Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Groot

Oh, and absolutely it's an economic scale. Spending a few dollars on digital now and maybe losing it in 10-15-20 whatever amount of years does not bother me. I've bought the same movies on vhs-dvd-blu-4k and should my digital version fly away like a fart in the wind and I absolutely want to watch it, I'll buy it on the new beamed into your eyeballs format that is out at that time.

Any movie that gets removed is unlikely to make it to new formats. If your digital version disappears it likely means all digital versions have disappeared. So if it's a title that was only released digitally then it will be completely unavailable.

I'm not worried that I'll lose the money I spent on the movie. I'm worried that I'll lose the movie, how much I spent on it is irrelevant.

[rpvee]

What about downloading and backing up your digital purchases so they're not at the mercy of the provider's cloud? iTunes and Vudu let you download your purchases, that's what I do...

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Groot

When you buy clothes do you worry they won't last the rest of your life? Or a car?

Depends on your view points and how you take care of those things.

For me, it's no on both counts. But, while I want to generally look nice and will choose clothes accordingly, to me clothes serve more of a "function." I mainly need to wear clothes for a plethora of both practical and societal reasons. If a pair of pants wears out, I'll buy a new pair. But that's kind of the point, though. I can replace my pants.

Likewise, for me a car is more of a tool that serves a function - to get me around as needed. I've never been a "car guy." In general I want my car to look decent and not have a lot of physical/visual problems, but if it does acquire a scratch or two over time, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I'm going to drive it until the cost of maintain it outweighs the cost of buying a new car, and the cycle begins a new.

But unlike cars or pants, losing access to one of my favorite movies is not something that can be made up for with a completely different movie.



But on the topic of cars, while it is not my "cup of tea," there are people with money who do collect cars, drive them sparingly to give them a long life, and keep them long term.

What if that new collectible you bought dry rots or the plastic becomes brittle and breaks? .

Well hopefully such an item is reasonably well manufactured and will hold up over time. While not the end of the world, if it is a collectible that I care about, then yes, that would bother me to an extent. But if it was mass manufactured and others are in circulation at a price that I can afford, then at least there's that option.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by rpvee

What about downloading and backing up your digital purchases so they're not at the mercy of the provider's cloud? iTunes and Vudu let you download your purchases, that's what I do...

Do you also buy every movie that's released in case it gets removed later?

When a digital movie is removed it is completely unavailable to everyone who hasn't bought it yet. With physical media there is no time limit on when I can buy it. If it goes out of print I can buy a used copy.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

What if one of their favorite movies leaves and they can't replace it?

Digital rentals and subscription services make sense. Everything is short lived but people recognize that and they don't care.

But buying digital movies doesn't make sense. You and especially alchav are insisting that everything in everyone's collection will last (alchav has claimed 99 years). You should be well aware that's not the case. If you're willing to take the risk, fine. But just don't argue that your digital collection is safe and secure.

Well once VUDU and iTunes and all that disappear and everyone's purchases are gone I'll agree with you. Right now, especially on the cusp of FTC and other legal matters sure to come from EFT and others, I'm not sitting around paranoid over it. Digital content licenses are protected under existing laws so until a court tells me they can strip something I bought without recourse or it being moved to another format or application it's all speculation.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I will leave with the following observation. Why the heck would you own a disc/copy you don't care for?

When you own thousands of films you don't love everything.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

To an extent that might be true, but it's still a bad attitude to take as it sets a bad precedent.

Someone may not necessarily care of even notice if some random movie that they bought that they didn't care for and watched once ten years ago disappears. But if it happens to a movie that they really enjoy and rewatch frequently, that will piss them off (and some people's favorite movies aren't necessarily going to be big name blockbusters).

What you have said here roughly fall into the category of people who are aware of the potential ramifications, but basically choose to stick their head in the sand and assume that it will either never happen to them, or that if it does, it will only be to a random movie that they watched once 10 years ago and haven't though about since.



Much like your reasoning skills.

Ah yes. My reasoning being grounded in reality and not tied to fear mongering and worrying about movies...I know. Instead of being concerned about every other thing going on I should be concerned that my copy of The Lego Movie will be in a digital library when I'm in my late 70's. I could be dying and just want to be told everything is awesome one more time...

I have more physical media than almost everyone on this board, I just don't care to sit around and bash people who buy digital. It's stupid to get my panties in a twist over whether something may or may not disappear. I guess the original film makers copies disappear, all the online archives suddenly are erased, it's raining frogs, water turns to blood... What the hell is the worry here? How many people have re-bought movies constantly over the last few years? I mean, really? Tons right? So if digital disappears the same timeline of a new format happens. That's the market. It's been going like this for 30+ years.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by Groot

Digital content licenses are protected under existing laws so until a court tells me they can strip something I bought without recourse or it being moved to another format or application it's all speculation.

