Suspiria (1977) (Remastered)

[Shingster]

You must live a very charmed life if you think this thread is aggresive, in fact it seems to be a very common thing on these boards that if someone challenges an opinion or calls someone out they're getting too aggressive. But I agree that this discussion has run its course.

[zbinks]

Originally Posted by Braktastic

If that's the case, then I could see why Synapse won't come right out and say what their reference material is in the face of their competition having, you know, actual reference material.

I'm under the impression that Synapse has access to an I.B. Technicolor print, although I haven't seen a definitive yay or nay, thus far.

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

Actually, cinematographer Luciano Tovoli supervised the atrocious 2007 color timing, not the color timing on the new German Blu-ray. All that work was done by Torsten Kaiser working from the 2007 HDCAM-SR master tape. Torsten used an I.B. Technicolor print on loan from the BFI as a guide, and I believe Synapse Films is also working on getting access to an I.B. Technicolor print for reference.

Chris

Originally Posted by David M

As far as I know, Synapse's reference IS an IB Technicolor print, and they arrived at the grading decisions they did through extensive research. Which is why I'm puzzled as to the difference in look on this latest release. You'd have to ask Synapse for an official answer though.

Christian Muth did introduce a new wrinkle to this debate, yesterday, that seems to have gone unnoticed, thus far.

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

The *ENTIRE* TLE version doesn't have the ugly green cast, but many scenes do, and SUSPIRIA has never looked like that before until their version. The flat/lack-of-contrast look to many scenes is also troubling, given what the makers of the film have said time and time again re: its intended look, with Tovoli even going so far as to alter the I.B. Technicolor printing process at Technicolor Rome in order to increase the contrast and saturation of the I.B. Tech prints that were made there (where he obviously had the most control, as opposed to say Technicolor London, which was also printing in the I.B. process in 1977, but I doubt they'd have been as attuned to Tovoli's intentions as the lab in Rome was where he lived and was closely involved with the process).

Chris

I guess the real questions are "Which I.B. Technicolor prints are definitive and who has access to those prints?"

[Mahadeva]

Hey Christian, still waiting for you to answer to my question.

[stigdu]

this film was rubbish the blood was way too pink and i don't know any guide dogs that have attacked and killed their owners also the main actress was not sexy at all. I did quite like the music though it reminded me of music from another film called dawn of the living dead.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by stigdu

this film was rubbish the blood was way too pink and i don't know any guide dogs that have attacked and killed their owners also the main actress was not sexy at all. I did quite like the music though it reminded me of music from another film called dawn of the living dead.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

LOL.

One thing's for sure though, this is the most refreshing post in here since the beginning of this heated discussion.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Whether we like it or not, until somone can explain how the IB Tech used for the TLE Restoration might be too green, or can explain how the TLE Restoration actually doesn't accurately represent the IB Tech, we fans have to assume that the TLE Restoration is currently the most unbiased presentation of Suspiria in high definition - and by unbiased I mean in the sense that it matches what in theory should be the most accurate reference print for the colour scheme, free of personal interpretation - and that someone must of felt the print was accurate if a digital archive of it was considered necessary.

This is it exactly.

I don't think anyone is saying the TLE is absolutely, definitely correct, just that it has a mass of evidence and the weight of TLE/Torsten's reputation behind it, which has been backed up by comprehensive and detailed explanations of how the colour timing was arrived at, along with pics showing the actual film they were using. In comparison, we've had absolutely zero from Synapse on how they reached their decision.

We can't know anything for sure, but we have to go with the best evidence we have.

[Pecker]

RE:

Originally Posted by Shingster

This is probably a good point to re-post a link to the infamous Robert Harris post on the myth of dye transfer printing for the sake of fairness & providing a counter argument for how IB Tech prints can become an inaccurate reference.

An interesting point RAH makes in that post:

While a normal, run of the mill, dye transfer print can usually provide a general concept of densities, it cannot be used for color.


