Heat 4K UHD (1995)

[captainron_howdy]

Originally Posted by PNguyen

Hm what’s the difference between those modes?

I really am not exactly sure, someone whose more of an expert hopefully chimes in....but for me it made the picture look not as dim.

[darthpepsi]

Wish there was a reunion special in the extras with just John Voigt and Robert De Niro for in a room for an hour.

[trekky76]

I feel like it should be mandatory to post your setup and settings to be able to rant about these releases. Would really help to weed out some unwanted opinions.
That is not to say you need this or that display to enjoy a release. I just think quite a few people in here are not used to see the intended look of a movie given how much extra processing (DTM, contrast enhancer, color saturation etc) they tend to activate.

[PNguyen]

Originally Posted by trekky76

I feel like it should be mandatory to post your setup and settings to be able to rant about these releases. Would really help to weed out some unwanted opinions.
That is not to say you need this or that display to enjoy a release. I just think quite a few people in here are not used to see the intended look of a movie given how much extra processing (DTM, contrast enhancer, color saturation etc) they tend to activate.

It is a bit of a mess, my TV without any extra settings looks nothing like the caps posted.

[njweb]

Picked up my 2 BB Steelbook version ISPU orders yesterday.
Played the UHD disc briefly on two of my setups.

Setup 1 - Sony XBR77A9G OLED TV and Panasonic UB9000 UHD BD player.
Setup 2 - Hisense 65U7G LED TV and Sony UBP-X800M2 UHD BD player.

Overall, I was very pleasantly surprised given all the comments about this being dark / dim. I was expecting the worst like some of those (Amazon) Prime shows in HDR that look too dark on non-high end HDR TVs that cannot handle HDR (i.e. can't display a wide color gamut for HDR content and don't get bright enough to bring out highlights - e.g. Samsung AU8000). Luckily even sets with those limitations can be helped with some extra settings changes to make details easer to see / less dark (as noted in rtings.com tips for that TV), albeit at the expense of some loss of overall PQ.


Heat UHD On setup 1 - Even nighttime scenes had enough detail IMHO (have not done a comparison to the 1080P Director's Definitive Edition of Heat yet though).

Note - Given lack of time late last night and that it was not excessively dark by any means IMHO, I have not made changes yet to FURTHER optimize the picture, other than turning on HDR Optimizer on the UB9000.
But in this case, HDR Optimizer seemed to do little, if anything, to change the level of detail (maybe because this is SDR in an HDR container - not an expert, so I could be mistaken on how that impacts the HDR optimizer's benefits / usefulness in such scenarios).

Heat UHD on setup 2 - It seems, subjectively, like nighttime scenes may have shown less detail / been darker than on setup 1 (not surprisingly perhaps), but that could also potentially be that brightness was turned up less on this setup or some other setting better optimized already on setup 1 prior to this.
But the video is still not excessively dark (and, IF needed, there is room on the TV to increase the brightness setting / other settings a tad (obviously increasing it too much would lend a more 'washed out' feel to the video).

tldr - I would think with the right setup and / or some video settings optimization, most viewers would not have a problem with this being too dark.
That being said I know the pulse here seems very divided still on that aspect...
As GeoffD and others noted, those looking for the visuals to pop may be disappointed.
But I was looking for a quality UHD visual experience with realism ('pop' is not something I need) and I am very satisfied with this Heat UHD release, even more so given my apprehension going in given many of the comments.


FHD 1080P version vs. UHD 4K version:
As to improvements over the 1080P version, it is too early for me to opine. I also may have to leave that to the experts anyway since I do NOT claim to be an expert in video quality by any means...
That said I am eager to perform some quick back to back comparisons later.


Disclaimer - The opinions above are, just that - opinions only. I am by no means an expert in video quality testing / assessment, so I will leave any real tests / reviews to them...

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by martinstraka8282

Oh nice! I considered the NP5 instead, but it wasn't yet available when I bought mine so that pretty much sealed the decision for me. That is my understanding of the "auto" function as well and i like the set it and forget it nature of JVC's tone mapping in general. I only rarely have to play with it to bump it up a little and it being only the one setting it's not much work to change. It's definitely much better than the tone mapping on my CX. And good advice on the panasonic players, I actually have two in the same setup just so that the one to my CX can have the optimizer on while the one to the projector is turned off while using JVC's tone mapping.

