Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I was the person who gave the example of losing the TV Series Journeyman from my Amazon digital library back in 2007. It was unfortunate and a digital horror story. The thing is though in the case of that series the studio completely removed it from all digital services and never released it on disc in the United States. So I don't really blame Amazon anymore because I realize it was back during the infancy of the format. My regret was that the series never got another release and I would have to import to get the show on DVD. VUDU as far as my personal experience goes has been fair. They have never removed anything I bought and I have plenty of out of print titles still in my library from back in 2010 when VUDU was a new service. I defend them because I have not seen any examples of where they have completely removed a legitimately purchased film or TV Show from someone's collection. There was one instance on here where a company lost the digital rights to a certain movie that was in HDX and VUDU was forced to downgrade them to an SD copy. That person didn't lose the movie. Beyond that nothing like what PenguinMaster and a few others will tell you in this thread. VUDU wants customers to continue to purchase content and redeem digital codes through their service, if they want to keep customers, they are not going to delete anything.

So digital providers have taken things away. But since Vudu hasn't taken anything away in 7 years you have absolute confidence that everything you buy will continue to be available for the rest of your life? That's quite a big leap.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I was the person who gave the example of losing the TV Series Journeyman from my Amazon digital library back in 2007. It was unfortunate and a digital horror story. The thing is though in the case of that series the studio completely removed it from all digital services and never released it on disc in the United States. So I don't really blame Amazon anymore because I realize it was back during the infancy of the format. My regret was that the series never got another release and I would have to import to get the show on DVD. VUDU as far as my personal experience goes has been fair. They have never removed anything I bought and I have plenty of out of print titles still in my library from back in 2010 when VUDU was a new service. I defend them because I have not seen any examples of where they have completely removed a legitimately purchased film or TV Show from someone's collection. There was one instance on here where a company lost the digital rights to a certain movie that was in HDX and VUDU was forced to downgrade them to an SD copy. That person didn't lose the movie. Beyond that nothing like what PenguinMaster and a few others will tell you in this thread. VUDU wants customers to continue to purchase content and redeem digital codes through their service, if they want to keep customers, they are not going to delete anything.

I think you have been the most thorough and logical supporter of Digital HD. Both Steedeel and PenguinMaster are just Die Hard Disc Enthusiast, and have this Paranoia that it's demise will somehow jeopardize the Movie Arts. That means Movies not Printed to Disc will be lost and gone forever. The Major Studios have all gone Digital, and all their Movies are on Servers backed up many times. I think some of the Independent Studios still shoot on Film, and of course the older Movies were on Film but anything Digitized will be Stored on Servers. My point being is that if there is a demand for a Movie, it can be pulled out from Storage and sent to Print, nothing is ever lost.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by alchav21

My point being is that if there is a demand for a Movie, it can be pulled out from Storage and sent to Print, nothing is ever lost.

Only if there is high demand for a movie. There are already plenty of movies and TV shows that are no longer available. I'm sure that the studios still have copies of those movies so they aren't technically lost, but very few people have the ability to watch them.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Paranoia that it's demise will somehow jeopardize the Movie Arts. That means Movies not Printed to Disc will be lost and gone forever.

I don't think anyone is worried about "Lost Arts", I think the worry about Digital is availability to the public will be 100% controlled with no aftermarket, and can be taken away by the push of the button.

None of that can be done with physical media.

*

[unsung122212]

Since most of these 'what if' stuff are more about things 10-20 years in the future, I would think by then that if digital streaming/downloading has become mainstream, then I would imagine the laws would have updated to better detail the rights of the studio, provider and buyer of these digital sells. We are already seeing issues on what is and isn't allowed now. Hopefully in 10-20 years when these titles that are no longer on sale and not making money that it would force the providers to delete the digital file from the servers, that their would be laws to help insure ones purchase by allowing the person to download the digital file themselves by a certain date.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by unsung122212

Since most of these 'what if' stuff are more about things 10-20 years in the future, I would think by then that if digital streaming/downloading has become mainstream, then I would imagine the laws would have updated to better detail the rights of the studio, provider and buyer of these digital sells. We are already seeing issues on what is and isn't allowed now. Hopefully in 10-20 years when these titles that are no longer on sale and not making money that it would force the providers to delete the digital file from the servers, that their would be laws to help insure ones purchase by allowing the person to download the digital file themselves by a certain date.

