Dark Force Entertainment Discussion Thread

[Sector Drone]

Who doesn't enjoy a good raping from their favorite labels every once in awhile?

[Damonstein]

I'm starting to feel like your icon toaster.

[nitin]

Ok I was wrong, it’s definitely Ruined.

[cropduster]

[Monroville]

Originally Posted by Damonstein

Bill literally complains about scalpers and then scalps his own products. I don't know how someone can defend him so vehemently. I want to live in the alternate universe where arrow is the label ruined arbitrarily decided to defend instead of code red/dark force.

Which is why Bill scalps his own products. He knows people are going to buy it up, and then resell on Ebay at double the price. I'm guessing he feels this will discourage scalpers from scalping him. Of course, if no one even buys it to begin with.. then you're just left with a house full of bru-lays.
________________________

As far as the "expensive cardboard box" thing goes.. I think the Germans have it down to an art. I love, love, love mediabooks (though it would be nice if, like the Korean versions, there was an english section or variation to purchase) and at E30 that is good for me.. provided the artwork and overall design is put together well.

So have a regular release at $15 to $20, with the special packaging at $25 to $40 (mediabook with CD and poster art, and maybe a Video Watchdog article to read while sitting on the John).

[Member-222782]

I've settled on Mediabooks as the perfect type of packaging for Collectors and the kind that closely replicates old-school Laserdiscs. One of the "perks" of LD were the size of the boxes, which had plenty of space for artwork and liner notes. I vastly prefer on-packaging graphics and art as opposed to booklets. Sadly, Mediabooks are a European thing and I don't see anyone in the States having enough vision to duplicate them here. The big-studio/corporate generic packaging standards still have a stronghold on US labels, even boutique ones. I would gladly fork over the extra dough for Mediabook/Digibook-style packaging.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Cinema84

I've settled on Mediabooks as the perfect type of packaging for Collectors and the kind that closely replicates old-school Laserdiscs. One of the "perks" of LD were the size of the boxes, which had plenty of space for artwork and liner notes. I vastly prefer on-packaging graphics and art as opposed to booklets. Sadly, Mediabooks are a European thing and I don't see anyone in the States having enough vision to duplicate them here. The big-studio/corporate generic packaging standards still have a stronghold on US labels, even boutique ones. I would gladly fork over the extra dough for Mediabook/Digibook-style packaging.

All true. There are some wonderful packages coming out in Germany. However, they do cost quite a bit more to make. The Az released ones sell for around 30 US, when they are on a nice Az sale, and not all hit that price, plus shipping. Most of them hover around 35 to 40. Then the NSM editions also only go below 35 if they are sold at the source, the scratch and dent ones. I don't know how they manage the cost to manufacture and then make a profit off the ones that sell for even 28, when you consider the cost of the film. NSM, piggybacking, is able to make a profit by not being the company to invest and by making their limited editions using other companies' discs, unlimited discs at that.

If our vendors, by some miracle, could make it work financially, and did that kind of packaging, they'd probably charge a similar price of 35 at the cheapest, most discounted price, not free shipping, and how many people would pay that? CR, VS, Scorpion, DF, etc. All these and more are actually the ones shelling out, first for the rights, then for the restoration. Mediabooks come from deals made with secondary vendors, much of the time, and the primary vendors are usually companies like GMBH or Koch or even Koch GMBH sublabel, I think it is, and they also put out big budget Hollywood movies. As to X Euro Cult, the unlimited regular releases are how they make their money. The media/digibooks are a way to get people to want the cheapy, when they can't afford the first version at 45 Euros.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by GasmaskAvenger

I'll never understand Ruined's hateboner for Arrow, as they (alongside Vinegar Syndrome) are the best in business.

It's not Arrow's product - which is usually good - it's the people behind the product. Bill is pretty much what you see is what you get, which is what I prefer. Arrow, not so much, and is often pretentious and shrewd despite pretending to be consumer friendly - let me give a few examples:

1. Arrow positions itself as an "elite" label, and usually can back that up with good product, but what happens when they screw up? Such as the Lakeshore releases, which were badly misframed? Can anyone imaging Criterion penning a page long blog post of excuses for why their obvious mistake is not a mistake instead of just fixing the issue??

2. Arrow appears to have shrewd and shady business practices. You've had multiple people who have worked with Arrow complain that they have done them wrong business wise. Calum Waddell being the most immediate example that comes to mind, but there have been others... like Arrow blaming Amazon for Arrow's own inability to get their shit together to get a product to Amazon timely when promised (remember The Apartment fiasco?). And what about the recent Django licensing issue? Can anyone imagine Criterion penning a press release angrily chiding Blue Underground if there was a licensing conflict?