I watched Heat last night and I was really happy with the image on the Auto setting for HDR. I played with it but settled back on Auto. Based on my experience, I think the issues with this movie are setup/display/tone mapping issues more than the disc itself I was quite satisfied and definitely have other movies in my collection that give me more trouble. There's a reason Dynamic Tone Mapping has been such a discussion point, it's pretty much required for HDR and so many tvs/projectors don't do it nearly well enough. I have a couple friends with cheaper sets and I find that their HDR can be underwhelming to the point they're better off just feeding it SDR.

I watched the disc last night and was very pleased. I found absolutely NO issues with the image looking "too dark" at any time or in any scene. Detail can be surprisingly good at times with visible grain and the color is noticeably improved from the 2017 BD. I do like some of the steely blue look in certain scenes, but it's fortunately not a global/blanket approach. I did find this being the first disc I've watched so far where I preferred "2" for the frame-by-frame, DTM. But I am also using Low Lamp mode.

The only issue I had was my disc, despite attached to the hub in the case, was scratched to hell when I took it out. At least seven or eight times it briefly pixelated throughout the film so I will be requesting a replacement from Amazon.

[zepol]

Originally Posted by Kevin599

As much as I love this movie, I'd never watched it twice in the same day before now.

Viewing #1: 4K disc. I watched 1/2 with no adjustment, finding it muddy, dull, and unappealing. Then I changed the LG TV setting to turn on "Ultra HD Deep Color" & watched the rest [top image below]

Viewing #2: 2009 Blu-Ray. [bottom image below]

Attachment 279892

Attachment 279893

To me that 2009 looks better.

[PNguyen]

Does anyone recommend watching movies in 4:4:4 color and copying rtings calibration settings?

[lgans316]

Those who don't like the sunglass filter look check out Day Shift 4K Dolby Vision on Netflix lol.

[vailsy]

.. hmm I was hoping I'd be one of the lucky ones but Heat does indeed look very disappointing for me

everyone has their reference level for their own individual setup, but taking the other discs I own as a baseline/average this looks nothing like the other 4k's i own, maybe that's different for others here .. night time scenes not too bad but daytime shots are abysmal, looks like Seattle on a bad day rather than LA. It reminds me of my experience with the studio canal of They Live but way dimmer. I won't be messing around with settings either just for the sake of one movie, as much as I love Heat.. I'll just stick with the included and older blu rays for now

Ah well I got the disc as a present so I won't cry too much about it on my birthday and good luck for those that are happy with it. I personally trust that Miami Vice and Manhunter 4k discs won't be put out by Mickey Mouse, who should stick to Avengers movies imo, when they are eventually released and will look better as a result

[JohnCarpenterFan]

Originally Posted by nissling

I've seen a release print of it from 1981 as recent as 2017 when the Swedish Film Institute had a Mann retrospective. Saw it with the Criterion/Arrow discs in mind, expecting it to be very different, but man it was so blue you wouldn't believe it. Wrote a longer post about it in its dedicated thread. The only real difference in color timing was that the restoration had slightly bluer skin tones in a few scenes, but otherwise it was almost a perfect match.

The theatrical cuts available on Blu-Ray have far too much red push, which is fairly common to see for Eastmancolor if you've scanned the OCN and not done proper color timing. It's very characteristic for old MGM masters. Whenever I'm scanning Eastman 5247 I always end up having to adjust the gamma curve for the red channel specifically. Tho most of the color films I've restored have been developed with ECN-1 rather than ECN-2 which can drift more over time from my experience.

Yup. Ironically the Criterion Thief is usually cited as being one of the most revisionist "Tealed" Blu-rays on here, yet it's one of the few Michael Mann home video releases that looks very faithful to the original 35mm prints.

As Geoff said though, the old master is from an IP and looks like your usual magenta-pushed MGM DVD-era master.

[Bellicose]

Originally Posted by MR THX

I have a 48” C1 in a bedroom used purely for gaming, and a 65” C8 in main room,
The C1 is quite a way dimmer than the older C8, the C1 is a great screen but brightness isnt its greatest feature.
LG OLEDS peaked at the C8 & C9, even the tv’s menu on the C1 is a backward step.
The C1 is a superb tv, just that Brightness and menu’s are a step down, but you do gain 2.1 spec HDMI for 4K @120hz gaming (only 1080p @120hz max on older C8) for the price they are great.
Still nothing yet from LG that makes me want to upgrade my C8.

