Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by Texan26

Part of the revenue they make on current movie sales helps pay to maintain my collection and improve the Vudu site. Just like when Best Buy remodels or maintains their store, they're not going to charge me a fee to enter the store to help maintain and remodel the store. They get that money off the revenue they are currently making.

Studios are profit driven entities. If they can ease you into paying some sort of subscription fee to maintain your digital library they will. I'm beginning to think that VUDU's current disc to digital program that works with smart phones is the beginning of this. Get a bunch of people to convert their movie collections to digital for $2. Couple that with the abundant flurry of websites selling new release codes for as low as $3 and within the next five years you have millions of people with hundreds and hundreds of movies in their collections. That will make it a very easy sell to get people to jump on board a maintenance subscription of some type because they will want to ensure that they do not lose anything or have to watch ads.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

Millions of people watch their Blu Rays and DVDs through video game systems and all of those are connected to the internet.

None of my video game systems or Blu-ray players are connected to the internet. I've specifically avoided the Xbox One because it has a one-time internet connection requirement, none of the other consoles have that.

While it's true that millions of people watch everything on internet connected devices there are millions of other people that don't. Even if that group is just 10-20% of customers the studios would lose billions by ignoring them.

Most of that market is extremely hard to quantify because they aren't talking about not using the internet on the internet.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

None of my video game systems or Blu-ray players are connected to the internet. I've specifically avoided the Xbox One because it has a one-time internet connection requirement, none of the other consoles have that.

While it's true that millions of people watch everything on internet connected devices there are millions of other people that don't. Even if that group is just 10-20% of customers the studios would lose billions by ignoring them.

What's the point of having a modern video game system that's not connected to the internet? No firmware updates, no multiplayer, no downloadable content. You are definitely in the minority. Not to mention the fact that the majority of games released even on disc these days require an internet connection to be playable.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

What's the point of having a modern video game system that's not connected to the internet? No firmware updates, no multiplayer, no downloadable content. You are definitely in the minority. Not to mention the fact that the majority of games released even on disc require an internet connection to be playable.

That is absolutely not true. I've played all the way through about 60 games on my Playstation 4 without ever connecting it to the internet. I've never had a major problem with any of them. It's a misconception that because patches exist games don't work well without them.

I can't find the exact numbers but from what I last heard about 10% of Playstation 4s were used offline. It's definitely the minority, but it's still millions of consoles.

And firmware updates are included on the discs of games that require them.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

That is absolutely not true. I've played all the way through about 60 games on my Playstation 4 without ever connecting it to the internet. I've never had a major problem with any of them. It's a misconception that because patches exist that games don't work well without them.

I can't find the exact numbers but from what I last heard about 30% of Playstation 4s were used offline. It's technically the minority, but it's not a small amount of customers by any means.

And firmware updates are included on the discs of games that require them.

I guess I am playing different games than you are. I have a PS3 and every game I've ever bought for that system has required the internet in some form or another. Not to mention the fact that I have to be signed into Playstation Network to even be able to access anything. If not it gets stuck on a screen because it's attempting to connect. If PS4 has somehow made the internet no-longer mandatory to play games or access your account information that's pretty extraordinary!

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I guess I am playing different games than you are. I have a PS3 and every game I've ever bought for that system has required the internet in some form or another.

Did you try playing them without an internet connection? Or did they just pop up with patch downloads and you assumed those were mandatory?

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Did you try playing them without an internet connection?

Yes it gets stuck because it's trying to connect to Playstation Network. For PS3 you have to connect to access anything. In my experience many games are not complete when they are first released. It's like getting half a game out of the case and the rest is updates and DLC.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

Yes it gets stuck because it's trying to connect to Playstation Network. For PS3 you have to connect to access anything.

I have never needed to connect to Playstation Network to play a disc based game on PS3 or PS4. I don't even have a Playstation Network account. Sometimes they mention that they can't connect to Playstation Network but I just press O and continue on without any problems.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

I have never needed to connect to Playstation Network to play a disc based game on PS3 or PS4. I don't even have a Playstation Network account. Sometimes they mention that they can't connect to Playstation Network but I just press O and continue on without any problems.

I'm guessing it's because you have never had an account so you've never updated the firmware or anything, so maybe that's why you have the press O workaround. That doesn't do the the trick for me. PS3 has updated so many times over the years I bet there were a lot of great little offline features you could do that an updated one fully connected simply cannot anymore. I have even had some Blu Rays stop playing on my PS3 after recent updates that always played before.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I'm guessing it's because you have never had an account so you've never updated the firmware or anything, so maybe that's why you have the press O workaround. That doesn't do the the trick for me. PS3 has updated so many times over the years I bet there were a lot of great little offline features you could do that an updated one fully connected simply cannot anymore.

As I previously mentioned all games that need a firmware update come with one on the disc. My PS3 firmware is currently 4.70 (the latest version is 4.76).

I'm absolutely positive your doing something wrong if you can't play your disc based games offline.

Do you have any of these games on disc? If so, give me an example and tell me exactly where it hangs when you're offline.

https://www.blu-ray.com/community/co...&categoryid=16

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

As I previously mentioned all games that need a firmware update come with one on the disc. My PS3 firmware is currently 4.70 (the latest version is 4.76).

I'm absolutely positive your doing something wrong if you can't play your disc based games offline.