3. I've interacted with some current and past members of the Arrow staff and sometimes experienced this same pretentious, holier-than-thou attitude.

4. I don't like the fact that they consistently price UK releases much lower than the US releases over time, simply because people in the US will pay more. People here complain about Bill "scalping his own product," well Arrow is basically doing the same thing for UK > US pricing, except its with every release not just one or two. This is like the same thing when drug companies charge people in the US more for the same drug because people in the US can pay it, not nice.

So those are some of my major gripes, mostly has nothing to do with the product and more with the people behind the product. And as a result, I don't give them a pass when they screw up like many others do because of the niceties of the product.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Ruined

It's not Arrow's product - which is usually good - it's the people behind the product. Bill is pretty much what you see is what you get, which is what I prefer. Arrow, not so much, and is often pretentious and shrewd despite pretending to be consumer friendly - let me give a few examples:

1. Arrow positions itself as an "elite" label, and usually can back that up with good product, but what happens when they screw up? Such as the Lakeshore releases, which were badly misframed? Can anyone imaging Criterion penning a page long blog post of excuses for why their obvious mistake is not a mistake instead of just fixing the issue??

2. Arrow appears to have shrewd and shady business practices. You've had multiple people who have worked with Arrow complain that they have done them wrong business wise. Calum Waddell being the most immediate example that comes to mind, but there have been others... like Arrow blaming Amazon for Arrow's own inability to get their shit together to get a product to Amazon timely when promised (remember The Apartment fiasco?). And what about the recent Django licensing issue? Can anyone imagine Criterion penning a press release angrily chiding Blue Underground if there was a licensing conflict?

3. I've interacted with some current and past members of the Arrow staff and sometimes experienced this same pretentious, holier-than-thou attitude.

4. I don't like the fact that they consistently price UK releases much lower than the US releases over time, simply because people in the US will pay more. People here complain about Bill "scalping his own product," well Arrow is basically doing the same thing for UK > US pricing, except its with every release not just one or two. This is like the same thing when drug companies charge people in the US more for the same drug because people in the US can pay it, not nice.

So those are some of my major gripes, mostly has nothing to do with the product and more with the people behind the product. And as a result, I don't give them a pass when they screw up like many others do because of the niceties of the product.

On 1, true, they haven't always handled their screw-ups in the best way, but, no one has, from what I've seen of the larger companies, so I can't blame them as much as I would, were it their common practice.

On 2, Those conflicts can get nasty. I'm not sure what Criterion would do if they believed someone was violating their license but I tend to think it wouldn't involve a friendly note and a box of See's.

On 3, I have only ever had contact with Arrow when making inquiries. Their representatives were always very polite and even genuinely nice to me. However, I'm a woman. We do tend to get better treatment, fair or not, as the man in my life likes to point out. When it is time to buy a car, I pick, he haggles. When it is time to have genuine, human interaction, he steps away and I handle it. So, however they treat others, I've had nothing but positive interaction with Arrow.

On 4, I'm sorry to have to admit to someone who hates this practice, I am one of the people who encourages them to continue to do that and thanks them for it, regularly. I can't afford Arrow releases, for the most part. Because they issue single disc releases in the UK and sell them via Az for a low price, around 10 pounds, if that, and then have their own private sales, for 7 and 8 pounds, tax-free and combined low-shipping charge, I am able to purchase from that company. They get thank you notes from me after big sales and releases of films with a low introductory price. I happen to think that Arrow's UK pricing is what makes them a good company. They sell, non-exclusively, via Az and their own website. I can order from anywhere in the US and receive quality goods for a price I can afford.

You can dislike them or find them lacking, at your choosing, but, keep in mind, many of us can't afford the US price and the UK limitations, given how people there are about what they are willing to spend, allow many of us to see things like the House I, II, III, IV collection for $25, no tax, flat shipping charge. I kind of love Arrow UK. (I don't deal with their US branch, generally.)

And, to bring it back to the point, DF is making a nice name for itself by making the choice to charge 20 for a release, when they could charge 30 and claim, "look how limited it is, so we're just going to price out the sad semi-poor people like miribeau". They'd be within their rights to charge whatever they want. $20 for the brand new release, including shipping, is like giving your customers a present and saying "Thank you for your business, please visit us again". That is what I feel I am getting with Arrow UK, every single time they have that huge sale of theirs and every time Az UK has a bunch of their titles at 9 pounds with Az's VAT discount, in a world where VAT is never added.