This is actually a really good point. I've watched the wild west of the Internet from the Arpanet days and have watched it slowly tame due to new laws in place. I can see my worries lessening about vaporware movies with laws in place to keep the studios and distributors from being tyrannical.

*

*

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

So digital providers have taken things away. But since Vudu hasn't taken anything away in 7 years you have absolute confidence that everything you buy will continue to be available for the rest of your life? That's quite a big leap.

All I'm saying is that VUDU has never removed anything from my library. I've had everything I ever purchased since I first created my account. From everything I have seen and read from other people here and other places nobody else has had anything completely removed from their VUDU accounts either. So if I base my belief they will leave my content alone on their 7 year track record there is nothing to indicate that will change. Amazon is a completely different platform and the content I lost was back in 2007. I'm sure I'm not the only one who lost content in 2007 but if studios or digital providers were to try that in 2017 they would lose customers in droves and that would kill their slowly growing business . You have pointed out that digital movies are not increasing enough in sales to survive without physical combo packs. Yet you moan about digital being the reason a lot of smaller films never make it to Blu Ray. The fact is studios want to do away with physical discs sooner than later otherwise everything would have a physical Blu Ray release. Studios are continuing to tolerate discs because people still purchase them. People purchase plenty of digital content too which is why neither format is going anywhere. I've said this before that the best way to handle this disc vs digital argument is to balance between both because it gives people on all sides plenty of choices. You are the one limiting yourself to a #NEVER DIGITAL mentality and that keeps you from being able to enjoy the positives from both formats.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by unsung122212

Since most of these 'what if' stuff are more about things 10-20 years in the future, I would think by then that if digital streaming/downloading has become mainstream, then I would imagine the laws would have updated to better detail the rights of the studio, provider and buyer of these digital sells. We are already seeing issues on what is and isn't allowed now. Hopefully in 10-20 years when these titles that are no longer on sale and not making money that it would force the providers to delete the digital file from the servers, that their would be laws to help insure ones purchase by allowing the person to download the digital file themselves by a certain date.

It would have to be mandated by law that if a provider is no longer going to support a title anymore they would have to provide a DRM-free download to all of their customers. It's possible, but unlikely.

Many laws have gone in the opposite direction. It's illegal for people to break copy-protection and DRM for personal use. Those laws only benefit the companies, not the customers.

In any case in digital's current state it is completely controlled by the studios and digital providers so I won't support it now. If those problems are fixed in the future then I won't have a problem with digital.

[BlakkMajik3000]

I think Penguin makes some great points, and I generally agree. The uncertainty is an issue. The fact that UV initially put in writing that retailers had to provide streams for a defined period is a sign that even the studios weren't entirely confident retailers wouldn't remove movies/charge per stream.

Of course, that restriction is now removed, because it doesn't really make good business sense to take movies away from people's collections. Digital movie distribution is extremely fragile right now. Any, and I mean any, move that can even be remotely spun to suggest people's movies aren't safe in the "cloud" will mean thousands, if not millions, of digital customers will immediately go back to buying only Blu-Rays at best, and downloading torrents at absolute worst.

Fact is, no one knows what will happen in 10 years. Even as a big supporter of digital, I still advise that if you really love a movie, buy a physical copy.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

It would have to be mandated by law that if a provider is no longer going to support a title anymore they would have to provide a DRM-free download to all of their customers. It's possible, but unlikely.

Many recent laws have gone in the opposite direction. It's illegal for people to break copy-protection and DRM for personal use. Those laws only benefit the companies, not the customers.

