First Blood / Rambo: First Blood Part II / Rambo III 4K UHDs (1982-1988)

[jordanjabroni]

Originally Posted by capricho

I'd be curious to know how are the black levels on the older bluray discs. On th remasters the blacks are reeeaaallly raised.

I'd recommend doing your own comparisons over at Caps-A-Holic, but I'll put some comparisons in the spoiler tags below. I previously referred to the older discs as the 2011 remasters, but as the packaging has a date of 2012 I will amend going forward.

FIRST BLOOD

[Show spoiler]2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Here, those elevated black levels in the 2018 also push the overbearing colour grade - giving the image a strong teal look with an unnatural flesh tone clashing against it.

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Though not as visible as the first example, the raised blacks and murky teal wash can be seen here also.

RAMBO: FIRST BLOOD PART II

[Show spoiler]2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Interesting comparison here. Despite being noticeably raised (& again soaked in teal), there is little-to-no improvement in terms of the actual visual information in the 2018 transfer. This again reaffirms that the black levels were just dragged up, rather than a new scan revealing more details in the darkness. Blacks are rich in the 2012, but do not obscure any of the detail (ramp, branches and containers).

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


This might be the most subjective comparison of the lot. While the 2018 may be more tonally appropriate to a night-time raid on first look, take a look at the 2012. This isn't a case of the 2012 transfer simply being over brightened, as the shadows and black levels are still deep as before - suggesting that this was the intended look of the on-set lighting. The darkest parts of the 2018 transfer aren't as dark as the 2012. A Rambo expert would have to weigh in on how this scene originally looked, I fear!

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


I think this one speaks for itself. It is worth noting however that the 2012 shot is cropped differently and does reveal a hint of the matte box on the left hand side of the image.

RAMBO III

[Show spoiler]2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Black levels appear richer at first glance in the 2018 transfer, but if you look at the 2012 you will again see that the darkest blacks are present on the left of the image. The 2018 actually loses visual information by being so crushed (compare the crowd on the right side of the screen). With the density of this image, the colour grade differences are really clear to see. Rambo and his opponent almost get lost in the crowd in the 2018 presentation.

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Again, everything is far too crushed in the 2018 - plus a dark blue wash seems to dominate the entire image. Black levels are deep in the 2012, but now Rambo stands out against the orange/brown background. The difference is striking.

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Like the night-time jungle shot in First Blood Part II, there seems to be an attempt in the 2018 transfer to negate the intended set lighting that is clearly showcased in the 2012. Rambo is clearly visible in the 2012, whereas he blends into the rock in the 2018. The 2018 shot may look more 'naturally' like a night-time scene, but the 2012 has a beautiful contrast between the stone wall and the inky blue sky. Again, the darkest parts of the 2018 transfer are actually brighter than the 2012.

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Another subjective one, I feel. The 2012 does appear to have some of the magenta push of the DVD era and detail/fidelity appears to be softer, but once again the shadows are clearly raised in the 2018. In the 2012, the shadows blend seamlessly into the aspect ratio black bars.

2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Grain is far more aggressive on the 2018, and is noticeably resolved in the 2012. However - all three 2012 discs do retain their grain in motion througout. The big takeaway here is - with so much black in the image - how raised the black levels are in the 2018. In fact, the whole image appears to be brightened to the point where Trautman's face is searingly hot.

Originally Posted by Markgway

No OG audio, the grading is rubbish.

I have no real knowledge of the OG audio for the Rambo trilogy, however it is worth noting that the 2012 trilogy boxset includes both DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 and DTS Master Audio 2.0 for all three movies. Both the 4K UHD and these SDR Blu-rays I've been discussing only feature the 5.1 track. I will need to sit down and do an A/B comparison at some point - although someone who is educated on how these movies originally sounded would need to weigh in for a more informed investigation.

[batman2000]

Originally Posted by DR Herbert West

.

I wish cliff would give us an update.

[jerclay]

Originally Posted by batman2000

I wish cliff would give us an update.

[BNex99]

I still have the Australian BD of the 2011 SC master of FIRST BLOOD, and it's definitely the best looking version of that film so far. I don't know if the 2.0 is actually the original stereo, a downmix of the 5.1, or somewhere in between, but it sounds vintage enough to me.

I let go of the others a while back, but I remember the framing on PART II being a little weird. Shifted too far to the left into the soundtrack area, I believe. It's too bad, because the color on that one was also pretty good, I think.

[Esox50]

Not to be a jerk...but this is a 4K Rambo thread. If you want to discuss blu-rays, Im sure there are threads for that.

The problem/annoyance is that every time this gets bumped for people discuss the out of scope blu-rays...others think there is a release update on the forthcoming "Definitive 4K Collection" many people are anxiously awaiting.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Yearbook

I'll be ready with a hundo+, hyped to hear that Part 2 70mm track.

Me too, suffering for years and years with an anemic 5.1 track sourced from MONO.

[drush9999]

I've held off for at least two years upgrading my Rambo BDs for this now almost mythical all cuts all frills set. Wake me up when the long road is over

[dallywhitty]

Originally Posted by jerclay

"It's a lie!"

Iconic.

[jordanjabroni]

Originally Posted by BNex99

I still have the Australian BD of the 2011 SC master of FIRST BLOOD, and it's definitely the best looking version of that film so far. I don't know if the 2.0 is actually the original stereo, a downmix of the 5.1, or somewhere in between, but it sounds vintage enough to me.