[frakking toaster]

[Profondo]

Originally Posted by Ruined

1. Arrow positions itself as an "elite" label

They never have done, the quotes and description are yours, and yours alone

Originally Posted by Ruined

but what happens when they screw up? Such as the Lakeshore releases, which were badly misframed? instead of just fixing the issue??

Like Code Red and Dark Force? Because they are superb at replacing faulty product!? Arrow's QA is heads above these days

Originally Posted by Ruined

Arrow appears to have shrewd and shady business practices. You've had multiple people who have worked with Arrow complain that they have done them wrong business wise. Calum Waddell being the most immediate example that comes to mind, but there have been others...

Nothing wrong with being shrewd in business, but your suggesting Arrow are "shady" really? And who are these "multiple people"? Because of the unhinged rantings of a former (freelance) staffer? - I've had Calum rant at me as I've came across him in my line of work, but as that was private, it shall stay so! You take his beef with Arrow to suit YOUR agenda!

Originally Posted by Ruined

I've interacted with some current and past members of the Arrow staff and sometimes experienced this same pretentious, holier-than-thou attitude.

There was issues with new staff and Customer Support but they have been consistently guid with few issues. Perhaps you're confusing them with the wonderful Customer Support you get from Code Red!?

Originally Posted by Ruined

I don't like the fact that they consistently price UK releases much lower than the US releases over time, simply because people in the US will pay more. People here complain about Bill "scalping his own product," well Arrow is basically doing the same thing for UK > US pricing, except its with every release not just one or two. This is like the same thing when drug companies charge people in the US more for the same drug because people in the US can pay it, not nice.

It costs them more to do business in the US and they ARE initially a UK company! The pound is at it's weakest level it has been in decades thanks to the cluster**** that is Brexit! Prices are pretty much the same, an Arrow "special edition" is $27 which works out at £20 for the UK edition. If you are getting a better deal it's because the $ is stronger than the £. Deal with it or import from the UK! Now you know how we in the UK feel when importing US media!

Originally Posted by Ruined

So those are some of my major gripes

We know because you churn it out on constant rotation!

[dawnofthediscs]

Originally Posted by Profondo

They never have done, the quotes and description are yours, and yours alone





Like Code Red and Dark Force? Because they are superb at replacing faulty product!? Arrow's QA is heads above these days




Nothing wrong with being shrewd in business, but your suggesting Arrow are "shady" really? And who are these "multiple people"? Because of the unhinged rantings of a former (freelance) staffer? - I've had Calum rant at me as I've came across him in my line of work, but as that was private, it shall stay so! You take his beef with Arrow to suit YOUR agenda!




There was issues with new staff and Customer Support but they have been consistently guid with few issues. Perhaps you're confusing them with the wonderful Customer Support you get from Code Red!?




It costs them more to do business in the US and they ARE initially a UK company! The pound is at it's weakest level it has been in decades thanks to the cluster**** that is Brexit! Prices are pretty much the same, an Arrow "special edition" is $27 which works out at £20 for the UK edition. If you are getting a better deal it's because the $ is stronger than the £. Deal with it or import from the UK! Now you know how we in the UK feel when importing US media!




We know because you churn it out on constant rotation!

You'll have to excuse Ruined, he's never seen a woman's breasts IRL

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by Profondo

It costs them more to do business in the US and they ARE initially a UK company! The pound is at it's weakest level it has been in decades thanks to the cluster**** that is Brexit! Prices are pretty much the same, an Arrow "special edition" is $27 which works out at £20 for the UK edition. If you are getting a better deal it's because the $ is stronger than the £. Deal with it or import from the UK! Now you know how we in the UK feel when importing US media!

Arrow's prices vary by vendor, with sales and the like, but, also, Arrow has incredible UK specific sales, which anyone from America can participate in. A 20 or 25 pounder becomes 10 or 12 dollars. That isn't because of the value of a dollar, it is, in large part, because UK citizens are choosier and less spendy than their American counterparts. We don't teach budgeting anymore, in America, sorry to say.

[kraven]

Originally Posted by miribeau

Arrow's prices vary by vendor, with sales and the like, but, also, Arrow has incredible UK specific sales, which anyone from America can participate in. A 20 or 25 pounder becomes 10 or 12 dollars. That isn't because of the value of a dollar, it is, in large part, because UK citizens are choosier and less spendy than their American counterparts. We don't teach budgeting anymore, in America, sorry to say.

I love how you just pull this stuff right out of your ass!

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by kraven

I love how you just pull this stuff right out of your ass!

I take it you have not participated in their yearly clearance events? People post about them on the boards every time they happen. At the last one, about 2/5 of my order were the coveted special editions and my most expensive title was twelve dollars. I'm sorry you missed it but they do them at least once a year. Also Hamilton Books. You might want to look into that.