In any case in digital's current state it is completely controlled by the studios and digital providers so I won't support it now. If those problems are fixed in the future then I won't have a problem with digital.

Okay but you claim to even refuse to connect any of your devices to the internet. So perhaps your overall issue has more to do with everything being connected to the internet than digital movies vs Blu Ray? When VUDU and Ultraviolet were first introduced the whole idea behind it was that the digital versions would compliment the Blu Rays and DVDs giving customers the freedom to access their content on any device anywhere they are. As time went on and technology improved it became increasingly clear that digital movies were as viable as physical discs and the ease of access ushered in the current state of the industry where many people prefer digital to physical.

The reality of our connected world isn't going to change and sooner or later there will be no discernible differences between discs and digital content. The only difference will be one is a disc with packaging and the other is digital where you click on an icon to play. Video games have already proven that disc vs digital is negligible and beyond going into a store to buy it or downloading it directly from the game provider nothing is unique. So I can't understand what makes digital movies such a villainous enterprise to you PenguinMaster? Fearing that your movie collection could be randomly deleted someday is like fearing you could get hit by a bus when crossing the street. Anything could happen, but that doesn't mean it's going to.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by BlakkMajik3000

Fact is, no one knows what will happen in 10 years. Even as a big supporter of digital, I still advise that if you really love a movie, buy a physical copy.

I pointed out that it is best to enjoy both formats for what they are several times. I've had my VUDU account for 7 years and have lost nothing. So in 3 more years when that is still the case I think that will put another crack in the disc only argument.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

So perhaps your overall issue has more to do with everything being connected to the internet than digital movies vs Blu Ray?

It's both. There are basically 4 types of media distribution:

A) Physical media without online DRM
B) Physical media with online DRM
C) DRM-Free downloads
D) Downloads and streams with online DRM

Type A is the only one that can be both used and resold or given away without the original studios or distributors. That's the only type I support. So far all Blu-rays, DVDs, and CDs fit into this category. Most console video games also fit into this category.

Originally Posted by zodwriter

The reality of our connected world isn't going to change and sooner or later there will be no discernible differences between discs and digital content. The only difference will be one is a disc with packaging and the other is digital where you click on an icon to play. Video games have already proven that disc vs digital is negligible and beyond going into a store to buy it or downloading it directly from the game provider nothing is unique.

The same control and restrictions will only apply to both physical and digital if customers support that. In the PC gaming market they have: buying a disc of a game with online DRM is basically the same as buying the digital version. That's why I don't buy PC games. In the console gaming market they haven't: Microsoft tried that with their original plan for the Xbox One and there was a backlash.

As much as you keep claiming otherwise I know from personal experience that all of my movies, TV shows, and video games work without an internet connection so there is obviously a difference between downloading or streaming and buying a disc.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to say that everything will be controlled in the future so let's accept the control.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I pointed out that it is best to enjoy both formats for what they are several times. I've had my VUDU account for 7 years and have lost nothing. So in 3 more years when that is still the case I think that will put another crack in the disc only argument.

But that just means my Digital format in the future is open to the same rules and the same risks of losing access/ownership. It's amazing how fast things move once people accept something that would be unthinkable now. For instance, having to pay a monthly fee to access your own movies. Or how about a monthly fee to remove forced adverts? Maybe signing up to a certain wireless service and getting a bundle but being unable to watch in HD or 4K if you don't use that particular wireless provider?

Like I said before, I remember reading the small print of UV and (IMO) it baffles me why anyone would want to collect digitally. It would be safer just to rent and that's exactly what I would do if Disc ever ceases to exist.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by zodwriter

Okay but you claim to even refuse to connect any of your devices to the internet. So perhaps your overall issue has more to do with everything being connected to the internet than digital movies vs Blu Ray? When VUDU and Ultraviolet were first introduced the whole idea behind it was that the digital versions would compliment the Blu Rays and DVDs giving customers the freedom to access their content on any device anywhere they are. As time went on and technology improved it became increasingly clear that digital movies were as viable as physical discs and the ease of access ushered in the current state of the industry where many people prefer digital to physical.