I let go of the others a while back, but I remember the framing on PART II being a little weird. Shifted too far to the left into the soundtrack area, I believe. It's too bad, because the color on that one was also pretty good, I think.

Sounds identical to the 2011/2012 trilogy I just picked up then. I'm loving it compared to the 2018 versions and will be more than happy with these until the 4Ks drop.

Originally Posted by Esox50

Not to be a jerk...but this is a 4K Rambo thread. If you want to discuss blu-rays, Im sure there are threads for that.

The problem/annoyance is that every time this gets bumped for people discuss the out of scope blu-rays...others think there is a release update on the forthcoming "Definitive 4K Collection" many people are anxiously awaiting.

Not to be a jerk back, but threads do veer away from the intended topic. The Superman '78 thread has been talking about Superman IV, Danny Elfman and all sorts for pages.

This is the most active Rambo trilogy thread. I'm trying to help other forum posters potentially find a better home video version of the Rambo trilogy as we've been itching for something better than the 2018 remasters.

You might be better off bookmarking Cliff's forum post index and refreshing it from time to time... or waiting until that release inevitably gets a thread of its own.

[Yearbook]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Me too, suffering for years and years with an anemic 5.1 track sourced from MONO.

It's so damn weak. If it's coming from Lionsgate Limited (the most obvious route), it's all but certain it'll hit the free shipping threshold. I've already sold off the current 4Ks, and the fact Cliff noted recently that the audio is done/conformed on 1-3 (probably no need to remaster 4 and 5), I can't see this not being announced by the holidays if not before.

[goodjay]

Originally Posted by Yearbook

It's so damn weak. If it's coming from Lionsgate Limited (the most obvious route), it's all but certain it'll hit the free shipping threshold. I've already sold off the current 4Ks, and the fact Cliff noted recently that the audio is done/conformed on 1-3 (probably no need to remaster 4 and 5), I can't see this not being announced by the holidays if not before.

just hearing about this new set coming with fixed auido and picture..so exciting

[PuppetMasterBlu]

I would still love to know about the transfer of Rambo 4. They used a film out and it's actually less detailed than the Blu-ray. I was hoping they would redo it but since no mention was made im guessing they are reusing the same transfer which is a bummer.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by jordanjabroni

RAMBO: FIRST BLOOD PART II

[SPOILER]2018 UK remaster:


2012 DE remaster:


Interesting comparison here. Despite being noticeably raised (& again soaked in teal), there is little-to-no improvement in terms of the actual visual information in the 2018 transfer. This again reaffirms that the black levels were just dragged up, rather than a new scan revealing more details in the darkness. Blacks are rich in the 2012, but do not obscure any of the detail (ramp, branches and containers).
med investigation.

So when you say there's no improvement in "actual visual information" on the 2018 here, I take it that the sky and the background don't count as "actual visual information"? Because they're nuked to shit on the older Blu.

As for this set in general, you do you but I had this same remastered set and didn't much care for it. I ain't saying that the UHDs are perfick, and the new US set will supersede all anyway, but there were some really weird things going on with the blu's compression whenever there's fire in First Blood, and the framing for Part II is badly off.

[Streamingsux]

So what makes it "4K" if it's less detailed than the blu-ray?

[jordanjabroni]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So when you say there's no improvement in "actual visual information" on the 2018 here, I take it that the sky and the background don't count as "actual visual information"? Because they're nuked to shit on the older Blu.

As for this set in general, you do you but I had this same remastered set and didn't much care for it. I ain't saying that the UHDs are perfick, and the new US set will supersede all anyway, but there were some really weird things going on with the blu's compression whenever there's fire in First Blood, and the framing for Part II is badly off.

In all fairness, I was just talking about the information in darkness to the left. I agree the horizon is quite a lot brighter, but the detail is still there - just that the white levels are higher. But as a fan of stronger whites and highlights anyway, personally I'm fine with it.

There is some odd stuff going on with First Blood in the 2012 for sure, things I cannot quite explain. When Rambo is stopped by Teasle and arrested, there's a weird ghosting effect at play. Now, in motion, it doesn't look anywhere near as bad as this screenshot - but it is there:

2018 UK remaster:



2012 DE remaster:



However, again for me this is the lesser of two sins. The 2018 is both severely raised on the black levels and far too bright on the red light. It's like someone overcranked the highlights and then some.

Yeah, I'm not trying to push this as some kind of revelation transfer wise for everyone, but just thought it would be interesting to compare the two while we wait for the proper 4K treatment. For me personally, this 2012 set has easily supplanted the 2018 remasters until that (hopefully) definitive collection materialises.

[Bumblefeet]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So when you say there's no improvement in "actual visual information" on the 2018 here, I take it that the sky and the background don't count as "actual visual information"? Because they're nuked to shit on the older Blu.

Not to mention that dog turned white from seeing Rambo.

[poke smot]

Let them talk about the Blu-ray. I bought the 4k of first blood. Sold it a week later and stuck with the Blu-ray. I never say a movie is too dark, but in the 4k I couldn't see the sling stick trap when it sticks in the guys upper thigh.

[jordanjabroni]

Originally Posted by Bumblefeet

Not to mention that dog turned white from seeing Rambo.

Wouldn't you?

[Driver78]

Would it be safe to get rid of that old Best Buy steelbook 4K set in anticipation of this new collection?

[Streamingsux]

Originally Posted by Driver78

Would it be safe to get rid of that old Best Buy steelbook 4K set in anticipation of this new collection?

Just speaking for myself but I'm not getting rid of anything yet..