Do these laws not protect video games? Plenty of those have been removed with absolutely no recourse. What are these laws that specifically protect digital movies from being removed?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Groot

And it doesn't change the fact that you are taking the context of one thing and applying it to another.

You mean like you taking the context of losing access to specific movie titles and applying it to more general items like clothes and cars?

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

You mean like you taking the context of losing access to specific movie titles and applying it to more general items like clothes and cars?

It all comes back to limited ownership rights and how long something lasts. Movies are entertainment, if they last they last, if they don't who cares? It's amusing that you guys are more invested and want more rights for a disc than you do your own house.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Groot

It all comes back to limited ownership rights and how long something lasts. Movies are entertainment, if they last they last, if they don't who cares? It's amusing that you guys are more invested and want more rights for a disc than you do your own house.

Who says we are more concerned about access to discs and movies than we are our own house? That's a straw-man argument that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

None of this means that we don't have our general priorities in life straight, with movies ranking far lower than many other things that are far more important. But the topic at hand here IS movies, specifically physical vs. digital and comparing the pros and cons of both. The topic is NOT how those things rank in importance compared to all other aspects of our lives. You are the one bringing that into the mix in order to make your argument look more rational and reasoned than it really is.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Who says we are more concerned about access to discs and movies than we are our own house? That's a straw-man argument that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

None of this means that we don't have our general priorities in life straight. But the topic at hand here IS movies, specifically physical vs. digital and comparing the pros and cons of both. The topic is NOT how those things rank in importance compared to all other aspects of our lives. You are the one bringing that into the mix in order to make your argument look more rational than it really is.

Groot will go and moan to her/his clique in the general mega thread now. We are being (in my opinion) bad mouthed over there. We are aggressive and bad posters apparently. Oh and we are 'those people'

[darkknightman]

All of this fear and anxiety over plastic discs is not worth the energy. I recommend that some of you watch documentaries like the Minimalists or other such material regarding consumption. I am 44 years old and have been around for all of the formats and it just isn't worth it anymore. If my digital movies disappear then life will go on. Life is too short and there are more important things to stress over than movie collections.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

Do these laws not protect video games? Plenty of those have been removed with absolutely no recourse. What are these laws that specifically protect digital movies from being removed?

Arguing EULA requires looking at various forms of the law and applying them jointly:

IP Laws
Media Laws
Data Protection Laws

Google: Data Protection US Digital Media and read up on it

Some states even have laws now that you can assign your digital assets upon death. So far the EULA's haven't been taken to court yet, but just like the TOS cases against places like Blockbuster from the 5th Circuit, should your digital media disappear without notice or recourse it violates those laws already in place for license agreements. Basic contract law comes into play.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

You most certainly are. No one is saying that Blu-Ray and/or DVD is "perfect." But there are downsides to digital and the end purchaser's rights that simply don't exist with physical media.

For some, it an unacceptable trade off. On the opposite side, some are aware of the trade off, but opt to gamble with the potential future consequences.

But in between those two unfortunately are people who just take the accessibility of digital content for granted and simply assume nothing will ever go wrong or be removed, and won't wake up to the issues until it is too late.


I could go on, but you would probably misunderstand, misinterpret, and oversimplify it all again, so there really isn't much of a point in taking the time to do so.

Fact 1: People on this thread who only support discs claim that all discs will be playable out of the box regardless of what studios do in the future. That is FALSE studios can make it and in some cases have already made it mandatory for Blu Ray players to connect to the internet in-order to be able to have playback.

Fact 2: Disc only supporters keep claiming that the studios can and will eventually delete people's digital collections simply because they have the ability to do so and are not going to wanna pay the pennies required to maintain movies that aren't selling anymore in people's existing collections. FALSE: This makes no business sense whatsoever. If people's digital collections start disappearing so does the money studios receive from the people purchasing their digital products.

Fact 3: Disc only supporters continue to believe that as long as a film is being released via disc they will NEVER lose access to it. FALSE: Studios may not be able to remove the physical copy from your possession but they can make certain that you have to connect to the internet in-order to view the content on the disc.

I give these examples to illustrate that disc only supporters are in the same boat as digital only supporters. The best thing is to balance between both formats. Nobody is immune to DRM and some of you who say you won't buy discs that are controlled won't have a choice in the matter because you won't know till you have already purchased the disc. Living in a connected world means that studios can assume that people who have enough money to purchase blu rays can afford an internet connection for mandatory software/hardware playback updates.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Who says we are more concerned about access to discs and movies than we are our own house? That's a straw-man argument that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

None of this means that we don't have our general priorities in life straight, with movies ranking far lower than many other things that are far more important. But the topic at hand here IS movies, specifically physical vs. digital and comparing the pros and cons of both. The topic is NOT how those things rank in importance compared to all other aspects of our lives. You are the one bringing that into the mix in order to make your argument look more rational and reasoned than it really is.