For The Godfather, with the cooperation of The Academy Archive, we were able to access the final approved Answer Print of the film for which cinematographer Gordon Willis had signed off. This was the print that he had screened and approved in 1972 via carbon arc projection (yet another anomaly) and which had retained its color.

Whilst the language used is slightly different, Torsten has mentioned using a 'master print' (sorry, master something, I'd need to look it up) which appears to correspond to an 'approved answer print' in its use, as described. I'm making a fairly reasonable assumption that the 'master' is the one against which others are (supposed to be) matched. I'm happy to be corrected.

[JMDiaz718]

Originally Posted by stigdu

this film was rubbish the blood was way too pink and i don't know any guide dogs that have attacked and killed their owners also the main actress was not sexy at all. I did quite like the music though it reminded me of music from another film called dawn of the living dead.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

This is one of those movies, that I've always struggled to watch. Watched it in full, in three separate sittings. Always found it boring, over the top and just dumb. I also HATE the score.

It IS a beautifully shot movie. But that's not enough, for me to own it.

Oh, and the guide dog,

[Show spoiler]was under witch control

, when it attacked the blind dude.

[WaverBoy]

Originally Posted by JMDiaz718

This is one of those movies, that I've always struggled to watch. Watched it in full, in three separate sittings. Always found it boring, over the top and just dumb. I also HATE the score.

It IS a beautifully shot movie. But that's not enough, for me to own it.

Oh, and the guide dog,

[Show spoiler]was under witch control

, when it attacked the blind dude.

Stigdu was kidding.

[Matt89]

Originally Posted by JMDiaz718

This is one of those movies, that I've always struggled to watch. Watched it in full, in three separate sittings. Always found it boring, over the top and just dumb. I also HATE the score.

It IS a beautifully shot movie. But that's not enough, for me to own it.

Oh, and the guide dog,

[Show spoiler]was under witch control

, when it attacked the blind dude.

Um, the movie is meant to be over the top, excessive and ridiculous. Most giallos are. Suspiria is really no different.

~Matt

[MisterFantastic]

I haven't been in this thread in a long time, but as someone who hasn't been that involved with this debacle, the Italian restoration looks like a great upgrade from it's caps. More natural film grain/detail, and the contrast is much more natural and subdued.

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by Matt89

Um, the movie is meant to be over the top, excessive and ridiculous. Most giallos are. Suspiria is really no different.

~Matt

Wrong genre and wrong plural, inc rage post from someone or another in 3...2....1...

[Mpmarks1975]

I'd ask Dario when I meet him at the weekend, but 1. He would call security, and 2. Probably have no clue what I'm talking about. Probably have more luck asking Barbara Magnolfi!

[Shingster]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Whilst the language used is slightly different, Torsten has mentioned using a 'master print' (sorry, master something, I'd need to look it up) which appears to correspond to an 'approved answer print' in its use, as described. I'm making a fairly reasonable assumption that the 'master' is the one against which others are (supposed to be) matched. I'm happy to be corrected.

Yes, I can't remember the exact terminolgoy used either and the Italian release thread has gotten so long it's just a pain to try and find specific postings, but I remember the implication from Torsten was that this was an accurate IB Tech print. Either that or we read too much into what he was saying!

[Mpmarks1975]

Page 114 had a good summary -
Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE View Post

To clarify this very important issue: So, NO guesswork, instead extensive knowledge and also the long-year professional experience (in my case more than 35 years) in working with the various materials and knowing how they degrade is key to provide the groundwork for the very wide field of different aspects that need to follow when for instance an answer print would not bring all the "answers".

So, just a few of those aspects:

Can Answer Prints fade: Yes, many can. Eastman Prints can be a problem. In this particular case, however, the AP is Technicolor Dye Transfer, where this IS NOT a problem as the metal-based colors are literally printed on the base and DO NOT FADE. The base itself can degrade, but this does not affect the colors to any significant degree. That is why the AP, which was in reasonably good condition still, in this case was very useful and the "answers" its provided confirmed 100% the palette of Technicolor Dye Transfers made in the late 1970s - in other words: no extra photochemical adjustments re: color palette were made.