With DTM there should hardly be much difference on the C1. It should be better in many areas in fact as they improved their tone mappers quite a bit. In my experience with gaming HGiG is almost unplayable, and yeah reminds me of something like Heat lol. Skies just aren't bright enough with it. DTM fixes all that at very little cost.

None of that means anything though, because I can point to the brunt of my film collection that doesn't look as dim or orange as Heat does. I have the older film right here as well.

The C1 is an upgrade in just about every single way with gaming, but yeah it's not going to be next gen. That's the point in relation to the other poster. But it does have better burn-in and other things about it that are an upgrade. The menu however and the remote leave some to be desired. I just wish they had a shortcut to our most used settings in brightness and whatever. Also wish it was a touch snappier.

You can manipulate almost any OLED right now, and they are basically very close with tuning. HGiG IS way too dim on HDR stuff on the C1, but DTM on these newer TVs seems more like the better way to go. Some say HGiG is accurate, but it's really not because there are not enough nits for it to be accurate. That's the issue. HGiG can only go so far, and the spectrum isn't wide enough, especially for skies, which are a huge part of lighting in games. I've tried 20+ games easily, and majority simply look better with DTM. I might even tune contrast or pixel brightness down with DTM on.

HGiG in most games looks dim as hell and very unrealistic as many have posted about on other forums. But turn DTM on, and the C1 is a better TV than the C8 in just about every way. They are so close on brightness levels that few could even tell the difference back to back.

The next major step is approaching 2000 nits. The range of nits from 700-1000 really isn't as big as people make it out to be. But it can of course enable better skies and other things.

[pbz06]

My copy is still sitting at home until I get back, so I can't judge for myself yet, but I'm not worried and doing mental wager that the complaints are due to people with TVs/projectors that do poor tonemapping based off disc mastering display metadata (instead of actual), similar to Goodfellas (which is fantastic transfer) so any "sdr within hdr" type movies get crunched in brightness. I bet also most people are used to watching SDR cranked to high levels way above 100 nits.

I'm sure it looks lovely.

[Bellicose]

Originally Posted by slimjean

You stated that most are having problems.

I pointed out that your observation is not accurate. If you are insulted by it, perhaps stop generalizing.

What I do see is some C1 owners that like it. This tells me there is at least some evidence of a calibration issue. It is more to the ratings of its weakness in my reading. It is a dim tv to begin with.

Of course you don't complain about it being a dim tv. You are watching a Sony. Forget the fact the Z9D is still after all these years a high performing tv (and I got a full replacement warranty that is still good and I bought it open box years ago. Lol), it is sad and pathetic that the achilles heal of Oleds have always been if a movie is on the dark end.

Blacks are shown "perfect" because the pixel is turned off (I don't agree, because every pixel is designed to have some information), but yet that can go too far when you have the surrounding pixels that need that blending for the micro data.

I may be a rarity, but I actually believe in a backlight for the mind to have a context on information that is there. It is no different than having a light behind your television where the edge pixels also need a context.

Light vs dark, I take light every single time.

I just gave my Z9D another kiss. Best tv I have ever owned.

As a chemist I never subscribed to Oleds because of the one thing I know. Organics (like Alq3) break down in light. Think about it. You have carbon bonds that are competing with oxygen produced in any panel. The design is a failure.

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/arti...06/cp/b514898g

A painted phospher is mostly inorganic (GaN, GaAs) and any organics that do exist are a small piece of the puzzle...why because if any part fails/fades just like analog, it isn't simple as on and off.

Not true with a C1 which is notorious for color fading which is absolutely related to burn in at the nanolevel. When it fails...just like digital it is the equivalent of off...no in between. There are lots of pretty labs that have great organic fluorescent demonstrations. There is a reason why technicians have jobs...you have to use more fresh chemicals to create the same effect.

Here is the sad part. While I think a good bit of the problems are poorly calibrated tv's, the other part is obvious.

The tv's are getting dimmer by design where the inorganics are like light fading a mirror...and what is a mirror made of...you guessed it, inorganic. It ain't happening at any perceptible level!

