Optimizing 3D's potential using Darbee Video Processors

[grodd]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

These are the ones I will be using:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Monoprice-C...72.m2749.l2649

Yea I would go for it.

[schiltzamania]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

So a 10-feet hdmi cable is most likely a bad idea?

My output cable is a 25 ft monoprice and I had no issues with the Darbee.

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[grodd]

Originally Posted by shield80

And if they who made DR Strange wanted you to have that detail they would have done so LOL and they didn't, why didn't they when they can do it.

That's not how the Darbee works. It's not about just upping the sharpness or simple post-processing contrast boosting. Otherwise I could just adjust the controls on my TV and crank it up.

It's their own proprietary contrast process that works differently than the sharpness setting with far less of the disadvantages. Some calibrators like it, some don't.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by grodd

it's their own proprietary contrast process that works differently .

:d

[shield80]

Originally Posted by grodd

That's not how the Darbee works. It's not about just upping the sharpness or simple post-processing contrast boosting. Otherwise I could just adjust the controls on my TV and crank it up.

It's their own proprietary contrast process that works differently than the sharpness setting with far less of the disadvantages. Some calibrators like it, some don't.

I know how it works, but still, with a good projector or tv you don't need it, the sharpness control in the tv works differently then darbee this I know but still it looks unnatural to me and some scenes it will look too contrasty when it shouldn't look too contrasty.

It is shifting the black levels to think you get a more detail picture

Darbee gives the illusion of more detail as it only lifts some of the images. BUT IT IS AN ILLUSION

but anyway if you like that is good

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by shield80

I know how it works, but still, with a good projector or tv you don't need it, the sharpness control in the tv works differently then darbee this I know but still it looks unnatural to me and some scenes it will look too contrasty when it shouldn't look too contrasty.

It is shifting the black levels to think you get a more detail picture

Darbee gives the illusion of more detail as it only lifts some of the images. BUT IT IS AN ILLUSION

but anyway if you like that is good

Isn't that what Dynamic Contrast in Oled tv does?

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[shield80]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

Isn't that what Dynamic Contrast in Oled tv does?

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DC is adding something to the picture that is not there, Darbee is shifting the picture,so no not the same

[grodd]

Originally Posted by shield80

I know how it works, but still, with a good projector or tv you don't need it, the sharpness control in the tv works differently then darbee this I know but still it looks unnatural to me and some scenes it will look too contrasty when it shouldn't look too contrasty.

It is shifting the black levels to think you get a more detail picture

Darbee gives the illusion of more detail as it only lifts some of the images. BUT IT IS AN ILLUSION

but anyway if you like that is good

I would hope everyone here knows here knows its not adding any resolution. By upping the contrast around imagery it makes fine details more visible.

Lumagen for example tends to be the bar for video processing. They also come with a Darbee built in. Would anyone say, well why didn't the director just use a Lumagen to make his picture better. Of course not, because they also use their own post upscaling and sharpening techniques that's superior to others without the nasty halo so often seen. (Lumagen of course also adds calibration options etc)

I see a lot of confusion on sharpening in general here. Although I can understand why. Because when its baked in poorly, it can be spotted easy without any side-by-side. There are a lot of techniques and products that add fine detail. Some worry about any post processing sharpening, but really usually don't understand the range of how the details and post processes work.

Likely they would never notice a good sharpening technique from a movie that never had any post-sharpening.

With that said I understand sometimes the Darbee (especially if you are closer to the TV) can look harsh. While it does have a 1 point tweaking system some will find even after they tweak it, that its not to their liking.

[shield80]

Just seen this post over on AVForums from Bumptious (Steve):

" Had a chance to really test one of these during the calibration of Andyz1 Panasonic VT50.

These are my observations.

Before we started we looked at what this unit did.

Using a Quantum Data 780 reference signal generator, I fed the output from that directly into the Derbee and the output into the TV. Firstly was a sharpness test pattern. The TV’s sharpness control was set to off and I moved the TV’s sharpness control from 0 to 10 and it added edge white haloing (artificial edge enhancement). Then set that back to 0 and turned the Darbee on and moved its control from 0 to 120. The pattern did not alter one jot. Wow clever.

I have a number of reference bit map test cards on the 780. Test Card W is the wide screen version of the famous one with the girl playing noughts and crosses with a clown, the second one used is a widescreen version of a Philips 5644. Adjusting the Darbee through its range with the Philips test card again changed nothing, but things got interesting using test card W. All the patterns did not alter in any way, but the picture inside the circle changed substantially.

Basically AVI is right in what this unit is doing. It’s NOT adding sharpness, it’s shifting black shading, and the effect depends on the brightness levels of that shading. It makes the darker shading darker and raises the lighter parts.
It seems to be engaging in the mid IRE levels of the image say between 30 and 80 IRE.

Establishing that I then took out of box measurements of the TV’s greyscale, gamma, and gamut without the Darbee engaged and then set at its maximum. Both sets of readings were identical.

Having established what the Darbee was doing, I then calibrated the set without the Darbee engaged.

Once the set was calibrated to reference I then put Sky through the Derbee and tweaked the TV’s saturation and sharpness control (+2) and then engaged the Darbee.

Now I’m going to try and explain simply as articulately as I can what I observed.

This unit is NOT ADDING anything, but it is shifting things. It’s certainly NOT adding or bringing out any more detail. YOU CANT ADD IN WHAT IS NOT THERE. As stated it’s shifting black levels. It acts like a dynamic range expander but only with certain elements of the picture.

I have racked my brain how to articulate the effect, try this. Imagine a grid of 100 squares. (pixels) and you place 100 sheets of paper lined up on the grid (1:1 pixel mapping). Now take 20 of these perfectly flat and lined up sheets and screw them up into a ball. Then unravel them and place them back on the grid. They will stand out BUT won’t quite line up into their box (pixel).