The reality of our connected world isn't going to change and sooner or later there will be no discernible differences between discs and digital content. The only difference will be one is a disc with packaging and the other is digital where you click on an icon to play. Video games have already proven that disc vs digital is negligible and beyond going into a store to buy it or downloading it directly from the game provider nothing is unique. So I can't understand what makes digital movies such a villainous enterprise to you PenguinMaster? Fearing that your movie collection could be randomly deleted someday is like fearing you could get hit by a bus when crossing the street. Anything could happen, but that doesn't mean it's going to.

You have a false idea of how well Digital is going if you mean EST. If you mean subscription, then yes, fair enough comment.

The thing with games is, there is no difference in quality from the very start. Discs are completely different as we are talking high quality audio and high bit rate compression. As we have 4K UHD now, it will be a long time before Digital gets near disc quality. It's basically always playing catch up.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by BlakkMajik3000

I think Penguin makes some great points, and I generally agree. The uncertainty is an issue. The fact that UV initially put in writing that retailers had to provide streams for a defined period is a sign that even the studios weren't entirely confident retailers wouldn't remove movies/charge per stream.

Of course, that restriction is now removed, because it doesn't really make good business sense to take movies away from people's collections. Digital movie distribution is extremely fragile right now. Any, and I mean any, move that can even be remotely spun to suggest people's movies aren't safe in the "cloud" will mean thousands, if not millions, of digital customers will immediately go back to buying only Blu-Rays at best, and downloading torrents at absolute worst.

Fact is, no one knows what will happen in 10 years. Even as a big supporter of digital, I still advise that if you really love a movie, buy a physical copy.

And you were a guy who was convinced that Digital was the future? Is that a fair comment? Certainly by past conversations, I got that impression.

[Steedeel]

Oh, and I see we are still getting a mention on the general waffle mega thread. Those guys can't leave it be can they?

[huskerbear]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Isn't it in the Ultraviolet small print that you can lose access to your content or be prevented from downloading said content after a certain amount of time?

Not a statement, just a question.

Ultraviolet does not offer access to play content. UV is a digital rights locker only. They say you will never lose rights to your content. This is why many wont purchase without the UV logo. The players like Vudu will have their own terms and conditions.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

And you were a guy who was convinced that Digital was the future? Is that a fair comment? Certainly by past conversations, I got that impression.

Digital is the future. However, all the competing formats/technology make it largely unknown how everything will play out.

I would say that as of today, the only studio doing digital relatively well is Disney, and the only retailers doing it well are iTunes (features) and Vudu (content). That leaves a lot of studios/retailers that aren't doing what I think makes digital distribution sustainable in the long run.

Eventually, there will have to be one or two digital formats that all players/retailers support. The fact that no other "big" digital retailers support UV, after years on the market, is a troubling sign for the format. The DECE must figure out how to bring Apple, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft into the mix.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by BlakkMajik3000

Digital is the future. However, all the competing formats/technology make it largely unknown how everything will play out.

I would say that as of today, the only studio doing digital relatively well is Disney, and the only retailers doing it well are iTunes (features) and Vudu (content). That leaves a lot of studios/retailers that aren't doing what I think makes digital distribution sustainable in the long run.

Eventually, there will have to be one or two digital formats that all players/retailers support. The fact that no other "big" digital retailers support UV, after years on the market, is a troubling sign for the format. The DECE must figure out how to bring Apple, Amazon, Google, and Microsoft into the mix.

Subscription yes, not collecting Dogital films. Not a chance IMO.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Subscription yes, not collecting Dogital films. Not a chance IMO.

If we are lucky, it will play out like digital music has. "All you can eat" for streamers, DRM-free downloads for purchasers, and physical disc for the most discerning of viewers (of which you would likely be a part of).

I definitely do not see an either/or scenario between digital vs physical media.