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View Poll Results: Which Blu-ray edition of Predator has the better picture quality?
2008 barebones edition 874 54.15%
2010 Ultimate Hunter Edition 418 25.90%
Neither 322 19.95%
Voters: 1614. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-04-2010, 07:47 PM   #3401
wormraper wormraper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yautja View Post
WOW, so many pages don't know what happened but anyway, instead of me reading every page here can I just ask the simple question!

Is it worth buying this version of the film?

Is the AQ & the PQ any good or is it the same as the previous edition?

thanks
simple answer, it's DNR's as bad as Gangs of New York (the original release) and Gladiator, take that however you will
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Old 07-04-2010, 07:49 PM   #3402
persuazion persuazion is offline
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The pq is exactly the opposite of the old edition.....if you thought the old one looked horrible then you will most likely love the new one.
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Old 07-04-2010, 07:50 PM   #3403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persuazion View Post
The pq is exactly the opposite of the old edition.....if you thought the old one looked horrible then you will most likely love the new one.
lol, that's misleading. If you LIKE DNR then you'll love this. If you don't like DNR then you won't.
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Old 07-04-2010, 07:51 PM   #3404
persuazion persuazion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
lol, that's misleading. If you LIKE DNR then you'll love this. If you don't like DNR then you won't.
Okay....thats fair. What if you dont really care either way about dnr? Will you love or hate it?
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Old 07-04-2010, 07:53 PM   #3405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persuazion View Post
The pq is exactly the opposite of the old edition.....if you thought the old one looked horrible then you will most likely love the new one.
Correct, if people like the old version don't buy the new one... It's better, and if you want to see predator cleaner and better, get the new version. I did.
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Old 07-04-2010, 07:57 PM   #3406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persuazion View Post
I dident say it was..... But to me it looks better........it may certainly,technically not be......it may be horrible....the worst transfer in bluray history,it may be despised by everybody in the world and every single copy recalled and burned and never talked about again without a death sentence.....but If I.....meaning me,myself and I think it looks good....THAT my friend,is still called an opinion.And that cant ever be wrong.
Oh, yeah, of course opinions can be wrong... when people do not realize that the subject at hand it is not a matter of opinion.

Following on your own example, you may like or dislike the TWILIGHT saga, and that's an opinion as valid as anybody else's, because there's no accounting for taste, there's no scientific, matter-of-fact truth to that.

But, on the other hand, 2+2 equals 4, and if my opinion is that it equals 3, and I find it stated that way in a book and I happen to agree, that's not because that's my opinion, that's because I lack the proper knowledge, that's because I'm WRONG.

Of course, the issue we are dealing here it is not such a clean-cut scientific matter, but there's still right and wrong to be determined about it not subject to opinion. A faithful representation is RIGHT, and an altered representation is WRONG, no matter whether you like it better one way or the other.

So again, you may say you LIKE the new release as it is, but that does not make it RIGHT as a proper presentation of the movie.
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:10 PM   #3407
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Just ordered the 08' version off Amazon, I don't own any version of this movie so this one will do for now, and its cheap @ $9.99
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:17 PM   #3408
persuazion persuazion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Batty View Post
Oh, yeah, of course opinions can be wrong... when people do not realize that the subject at hand it is not a matter of opinion.

Following on your own example, you may like or dislike the TWILIGHT saga, and that's an opinion as valid as anybody else's, because there's no accounting for taste, there's no scientific, matter-of-fact truth to that.

But, on the other hand, 2+2 equals 4, and if my opinion is that it equals 3, and I find it stated that way in a book and I happen to agree, that's not because that's my opinion, that's because I lack the proper knowledge, that's because I'm WRONG.

Of course, the issue we are dealing here it is not such a clean-cut scientific matter, but there's still right and wrong to be determined about it not subject to opinion. A faithful representation is RIGHT, and an altered representation is WRONG, no matter whether you like it better one way or the other.