In closing I wasn't saying you were crying...I was saying others were crying based on the Oled band wagon. Like sheep they follow, and never stopped to research the obvious built in failures.

Heat bringing it to the masses. The Z9D and other inorganics are up to the challenge.

Do I sound pompous and bragging...yup. I am protective about Heat and this one is a beauty.

Now I am watching Indiana Jones ROTLA 4K...love the movie...the transfer isn't. Too much DNR!

First of all, you have no long term data. Second, you do not make these TVs. You have zero business acting like you have the slightest clue how fast LGs are going to break down. There are a ton of CX owners out there with ZERO issues right now after years, and the C1 has even more features to prevent burn-in. I'm not watching CNN here bud. The best data we have suggest early generation OLEDs don't have that much of a problem unless left on CNN or HUDs in gaming for AGES. The C1 is premium tech still.

Backlights are never coming back. What an obsolete and ridiculous idea. My god. Not only is the flickering terrible on them, LEDs in general wear out too and get dimmer and have all kinds of issues going into a second decade with color balance and contrast. I have a full array local dimmer that still looks good, but it's not even half the TV that the LG is.

Your ideas on pixel-based dimming are nonsense. Perfect blacks are the way forward, and nobody is going backward with you. Deal with it. The single biggest difference in the massive shift to OLEDs is LITERALLY the ability to control EVERY SINGLE PIXEL for perfect blacks. It has completely changed the way films and games look and ALL for the better because darkness is finally something that looks precise and DARK. Local dimming is an artifact of its time. It's terrible. Even the best full array local dimmers were terrible. The TVs usually didn't have any more than 700 zones. The ZD9 has around 630 or something FOR 8 MILLION+ PIXELS!

Another thing is you keep responding in the MOST absurd ways I can ever imagine a mature chemist doing, e.g., constant use of "dude", "crying", puerile sentence structure, et cetera. The idea you are some OLED chemist who watched analog prints of Heat in a nostalgic paradise and remembers every detail on a massively inferior backlit TV from five years ago is certainly something. I like antiques and tall tales too.

So in the future, instead of talking randomly on various subjects, back up your talk with data.

The C1 is meant to be used with DTM ON. HGiG is sometimes okay, but overall it's just way too dim because it's only accurate to the TV's capabilities, which are not great compared to say a 2000 nits TV. DTM makes gaming and many HDR films way better overall, and people seemingly forget this maybe because HGiG is suggested so much. Talk to owners. Rarely is anybody using HGiG for gaming. For HDR it's all over the place. Sometimes it looks better often it does not. The C1 is actually as bright as my other LED local dimmer at this point. Because LEDs age and decay as well.

TVs are generally replaced within 6-8 years by a majority of people. There is nothing inherently wrong with the C1. Unless you have mass reports of people with TVs going bad, you have no business suggesting what you are suggesting. You do not work for LG nor do you make OLEDs nor do you inherently have any insider knowledge about their science. Being a chemist and being an LG OLED engineer are two WILDLY different things.

You are free to like what you like as everybody is here, but you are suggesting things that are simply not true, not proven, or a complete fabrication.

[Jay H.]

There isn't enough popcorn in the world.

[Vilya]

Rent it. Watch it. Decide whether or not to buy it. It can really be that simple.

[Sopranogl]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Rent it. Watch it. Decide whether or not to buy it. It can really be that simple.

How can a body RENT Heat on 4K? Blockbuster? Hollywood Video? Some other mom-and-pop video store?

Sorry. I'm just being cheeky.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Sopranogl

How can a body RENT Heat on 4K? Blockbuster? Hollywood Video? Some other mom-and-pop video store?

Sorry. I'm just being cheeky.

Here's one option:

https://www.gamefly.com/movies/4kuhd...gaAvULEALw_wcB

Gamefly rents it. Gamefly has a free 30 day trial offer and they rent several titles on 4K disc.

https://www.gamefly.com/registration

[Mr. Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Sopranogl

How can a body RENT Heat on 4K? Blockbuster? Hollywood Video? Some other mom-and-pop video store?

3D Bluray Rental
https://www.store-3d-blurayrental.co...eat4k06-22.htm

[Filmmaker]

Originally Posted by yoshinobu

Well one thing is certain - when a release sparks discussion about upgrading your gear to be able to watch it, it cannot be great...

I believe the exact opposite is the case.