Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[squatting hen]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

If anything happens to any of my discs I can replace them. I can just buy another copy from one of the thousands of people who still owns a working copy.

If a digital copy is removed than there is no way to replace it. That movie is lost to everyone.



Obsolete does not mean non-functional. I think we can all agree that LaserDisc players and VCRs are obsolete, but it remains extremely easy to find working ones. With hundreds of millions of Blu-ray players in circulation it will never be difficult to find a working one.

Maybe you can find one, just like maybe a digital title is lost. The thing is, this entire thread is one big maybe. lol.

Anyway, if I personally lost a digital title, and if for some magical reason it is one I cared about and wanted to watch again, and for some reason couldn't find it on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, or whatever streaming provider is out at the time, then like you, I could just buy the physical copy. I wouldn't though. There is just too much out there to watch and enjoy.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Groot

Yeah. Bringing up legislation and lawsuits for physically removing it from your device is the same as saying that every thing ever should be online.

Anything that is streamed is not on your device. The digital providers must continue offering it for it to be available.

Anything that has DRM can't be copied to a new device after it is no longer officially offered. If your device breaks none of the movies that are tied to it can be played on another device.

Anything without DRM is safer, it can't be taken away. But since it is illegal to sell or give away those files they are still only available to those who bought them while they were offered. The used market provides access to everyone with physical media.

Originally Posted by Groot

And that last bit is well and good. I assume you don't buy games like Destiny and Overwatch that are dependent on online servers to play because oh noes in 5 years those servers won't exist so the game is physically worthless in this hypothetical hoarder scenario.

Of course I don't. I don't support anything that can be removed.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by squatting hen

Anyway, if I personally lost a digital title, and if for some magical reason it is one I cared about and wanted to watch again, and for some reason couldn't find it on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, or whatever streaming provider is out at the time, then like you, I could just buy the physical copy.

If everything was available on physical media then I wouldn't have a problem with digital. More support for digital (and therefore less support for physical media) means less titles available on physical media.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by veritas

You have the right to back it up but not to break the encryption which has made almost all the laws in this area a cluster **** as we have conflicting precedence. in that same vane you have the right to copy it once to make that back up but again the anti hacking laws conflict. in similar vanes you have some rights to make clips as long as they would fall under fair use but again breaking encryption would not be allowed.


On the digital side however its just as gray to for example selling digital codes. That isn't exactly legal as its breaking the license agreement and various laws also frown on unbundling and reselling pieces of a set.

It also completely depends on what country you are in as for example for a while it was not illegal to video tape a film in a theater in the uk as long as it was for personal use. The laws then went in the other direction in the uk and it became a crime to make a back up of even a cd in the uk. The music companys in the uk said well it will be ok to make copies for personal use but you then have to pay use a percentage for every computer with a cd player thats sold in the uk.

The truth is a lot of these things are in a very legally gray area because the courts have not ruled on them to set a clear precedent. Studio lawyers say one thing and some precedent and civil liberties lawyers say another. The studios know they might lose if this stuff went to court so I doubt the laws in this area will ever be very clear.

You can back it up, but you can't back it up and sell the original disc. You can't keep a copy of it if the original is in possession of another. There's muddy waters even with physical media. Just like those harping on buying discs, look at the after market/used sells. The studios see no money in person A buying a disc and selling it to person B. Copyrights have screwed a lot of things up and it's so far from being a one sided issue. Each side is problematic, albeit in starkly different ways, but that doesn't negate the fact that studios still have the ultimate control.

How many players are online connected? Or get regular updates? What if a studio decides to add some locking to a title if there's a legal dispute and it won't play? We could sit here all day and come up with hypotheticals and it doesn't change the fact people can spend their money however the hell they want. I myself have thousands of DVDs, Blus, still have a collection of LaserDisc and VHS and also have been buying digital. I have tons of discs I haven't watched again in the nearly two decades of buying disc media. Digital is fast, in the now for films and if the evil studios take a film away I didn't watch again after that long...I don't care. I got my moneys worth when I watched it the first time.

I mean, and don't take this rant as directed at you, the way physical media defenders are acting is even more laughable with the way they describe their film rights. You have the right to watch it, back it up, or destroy the backup and resell the disc. That's it. Just like you technically don't own your house as there's a lien from the property tax always there and if you don't pay it, they can foreclose and take your home away. Nothing is absolute.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Groot

What if a studio decides to add some locking to a title if there's a legal dispute and it won't play?

I won't buy physical media with online DRM either.

Originally Posted by Groot

You have the right to watch it, back it up, or destroy the backup and resell the disc. That's it.

That's far more rights than you have with digital. With digital you only have the right to watch it for as long as the studios and digital providers offer it. And you don't have the right to resell or give it away.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I'm not oversimplifying anything!

You most certainly are. No one is saying that Blu-Ray and/or DVD is "perfect." But there are downsides to digital and the end purchaser's rights that simply don't exist with physical media.

For some, it an unacceptable trade off. On the opposite side, some are aware of the trade off, but opt to gamble with the potential future consequences.