So again, you may say you LIKE the new release as it is, but that does not make it RIGHT as a proper presentation of the movie.
that wouldnt be your opinion that it equals 3 that would be you stating it as fact....even though it would be wrong. o·pin·ion: a personal view, attitude, or appraisal. My personal view is that is looks good despite it not being a faithful representation
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:18 PM   #3409
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Here is a good review of the video because it explains why movies should have grain.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwoc...1.html#063010b
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:18 PM   #3410
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Originally Posted by bentvalve View Post
Just ordered the 08' version off Amazon, I don't own any version of this movie so this one will do for now, and its cheap @ $9.99
Hey.....I supported that release when it first came out for 24.99....I did my part.
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:20 PM   #3411
Kakihara Kakihara is online now
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More fun quotes with Predator and the DNR issue:

Poncho: Major, you better take a look at this

Dutch: Did jooh find some grain on the Ultimate Hunter Edition BD?

Poncho: I...I can't tell.

Blain: Bunch of slack-jawed f***ots around here. This DNR will make you a god damned sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me.

Poncho: [holds up his grenade (or GRAINade) launcher] Yeah, strap this on your "sore ass", Blain!

Poncho: She says the DNR... it just came alive and took the grain!

Grain: I'm scared Poncho.

Poncho: Bullsh**. You ain't afraid of no man.

Grain: There's something out there waiting for us, and it ain't no man. We're all gonna die.

DNR: If it scrubs off, we can kill it.

Dillon: Look, we've been looking for this DNR for months. My men were in that chopper when it got hit! FOX's orders were to go in and make a proper transfer of Predator and the grain just disappeared.

Dutch: The Grain didn't disappeah. It was scrubbed alive!

Dutch: [examining the Predator Ultimate Hunter Edition BD] No powder burns. No shrapnel. No grain, no texture.

Dillon: The transfer's all waxy, shiny. What the hell could have done this to a film?
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:21 PM   #3412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakihara View Post
more fun quotes with predator and the dnr issue:

Poncho: Major, you better take a look at this

dutch: Did jooh find some grain on the ultimate hunter edition bd?

Poncho: I...i can't tell.

Blain: Bunch of slack-jawed f***ots around here. This dnr will make you a god damned sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me.

Poncho: [holds up his grenade (or grainade) launcher] yeah, strap this on your "sore ass", blain!

Poncho: She says the dnr... It just came alive and took the grain!

Grain: I'm scared poncho.

Poncho: Bullsh**. You ain't afraid of no man.

Grain: There's something out there waiting for us, and it ain't no man. We're all gonna die.

Dnr: If it scrubs off, we can kill it.

Dillon: Look, we've been looking for this dnr for months. My men were in that chopper when it got hit! Fox's orders were to go in and make a proper transfer of predator and the grain just disappeared.

Dutch: The grain didn't disappeah. It was scrubbed alive!

Dutch: [examining the predator ultimate hunter edition bd] no powder burns. No shrapnel. No grain, no texture.

Dillon: The transfer's all waxy, shiny. What the hell could have done this to a film?
:d:d
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Old 07-04-2010, 08:34 PM   #3413
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Predictably, we've gotten a lot of reader responses to my Wednesday rant about the Predator. I'm pleased to say that the overwhelming majority agreed with me and were just as upset as I was, both by the release itself... and by the recently trend of studios over-scrubbing old catalog digital masters for Blu-ray release. A couple of you, specifically those who thought the new Predator BD looked just awesome (to quote HEADGEEK "The print is f--king unbelievably sharp. I'm talking portal into another dimension sharp."), took exception. So be it, I guess. Everyone's got an opinion and this is probably unavoidable. There are also still lots of people who hate those damn black bars on their new HDTV sets, who don't seem to care or notice that AMC HD stretches the hell out of all their full frame films to fit the 1.78 HDTV aspect ratio, and who would prefer to watch the colorized version of It's a Wonderful Life rather than the original black and white. ("If Frank Capra made that film today, he would have used color, dammit!") It ain't my thing, and I continue to have a hard time understanding those attitudes, but to each their own. Nonetheless, I'm still going to do everything I can to try to hold the studios to a higher standard, and to TRY to educate consumers on these issues.