[kraven]

Originally Posted by miribeau

I take it you have not participated in their yearly clearance events? People post about them on the boards every time they happen. At the last one, about 2/5 of my order were the coveted special editions and my most expensive title was twelve dollars. I'm sorry you missed it but they do them at least once a year. Also Hamilton Books. You might want to look into that.

None of that has anything to do with how you are now pretending to be an expert in the buying practices of the UK consumer.

Let me guess this is the part where you type a book about how after working as a nurse and running your family business, you wanted to get away for a while so you moved to London for 7 years to study the buying practices of physical media abroad! 2+2=5 and that's how you know CR has the best product in town!

[Profondo]

Originally Posted by miribeau

Arrow's prices vary by vendor, with sales and the like, but, also, Arrow has incredible UK specific sales, which anyone from America can participate in. A 20 or 25 pounder becomes 10 or 12 dollars. That isn't because of the value of a dollar, it is, in large part, because UK citizens are choosier and less spendy than their American counterparts. We don't teach budgeting anymore, in America, sorry to say.

The prices I quoted were from Amazon themselves (not marketplace), with no discounts. I outlined that the prices are pretty much equal with US vs UK which exposes Ruined's hyperbolic agenda!

Originally Posted by Ruined

And what about the recent Django licensing issue? Can anyone imagine Criterion penning a press release angrily chiding Blue Underground if there was a licensing conflict?

I forgot to quote on this doozy! There was dozens upon dozens of posts on here - "Arrow is lying" "Arrow should be truthful" "Arrow should just come clean" yet when Arrow DO release a statement about the situation, this is somehow a problem!? Or would you prefer they do as Code Red? Think Vinegar Syndrome = Mausoleum!?

[Ruined]

People in the US shouldn't have to participate in a Arrow UK sale to get a similar/good price when Arrow US exists. The price should be at least relatively close but thats definitely not the case. Maybe it is more expensive to license for the US or maybe it's because of MVD doing distro - or maybe they charge US customers more because they will pay it, but reality is Arrow could normalize pricing between US/UK but they choose not to and instead charge US customers much more for literally the same product minus a ratings logo.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Profondo

I forgot to quote on this doozy! There was dozens upon dozens of posts on here - "Arrow is lying" "Arrow should be truthful" "Arrow should just come clean" yet when Arrow DO release a statement about the situation, this is somehow a problem!? Or would you prefer they do as Code Red? Think Vinegar Syndrome = Mausoleum!?

They should have just said "due to an unforseen licensing issue" and left BU out of it. That would have been the most professional way to handle it instead of throwing others under the bus.

Code Red also does this but they dont pretend to be some classy Criterion-like label like arrow does, and that is the big difference.

I mean Arrow goes around proclaiming their elite status with high priced fancy pants packaging and arrow academy releases, but then when something goes wrong with A/V, business deals, etc they act like Code Red? Thats the definition of being pretentious.

If you want to model Criterion the professional behavior shouldn't end when a faulty product ships to retailers or some business or logistical mishap occurs. You take ownership for the problem and fix it instead of blaming everyone but yourself.

[miribeau]

Originally Posted by kraven

None of that has anything to do with how you are now pretending to be an expert in the buying practices of the UK consumer.

Let me guess this is the part where you type a book about how after working as a nurse and running your family business, you wanted to get away for a while so you moved to London for 7 years to study the buying practices of physical media abroad! 2+2=5 and that's how you know CR has the best product in town!

Being able to read statistics, basic sales figures, and then talk to some British guy on the phone hardly makes me an expert on UK consumers. It makes me someone who can still use the landline and repeat what I have learned. You don't have to be an expert to be able to share information with people, even people who get very upset when others share information.

For the record, I never claimed to be an expert on UK consumers or their buying habits. I claimed only the knowledge I shared with you. As I've told many people here and elsewhere, the telephone and email are among your greatest tools. Use them to contact people when you are curious about an issue. People love to talk about their work, when they are stuck there and don't have a ton to do. If you call Arrow, it is the same as with Fox. They have people who are happy to tell you what is going on.

Arrow's sales are very popular and are increasing in popularity among American patrons, who read about them here but who can also sign up for email alert service, by Arrow themselves. They see a steady increase every year in US patrons ordering during those sales and I highly recommend them to anyone in the low income brackets, like me.

And then, once again, it comes back to prices. With the recent DF launch, followed by a second launch, they went out of their way to set prices that are fully ten dollars below the average new Shout release. That is how you win customers, not the only way, but a good one.