But in between those two unfortunately are people who just take the accessibility of digital content for granted and simply assume nothing will ever go wrong or be removed, and won't wake up to the issues until it is too late.


I could go on, but you would probably misunderstand, misinterpret, and oversimplify it all again, so there really isn't much of a point in taking the time to do so.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

I won't buy physical media with online DRM either.


That's far more rights than you have with digital. With digital you only have the right to watch it for as long as the studios and digital providers offer it. And you don't have the right to resell or give it away.

Man. It must be terrible to not enjoy things out of fear it won't last forever. I guess I shouldn't go to a theme park and get on a rollercoaster as I may love that rollercoaster but the theme park may replace in a few years, or may even shut down, and I won't be able to experience it again and I'll be emo and disappointed now until I'm dead.

[squatting hen]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

If everything was available on physical media then I wouldn't have a problem with digital. More support for digital (and therefore less support for physical media) means less titles available on physical media.


I won't buy physical media with online DRM either.



That's far more rights than you have with digital. With digital you only have the right to watch it for as long as the studios and digital providers offer it. And you don't have the right to resell or give it away.

As a collector and a film fan, isn't that what you want? To be able to watch it? I mean, you don't want to give it away or resell it, right?

So your "problem" with digital is that certain studios or releases have decided to support it over physical? Honestly, that sounds like the same people who had issues with DVD, or any new format that was starting to "take over" or be the next generation.

I am glad both formats are available. I only have about 50 blu rays (after a few hundred were stolen) and about 1,000 digital titles currently. Both have their pros and cons, but I can't recall the last time we put a disc in the player.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

You most certainly are. No one is saying that Blu-Ray and/or DVD is "perfect." But there are downsides to digital and the end purchaser's rights that simply don't exist with physical media.

For some, it an unacceptable trade off. On the opposite side, some are aware of the trade off, but opt to gamble with the potential future consequences.

But in between those two unfortunately are people who just take the accessibility of digital content for granted and simply assume nothing will ever go wrong or be removed, and won't wake up to the issues until it is too late.


I could go on, but you would probably misunderstand, misinterpret, and oversimplify it all again, so there really isn't much of a point in taking the time to do so.

Or, wild idea, people won't care that a movie they bought and watched once ten years ago disappears. We are living in fast paced times, with more media hours than life span, so people who are going digital just don't sit around worrying about it. I buy vinyl records as I enjoy the nostalgia of playing records and the different sounds and vibe I get, but on the same side I haven't bought an actual CD in over a decade and use Apple Music (was with spotify before I changed over) and don't care if some album I haven't listened to in a few years leaves. There's always something else. Life is fluid, this is a non-thing.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Even here on the Blu-ray Site Collecting Discs is coming to an end. My biggest gripe with Disc Supporters, was them putting down Digital HD as inferior. Like predicted the Quality has been going up, and I think soon it will match and surpass Disc. Everything is moving to Cloud Services, or Server Based. It only makes sense in a Connected World that Networks will take over, if they haven't already. All Media is Digital, so it's only logical to put it all on Servers for easy access. The Future is tomorrow, and Streaming Video is here to stay!

Streaming video, yep. Digital HD, not so much.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Groot

Or, wild idea, people won't care that a movie they bought and watched once ten years ago disappears. We are living in fast paced times, with more media hours than life span, so people who are going digital just don't sit around worrying about it. I buy vinyl records as I enjoy the nostalgia of playing records and the different sounds and vibe I get, but on the same side I haven't bought an actual CD in over a decade and use Apple Music (was with spotify before I changed over) and don't care if some album I haven't listened to in a few years leaves. There's always something else. Life is fluid, this is a non-thing.

The whole point of owning something is so you can access it at any time. I don't think you have grasped this argument.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Groot

You can back it up, but you can't back it up and sell the original disc. You can't keep a copy of it if the original is in possession of another. There's muddy waters even with physical media.

But most people are not buying physical media with the intent of doing any of that.


Technically in many respects, there are limits to what we can do with most any physical product that we buy.

If a woman buys a name-brand designer purse, she owns that one, individual purse. She can sell it later if she decides that she no longer wants it. But she does not have the right to make knock offs of that name brand purse and sell them. While making such knock offs may be logistically more difficult to do than making a copy of a DVD or Blu-Ray, the fundamental principle is the same.


And I'm sure if someone took it upon themselves to want to promote a product that they like and put on demonstrations of it in public places and draw a crowd, while it may be free advertising for the company that makes that product from a certain viewpoint, if they don't like the way their product is being represented, or just don't like the fact that someone is doing that at all, they can likely issue a cease and desist to that person. (sort of like how public showings of movies that we buy are a no-no).


While these other scenarios may more difficult to do and/or less likely to happen than copying or publicly showing a movie, again, the principle is the same.