Interestingly, I've heard from a number of industry sources in the last couple of weeks that a lot of people at the various mastering houses are painfully aware of this problem, and are doing whatever they can to alert the studios to the issue. (And guys, know that we're TOTALLY behind you and appreciate your efforts. If there's anything we can do to help, please let us know.) But there are still too many decision-makers at the studios - good, decent people to be sure - who just don't yet really understand the problem. I've also heard that, many times, studio decision-makers are giving the thumbs-up to these BD masters after checking them on a 40-inch plasma. And that's just not enough to really determine the quality - you need to throw them up on a 100-inch or larger projection screen to really see whether the image is breaking down or not. If you go to any good post production facility that does film remastering, you'll know that's exactly what they do - they digitally project the film in a real screening room space and carefully look for quality issues at that scale. It's the only way to properly do the job.

Lest you all think I'm some kind of anti-DNR film Nazi, let me say this: DNR isn't evil. I don't hate DNR. Virtually EVER high-definition master uses some form of DNR. What I hate, is when DNR is used carelessly and excessively. There are too many people working at the studios who think of ANY grain as some kind of defect, and so they have no qualms just stripping it all out with DNR, which all too often damages the integrity of the image.

Let me be clear: I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with grain reduction, especially if the grain in a film element is coarse and distracting -- unless that was the specific intent of the director and DP. I dislike a "grain storm" as much as the next guy. But when I'm watching a film, shot on film, on Blu-ray, I still expect to see a little very light grain texture in the background - even after DNR has been applied - because that's an inherent physical property of any film negative. When I start quality checking the transfer of a film on Blu-ray, I look for a bright scene, pause the image and start frame-stepping forward. If I can see a very slight/subtle pattern of print grain changing from frame to frame, I generally move on and don't think anything of it. But if can't see that grain anymore, even upon very close inspection, it's likely someone has gone too far. And so I start looking at other detail in the image - skin and fabric textures, etc - and 9 times out of 10, some of that has been removed too. Or in the case of the new Predator disc, a LOT has been removed. And that's when it's a problem for me.

Robert [Harris], myself and others arguing the film purist side of this aren't just doing this to be obnoxious. But I don't care how many sales there are, Blu-ray is still a fairly niche format - a "20% of the market" format. A premium format, sold for a premium price. So I think it's reasonable to expect a little better. But if you don't demand better, you'll likely never get it.

I'm not saying DNR should never be used again. I'm simply arguing that there needs to be some kind of standard. Film, shot on film, should still identifiably look like a film on Blu-ray. If we're talking about Avatar or Toy Story 3, then I expect them to be crisp and clean and grain-free. But if I'm watching Predator, or Night or the Living Dead, or Battleship Potemkin, you know... I expect to see a little grain. It's not rocket science. Criterion is getting it right. Sony is getting it right. All it takes is someone familiar enough with both film and video remastering to know that there's a balance that needs to be struck, and you need to employ a careful, light hand with digitally cleaning these masters.

Look guys - for all those of you who felt the original Predator disc was terrible because it was too grainy, my belief is that the new one is just as terrible... only in a different way. There IS an easy, happy medium to be struck here. Hell, if Fox had even SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE between the two discs with regard to employing DNR, I doubt any of this would be an issue.

And let me make one last argument for the importance of proper, careful digital remastering - the point I think is really the MOST important of all...

How many films in the history of cinema - even just Hollywood cinema history - have been lost to time? The prints were cut, trashed, have deteoriated or been misplaced completely? A HUGE portion of the films made before 1930 simply no longer exist. This might surprise you, but Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation estimates a whopping 80% of the American films made prior to 1930 are gone forever. Let that sink in for a moment.

Who knows how many of our favorite films today will simply be lost 100 years from now? There are many beloved classics with negatives in dire need of restoration and preservation, RIGHT NOW, even today. In a tough economy, film restoration is one of the first things that stops happening. It becomes much less of a priority for the studios. So what happens when those prints are lost or badly damaged - and I assure you if it's happened before it will happen again - and there's no one left alive who even remembers what they looked like?