Do you have any of these games on disc? If so, give me an example and tell me exactly where it hangs when you're offline.

https://www.blu-ray.com/community/co...&categoryid=16

It's not just firmware updates though. The games themselves require the internet for updates to access in game features and a host of other little things that were not ironed out before the disc released. Most firmware updates are system based. No games these days ship complete out of the box with all the features on the disc. It's done digitally online so that people will purchase in game content and connect to correct developer bugs and stuff. On top of that every game I bought for PS3 goes through a lengthy install process and often needs to connect to Playstation Network because of updates. It is for this reason that buying a game digitally vs physically on disc offers very little difference. You still have to install the games either way and in-order to get updates and new content (often needed) you have to go online! When my PS3 first boots up it is trying to access Playstation Network. If I am not connected to the internet it locks up and doesn't allow me to access anything. It doesn't matter what game I have inside the system. The games don't load till after the system connects to my Playstation Account.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

It's not just firmware updates though. The games themselves require the internet for updates to access in game features and a host of other little things that were not ironed out before the disc released. Most firmware updates are system based. No games these days ship complete out of the box with all the features on the disc. It's done digitally online so that people will purchase in game content and connect to correct developer bugs and stuff.

They are minor features and fixes. I've never encountered a game that didn't work great without any patches.

[zodwriter]

I'm going to buy a PS4 sometime this year. I can't wait to try it out of the box without internet and see how successful I am with the games.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I'm going to buy a PS4 sometime this year. I can't wait to try it out of the box without internet and see how successful I am with the games.

I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

But all the studios aren't going to try to implement DRM in their discs simultaneously. If one studio tries it then then they will have lower sales. Other studios will see that and they won't follow suit. Any company can institute complete control over their products but if that doesn't make them more money then they won't do it.

I think there are far more people that wouldn't buy discs with online requirements than you think. Most of those people just aren't talking about it online.

Originally Posted by zodwriter

That's not the point. Currently VUDU does not charge you a fee to maintain your collection or watch movies without ads. Subscription services are proving to be very successful digital platforms. With VUDU and other digital retailers this is something that will likely happen when studios decide they can make more money off of people with existing libraries. Especially if people have a bunch of movies in their collections that are no-longer being sold in the storefront. As it's been pointed out in this thread many times nobody is going to maintain your collections forever without some kind of cost to the account holder.

Studios are not the Bad Guys, all they want is for people to enjoy and buy their Movies. VHS started the whole Collecting cycle, and DVD and Blu-ray made it better. Now we have moved on to Digital HD, but people still want to hold on to their Discs because of some form of Ownership. Believe me the Studios are working on some form of Digital Ownership. That's why I keep going back to Secure Media Servers, where you can store your Collection just like your Discs. With Full Rights, and they won't be taken away.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Studios are not the Bad Guys, all they want is for people to enjoy and buy their Movies.

I don’t think they care if you enjoy movies they just want people to buy their movies at the highest profit margin possible. You could argue some actors or directors care about people enjoying films but just look at how hard it was for dead pool to get an r rating and you can tell studios are more interested in money then people enjoying the film.

Originally Posted by alchav21

where you can store your Collection just like your Discs. With Full Rights, and they won't be taken away.

They don’t give you full rights:

Can you back up your copy to play on some other computer without them? No
Can you sell your digital copy? No
Can you take a vudu digital copy and transfer it to iTunes home video system as a downloaded file? No
Can you place your digital copy on a server for personal use? No
Even physical media like Blu rays and DVDs don’t give full rights for personal use but they give a hell of a lot more then digital.

If Studios truly believe movies won’t be taken away then put it in writing. When you’re making a license contract that states you are only guaranteed access for2 years from redemption and at that point they can start charging you a fee for streaming and they have no liability if a service goes under or some other problem arises then I can see they wrote themselves a legal out. I just find it hard to trust digital distributers in good faith when they clearly written in ways to screw consumers over if they ever so choose.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by veritas

I don’t think they care if you enjoy movies they just want people to buy their movies at the highest profit margin possible. You could argue some actors or directors care about people enjoying films but just look at how hard it was for dead pool to get an r rating and you can tell studios are more interested in money then people enjoying the film.

They don’t give you full rights:

Can you back up your copy to play on some other computer without them? No
Can you sell your digital copy? No
Can you take a vudu digital copy and transfer it to iTunes home video system as a downloaded file? No
Can you place your digital copy on a server for personal use? No
Even physical media like Blu rays and DVDs don’t give full rights for personal use but they give a hell of a lot more then digital.

If Studios truly believe movies won’t be taken away then put it in writing. When you’re making a license contract that states you are only guaranteed access for2 years from redemption and at that point they can start charging you a fee for streaming and they have no liability if a service goes under or some other problem arises then I can see they wrote themselves a legal out. I just find it hard to trust digital distributers in good faith when they clearly written in ways to screw consumers over if they ever so choose.

Let's be fair, what gives you all these Rights that you are talking about. These Movies don't belong to you, you are only getting the right to view it. I know Penguin and The Gang want Full Control, but just the right to view the Movie is all that is required.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Let's be fair, what gives you all these Rights that you are talking about. These Movies don't belong to you, you are only getting the right to view it. I know Penguin and The Gang want Full Control, but just the right to view the Movie is all that is required.

So you admit that with digital we don't have control?

Nothing is required, they don't have to give us control and we don't have to give them money.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Let's be fair, what gives you all these Rights that you are talking about. These Movies don't belong to you, you are only getting the right to view it. I know Penguin and The Gang want Full Control, but just the right to view the Movie is all that is required.

Well for reselling and making backups I suppose the supreme court when they decided that fell under fair use / ownership. As far as being able to watch on any device that came from the fact that blu rays and dvds have much less restrictive drm which again benefits consumers. Some ownership protections are pretty grey for both blu rays and digital copies due to some conflicting laws which haven't been addressed in court because studios don't want to risk setting an unfavorable precedent when expensive vague threats by lawyers can be effective with little to no risk.

[Canada]

I will buy physical media as long as it is around, I see digital media as a plus only.