It doesn't mean that we would be better off if everything that we know own was leased/rented instead, and in the fine print bowels of the contract it gives the makers of those items the right to just up and take them away from us at any time for any reason.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Groot

Not at the time it wasn't so your rant about what was posted doesn't work. You can have discussions within a discussion about related topics. Scary stuff, I know, but that's what went on last night so your post is just attacking for no reason. VHS, Rentals and others were brought up too. Either stick with the context of what was being debated or move on.

Still doesn't change the fact you are linking to articles without knowing the actual facts. Sorry if that gets your back up. I certainly sense it in your posts.

Now move on.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Groot

Or, wild idea, people won't care that a movie they bought and watched once ten years ago disappears. We are living in fast paced times, with more media hours than life span, so people who are going digital just don't sit around worrying about it. I buy vinyl records as I enjoy the nostalgia of playing records and the different sounds and vibe I get, but on the same side I haven't bought an actual CD in over a decade and use Apple Music (was with spotify before I changed over) and don't care if some album I haven't listened to in a few years leaves. There's always something else. Life is fluid, this is a non-thing.

That's a pretty weird mind set. Its like you buy a car and then after you payed that car off somebody takes it back and says when we wrote buy in the contract it really meant lease so we are taking back the car and you just go oh well i can buy anouther car for sombody else to repo. Is this an economies of scale thing to you? You don't care if somebody scams some money off of you but you would care about larger amounts? These companies are not saying rent this title for some unspecified time they are saying buy the title.

[Steedeel]

Guys just go ahead. You will find out the hard way in a few short years.

See you next year. (For real this time)

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The whole point of owning something is so you can access it at any time. I don't think you have grasped this argument.

When you buy clothes do you worry they won't last the rest of your life? Or a car? What if that new collectible you bought dry rots or the plastic becomes brittle and breaks? Oh noes! How will I make it through? I don't think I could sleep at night if my digital copy of Deuce Bigalow disappears.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Groot

Or, wild idea, people won't care that a movie they bought and watched once ten years ago disappears.

What if one of their favorite movies leaves and they can't replace it?

Digital rentals and subscription services make sense. Everything is short lived but people recognize that and they don't care.

But buying digital movies doesn't make sense. You and especially alchav are insisting that everything in everyone's collection will last (alchav has claimed 99 years). You should be well aware that's not the case. If you're willing to take the risk, fine. But just don't argue that your digital collection is safe and secure.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Groot

When you buy clothes do you worry they won't last the rest of your life? Or a car? What if that new collectible you bought dry rots or the plastic becomes brittle and breaks? Oh noes! How will I make it through? I don't think I could sleep at night if my digital copy of Deuce Bigalow disappears.

I will leave with the following observation. Why the heck would you own a disc/copy you don't care for?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Groot

Or, wild idea, people won't care that a movie they bought and watched once ten years ago disappears. We are living in fast paced times, with more media hours than life span, so people who are going digital just don't sit around worrying about it. I buy vinyl records as I enjoy the nostalgia of playing records and the different sounds and vibe I get, but on the same side I haven't bought an actual CD in over a decade and use Apple Music (was with spotify before I changed over) and don't care if some album I haven't listened to in a few years leaves. There's always something else.

To an extent that might be true, but it's still a bad attitude to take as it sets a bad precedent.

Someone may not necessarily care or even notice if some random movie that they bought that they didn't care for and watched once ten years ago disappears. But if it happens to a movie that they really enjoy and rewatch frequently, that will piss them off (and some people's favorite movies aren't necessarily going to be big name blockbusters which are more likely to remain available than some smaller titles). And one person's favorite movie could be someone else's movie that they haven't watched in 10 years.

What you have said here roughly fall into the category of people who are aware of the potential ramifications, but basically choose to stick their head in the sand and assume that it will either never happen to them, or that if it does, it will only be to a random movie that they watched once 10 years ago and haven't though about since.

Life is fluid, this is a non-thing.

Much like your reasoning skills.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Still doesn't change the fact you are linking to articles without knowing the actual facts. Sorry if that gets your back up. I certainly sense it in your posts.

Now move on.

And it doesn't change the fact that you are taking the context of one thing and applying it to another. It appears like that isn't being grasped, but that's okay.

Originally Posted by veritas

That's a pretty weird mind set. Its like you buy a car and then after you payed that car off somebody takes it back and says when we wrote buy in the contract it really meant lease so we are taking back the car and you just go oh well i can buy anouther car for sombody else to repo. Is this an economies of scale thing to you? You don't care if somebody scams some money off of you but you would care about larger amounts? These companies are not saying rent this title for some unspecified time they are saying buy the title.

And you guys are the one putting up the hypothetical that someone may take your bought movies from you. Technically if you fail to renew tags/licensing/constantly have insurance on your car it could still be taken from you so yes it still has a fee to maintain.

Oh, and absolutely it's an economic scale. Spending a few dollars on digital now and maybe losing it in 10-15-20 whatever amount of years does not bother me. I've bought the same movies on vhs-dvd-blu-4k and should my digital version fly away like a fart in the wind and I absolutely want to watch it, I'll buy it on the new beamed into your eyeballs format that is out at that time.