My point is, it is ENTIRELY possible that, as we move fully into an all-digital world, some of these digital masters will end up being the ONLY surviving versions of our favorite films. So isn't it important get them right? I sure think so.

Anyway, it's important and well worth noting that MOST catalog BD titles these days are pretty well done, and some are downright spectacular. And a lot of good people in the industry are working very hard to deliver the very best quality possible. But sadly, the list of catalog titles with terrible transfers is truly depressing, in that it contains all too many much-loved titles that fans were really excited for: Gladiator, Patton, The Longest Day, Flash Gordon, many of the older Star Trek films... and now Predator. Let's just hope those continue to be the exception and not the rule... and that they'll all be revisited one day on Blu-ray with proper transfers.

All right, I'm done talking about this topic for a while... at least until the next catalog title with dud remastering comes out and sets our eyes to bleeding!

Have a great and safe 4th of July weekend with your family and friends, and we'll see you back here on Monday. Best to all of you... (yes, even you wrong-headed types who love the new Predator Blu-ray!)

Peace out!

Bill Hunt, Editor
The Digital Bits

Posted by Bob copied from Editor of Digital Bits Bill Hunt

Last edited by Canada; 07-05-2010 at 04:22 AM.
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Old 07-04-2010, 09:37 PM   #3414
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I don't think I'll ever be able to look at that 'question mark' smilie again. Please. Stop using it.
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:02 PM   #3415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mars396 View Post
I cannot believe how intelligent you all are about film production, film history, Film projection, etc, yet just don't "get" basic economics. Perhaps because I went to Business School instead of Film School that disqualifies me from becoming a respected member of this Forum?
First, it is your behavior that is disqualifying you from becoming a respected member of this forum.

As for the fact you went to Business School instead of Film School, that is actually the core of the whole problem in the industry. Most of the people in charge of the studio decisions, are strictly number crunchers that have no sense of their own studio's history, let alone film history.

Warner and Disney get it... As does Sony. But pretty much every other studio no longer has a clue... Be it their own internal decisions (MGM, Fox) or from pressure from a parent company that is looking only for content (GE, Viacom)

fitprod
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:26 PM   #3416
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So does anyone think that there will be enough complaints that FOX will resolve this problem soon? Is it possible that they can quickly remaster the video again and make a replacement program?
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:55 PM   #3417
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Originally Posted by toddly6666 View Post
So does anyone think that there will be enough complaints that FOX will resolve this problem soon? Is it possible that they can quickly remaster the video again and make a replacement program?
Fat chance, mate. The best chance we have to see a new Predator's edition is the inevitable "25th Anniversary Super Duper Edition". Anyway the transfer might be the same used in this "Ultimate Glacéed Edition", plus some new supplements (who knows? perhaps a 3D version of the movie? ) or/and collectibles (wax figures).
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:07 PM   #3418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spymaster View Post
That's true, sometimes the director does screw the pooch! Nicholas Meyer made a right mess of Star Trek VI when he added those extra scenes and changed others.

The thing is, with DNR, I'm guessing most of the choices are made by a computer. It isn't a human being's creative decisions you're witnessing at all, regardless of whether that person is the director or not!
THATS CORRECT ,BUT THE COMPUTER WAS PROGRAMED BY A HUMAN BEING. In this case when the computer sees grain ,its programmed to see grain as a defect,thus REMOVE IT! Sucks!
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:11 PM   #3419
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Weak. IGN.com gave the ultimate hunter edition a 7 out of 10 for video and said it was better then the first one.
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:13 PM   #3420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjjanderson1981 View Post
so what about the newlly released star trek boxsets? they look awesome aswell now. does that make it bad? blu-ray makes a difference and it has to he new predator aswell.
Not really, the ist 6 startrek movies were a mixed bag. STARTREK2 was restored ,the others just clean ups. On very large screens STATREK4 has quite a bit of dnr,even on a 40in you can see the wax faces.
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