This thread is wayyyyy past debating the pros and cons as there's only so many things that can be said here. Bashing on people who buy digital or vice versa is ridiculous. Sprouting hypotheticals that may never come to pass or would be far into the future is silly. You buy it, you don't. Just don't declare that if something is digital that there would be no copies ever found again anywhere on earth.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

Fact 1: People on this thread who only support discs claim that all discs will be playable out of the box regardless of what studios do in the future. That is FALSE studios can make it and in some cases have already made it mandatory for Blu Ray players to connect to the internet in-order to be able to have playback.

I never claimed that no discs have online requirements. I don't buy the discs that do. But it is impossible to add an online requirement to existing discs that don't already have them.

Originally Posted by zodwriter

Fact 2: Disc only supporters keep claiming that the studios can and will eventually delete people's digital collections simply because they have the ability to do so and are not going to wanna pay the pennies required to maintain movies that aren't selling anymore in people's existing collections. FALSE: This makes no business sense whatsoever. If people's digital collections start disappearing so does the money studios receive from the people purchasing their digital products.

Plenty of video games have been deleted from digital collections and it didn't stop most people from buying new ones. The same thing will likely happen with old unpopular movies when the digital providers have achieved enough customer loyalty. Most digital supporters have stated if a few movies disappear from their collections it's not a big deal. So obviously the studios won't lose them as customers if that happens.

Originally Posted by zodwriter

Fact 3: Disc only supporters continue to believe that as long as a film is being released via disc they will NEVER lose access to it. FALSE: Studios may not be able to remove the physical copy from your possession but they can make certain that you have to connect to the internet in-order to view the content on the disc.

How would it be possible for any company to make my Blu-ray players that aren't connected to the internet suddenly require an internet connection to play the discs I already have (or any of the other discs they've already pressed)?

[zodwriter]

PenguinMaster I never claimed that future discs can't have online requirements. I won't buy those discs. It is impossible to add an online requirement to existing discs.

You won't know that these future discs have online requirements till after they are purchased. My Rogue One experiment disproved your theory that most older Blu Ray players can play all discs without having to ever connect to the internet. I don't know what type of Blu Ray players you have but the 3 I tried all required an internet update before being able to read the disc. Which means that people who own any of these players thinking they can watch Rogue One without first having the player update online are going to be stuck watching the DVD.


How would it be possible for any company to make my Blu-ray player that sn't connected to the internet suddenly require an internet connection to play the discs I already have (or any of the other discs they've already pressed)?

You seem to believe that the Blu Ray player you are currently using will be available for the rest of your life. Hopefully you will be lucky and that particular model out lives you. However in all likelihood you will eventually need to buy a new Blu Ray player and when you do it will require internet connectivity. This possibility alone devalues your whole argument about never going digital because once you are online for discs there are no benefits to make them better than digital because DRM rules everything.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

You won't know that these future discs have online requirements till after they are purchased.

If I buy a disc and it doesn't work without an internet connection then I'll return it. I'm not paying for that crap.

Rogue One works fine on all my players by the way.

Originally Posted by zodwriter

You seem that the Blu Ray player you are currently using will be available for the rest of your life. Hopefully you will be lucky and that particular model out lives you. However in all likelihood you will eventually need to buy a new Blu Ray player and when you do it will require internet connectivity.

If future Blu-ray players require internet connections and all of mine break then I'll buy older used ones that don't require an internet connection.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

If I buy a disc and it doesn't work without an internet connection then I'll return it. I'm not paying for that crap.

Rogue One works fine on all my players by the way.



If future Blu-ray players require internet connections and all of mine break then I'll buy older used ones that don't require an internet connection.

Yes, same here Zod. My copy works just fine (Oppo and PS4/PS3.)

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

If I buy a disc and it doesn't work without an internet connection then I'll return it. I'm not paying for that crap.

Rogue One works fine on all my players by the way.



If future Blu-ray players require internet connections and all of mine break then I'll buy older used ones that don't require an internet connection.

Again hopefully the model you are using that magically can play anything and everything without ever needing an internet update is available for your use indefinitely. In-fact if you wouldn't mind I would like to know what player you are currently using so I can get one over the weekend. Personally I have no problem with connecting devices to the internet, it's a part of life and I accept that. You say you will not ever accept that so I hope for your happiness and love of film your player situation does not change.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yes, same here Zod. My copy works just fine (Oppo and PS4/PS3.)

Rogue One would not play in my PS3 but then again most Blu Rays won't anymore. I plan to get a PS4 shortly though. PenguinMaster says the games will work without an internet connection and I can't wait to test that for myself.