmaking sense, one is usually speaking of many different facets of the trade gelling together to make the movie great. Mise-en-Scene, screenwriting, lighting, etc. When I say my favorites aren't always great, I mean that it may have a good story, but the execution to most would be lacking, or that the direction may be fantastic, but the story is stupid.

Most people wouldn't say Speed Racer is one of the best films ever made, and I would agree with them. However it is one of my favorite movies. I get great enjoyment out of it. Doesn't make me any less of a person.

Either way of looking at it, arguing about what is and isn't important is an argument that can't be won, which is what I was trying to say.

[Schonfelder]

Originally Posted by madmojo

And with Cimino, he made two, maybe three good films. Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, The Deer Hunter, and possibly Year of The Dragon. Half his work (I believe he's only done 6 films) is generally considered not good.

That's the point. Is not considered good by whom ? The 99,9% who thinks Titanic is the greatest film ever made ? (and by the way, James Cameron is a better director than Fincher, by miles, and i forgot to mention him).
Heaven's Gate (which you haven't mentioned), because all of the production problems, over budget, marketing fouls etc is still known as "the film who made United break", and little is mentioned about the fact that is simply one of the most gorgeous movies ever shot. All the financial problems it caused made his name on the blacklist, boycotted etc.
Same problems came filming Sunchaser, in the middle of the movie the budget was diminished, he had to shoot it in much less time, and still you can feel all that when you watch it, the montage, the paranoia all around. AND that final sequence, that thing is just out of this world, more 3-dimensional than any of this sh*te that is being shot today with stereoscopic cameras. A sequence, as a friend of mine says, that's more Eiseinsteinian than Eiseinstein. Pure genius.

[GunRanger]

Originally Posted by madmojo

Most people wouldn't say Speed Racer is one of the best films ever made, and I would agree with them. However it is one of my favorite movies. I get great enjoyment out of it. Doesn't make me any less of a person.
.

Don't worry, I think Speed Racer is great too.

[SammyJankis]

Originally Posted by ben.baf

Fincher might be the greatest American director working today behind Scorsese and Speilberg. What's with the hate?

Paul Thomas Anderson.

[madmojo]

Originally Posted by Schonfelder

That's the point. Is not considered good by whom ? The 99,9% who thinks Titanic is the greatest film ever made ? (and by the way, James Cameron is a better director than Fincher, by miles, and i forgot to mention him).
Heaven's Gate (which you haven't mentioned), because all of the production problems, over budget, marketing fouls etc is still known as "the film who made United break", and little is mentioned about the fact that is simply one of the most gorgeous movies ever shot. All the financial problems it caused made his name on the blacklist, boycotted etc.
Same problems came filming Sunchaser, in the middle of the movie the budget was diminished, he had to shoot it in much less time, and still you can feel all that when you watch it, the montage, the paranoia all around. AND that final sequence, that thing is just out of this world, more 3-dimensional than any of this sh*te that is being shot today with stereoscopic cameras. A sequence, as a friend of mine says, that's more Eiseinsteinian than Eiseinstein. Pure genius.

Well, that's your opinion. You're welcome to it. I'll keep mine.

[Schonfelder]

Originally Posted by GunRanger

Why are you so high on Gray? Just curious.

I think he's one of the few new American directors who seem to dominate every little aspect of the mise en scene (or maybe CARE about mise en scene at all). You see his films, the way the bodies move, the way they interact with scenery and camera, and feel in some sort of way that he's carrying the legacy of masters like Otto Preminger and Joseph Losey (not that he's in that league - probably never will be - but you can feel their inheritance).