What Danny was referring to re: "taken into account" is that in our (TLEFilms FRPS) field of profession the following would be applicable even if an Eastman AP would be faded to a more signifcant degree: We then could still, based on the knowledge and experience we have with these materials, clearly determine based on how the materials degrade over the years, its precise colors in accordance with the various, respective color palette. So, more science, no guessing. It would, in fact, be a huge problem in our work if a subjective thinking re: true restoration / preservation would be applied. Nobody in his/her right mind would alter the original look and status of the MONA LISA. Here, restorers/preservationists would research in every, even the most minute detail every aspect of what colors and canvas were used, what they consist of, how they, respectively, react with each other and their respective level of degradation and how the environmental setting affected the picture, etc. In our work, the same MUST APPLY and be upheld.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torsten Kaiser TLE View Post


One fundamental difference to the work that we do (TLEFilms FRPS was asked to do the restoration on behalf of the film's world-rights owner) and main aim of it in every respect would be that the priority and eventual outcome/the end result is not a Blu-ray release/master - in fact, this would be "just a by-product", but the very PRESERVATION of this film itself that must reflect the original presentation with precise accuracy well beyond Blu-ray or even 4K UHD quality levels. The reason is to insure that even the generations of viewers in the decades to come and beyond have a reliable, identical image and sound that represent what was made in 1977, be it in theaters, on TV or physical media, regardless of the nature and make.

This means that the workflow, which made use of the 4K anamorphic scan of the (partially very fragile) original picture negative and intermediate negative elements but also exclusively IP sections as well such as titles and parts of the feature did not allow room for interpretations, subjective impressions or deviation from the original of any kind. As a consequence, absolute accuracy in relation to the original creation (in this case the Technicolor Reference Dye Transfer Master Positive of the 1977 theatrical release) of this film production is MANDATORY together with the reliability, responsibility and accountability that come with it.

So, regardless of the subject or looks and whether we like it the way they were made or not, we have to make absolutely sure that the result - the restored presentation - represents the original presentation in every detail. Very intensive research, background knowledge of the photochemical basics and well beyond as well as lots of detailed knowledge of the various stages of production/post-production and the chemical changes the materials were exposed to over the decades are, as one would imagine, also key in this equation - and much more.
In the case of SUSPIRIA, the work took more than a year to complete.

[Matt89]

Originally Posted by cakefactory

Wrong genre and wrong plural, inc rage post from someone or another in 3...2....1...

Wrong plural sure (gialli, sorry) but wrong genre? Just because it isn't your typical giallo doesn't mean it isn't one at all. It's a giallo with a supernatual edge. There's still someone/something going around killing off members of the dance academy. Murder sequences are set up the same way as a giallo, chase scenes are similar. The only addition is the supernatural aspect. Everything else screams giallo.

~Matt

[cakefactory]

Originally Posted by Matt89

Wrong plural sure (gialli, sorry) but wrong genre? Just because it isn't your typical giallo doesn't mean it isn't one at all. It's a giallo with a supernatual edge. There's still someone/something going around killing off members of the dance academy. Murder sequences are set up the same way as a giallo, chase scenes are similar. The only addition is the supernatural aspect. Everything else screams giallo.

~Matt

The consensus seems to be that it's definitely not one and that it's just a supernatural horror movie, though what you say is all accurate. I think he just couldn't help himself and stuck in his same kind of murder scenes. He even plagiarized himself with that razor trying to open the lock scene!

Why it is definitely not one and say, "All the Colors of the Dark" definitely is makes things a bit confusing.

[sjconstable]

Originally Posted by cakefactory

Why it is definitely not one and say, "All the Colors of the Dark" definitely is makes things a bit confusing.

Only if you never made it to the end and saw the revelation? There's nothing supernatural in All the Colours of the Dark.

[KCota15]

Can this thread be locked until an actual development happens?

[Mpmarks1975]

Originally Posted by KCota15

Can this thread be locked until an actual development happens?

Keep your eye on the fb page I'm sure they will post there first.