Now because these pixels are being subjecting to some processing and others are not I was seeing a slight drop in resolution in these areas, even though your eyes appear to being tricked into seeing more detail. The more you add the more SD and unmapped it looks.

The Lumagen has a contrast expander but it works over the whole picture, many TV’s do too. The Darbee is different as it gives the illusion of more detail as it only lifts some of the image. BUT IT IS AN ILLUSION I had my Lumagen with me and tried it on a frozen frame of a football match. The Darbee lifted the crowd out and other black shading including black content in the grass so it looked like its lifting detail, but remember it is not adding detail, it is shifting elements of the image. The Lumagen lifted the whole image, for me, neither is desirable, but many of you will like it. The Lumagen retains the detail but makes the image too contrasty, certainly on this plasma, however I seeing working well on budget level projectors.

I can clarify that it DOES NOT have any adverse effects on a calibration; you should calibrate the panel without it then add it in after.

It’s not adding colour or taking it away, it doesn’t really shift colour it but can look like it does. That is with HD content; it makes a mess of SD content and makes it look seriously processed and nasty.

With Blu Ray it has the same effect as HD but because IT IS playing with perfect pixel mapping of some of the information for me it make things look to contrasty in places where it shouldn’t be. But some of you will like that. Just like Pioneers DRE, when I completed one of these I gave people the opportunity of choosing to have it set to off, or low. The mix of people who wanted it on was 50-50

To sum up, it’s clever, but it’s not for everyone. It’s like Marmite, you either love it or hate it.

AVI has it right, so does David McKenzie.

Would I recommend it, some will like it so YES, would I have one, NO.

My advice, tries one, and if you don’t like it send it back under distance selling

[grodd]

Sharpness is improved by adding contrast. Yes no extra resolution is added.
That's how all post process sharping techniques work, some better than others.
By upping the contrast around edge imagery it makes fine details more visible.



If you are looking for a far better more detailed write up, here you go.


http://www.hdfever.fr/2015/04/21/tes...e-dvp-5100cie/
The site has some other great Darbee articles as well.

Its in French so use google translate.

[shield80]

Originally Posted by grodd

Sharpness is improved by adding contrast. Yes no extra resolution is added.
That's how all post process sharping techniques work, some better than others.
By upping the contrast around edge imagery it makes fine details more visible.



If you are looking for a far better more detailed write up, here you go.


http://www.hdfever.fr/2015/04/21/tes...e-dvp-5100cie/
The site has some other great Darbee articles as well.

It is not for me either I'm sitting 1m from it or 4m still looks unnatural

But enjoy your Darbee

From Soundandvision some of it

Bottom Line
The Darblet does change the look of incoming images, so what you see is further from what exists on Blu-ray than closer


So for me, I wanted it like the director made.nothing more nothing less

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...video-enhancer

[RockyIII]

So would I be better off with darbee or lumagen for 100" display HD projector?

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[shield80]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

So would I be better off with darbee or lumagen for 100" display HD projector?

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For 100 and up it tends to get a little softer picture with projectors but tries it anyway, who knows.

[grodd]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

So would I be better off with darbee or lumagen for 100" display HD projector?

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A Lumagen is best for everything although it also has the Darbee built in so you can use both their upscaling and the Darbee ontop.

Lumagen also has a 4K model as well. Not cheap......

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by grodd

A Lumagen is best for everything although it also has the Darbee built in so you can use both their upscaling and the Darbee ontop.

Lumagen also has a 4K model as well. Not cheap......

I'll go with darbee for $80. Thanks!

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[schiltzamania]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

So would I be better off with darbee or lumagen for 100" display HD projector?

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With a 106" screen, the darbee, and BenQ ht2050 the darbee is definitely noticeable

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[Joe D.]

I have mine set to 72, not 82 as I kept on writing. Been a while since I took notice since both settings end with "2".

I used to increase it to 82 for 3D only.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by Joe D.

I have mine set to 72, not 82 as I kept on writing. Been a while since I took notice since both settings end with "2".

I used to increase it to 82 for 3D only.

72 for all content?

[Joe D.]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

72 for all content?

Hi Rocky,

I have multiple settings on my monitor so what is used for Blu-ray and cable (custom) is different from what is used for DVD (standard). The thx optimizer was applied for DVD which made for the different basic user settings (kept advanced the same). So for most, 72 is fine though there is still the temptation to increase it to 82 for 3D for increased detail and slight bit more dimension however that does also risk the chance of slight crosstalk so I don't.

I do reduce the darbee down to 61 for those rare titles with excessive grain. It is a let down because there is loss in detail doing that.

Since I also record DVDs from tv, I use the full pop mode for that and VHS, while retaining the 72 setting.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by Joe D.

Hi Rocky,

I have multiple settings on my monitor so what is used for Blu-ray and cable (custom) is different from what is used for DVD (standard). The thx optimizer was applied for DVD which made for the different basic user settings (kept advanced the same). So for most, 72 is fine though there is still the temptation to increase it to 82 for 3D for increased detail and slight bit more dimension however that does also risk the chance of slight crosstalk so I don't.

I do reduce the darbee down to 61 for those rare titles with excessive grain. It is a let down because there is loss in detail doing that.

Since I also record DVDs from tv, I use the full pop mode for that and VHS, while retaining the 72 setting.

I will follow those same general guidelines and see how it does on my new projector.
I am also getting a cheap 4K player so that I can take full advantage of the higher disc bitrate and Dolby Atmos track which most standard blurays lack. So between the 4K downsampling and Darbee, the overall picture should definetely look better than if just using the bare projector