Dark Force Entertainment Discussion Thread

[cloudnine]

To keep jacking up the prices for a bluray (SOAWN) that hasn't even been released yet is OUTRAGEOUS!

[bsend]

Originally Posted by Ruined

"Whines of a Cheapskate's Plight"

If you are a business, is this the mission statement you want to have? It's a negative attitude to have and it makes some heavy assumptions/accusations on your customer base. "If you don't buy my product on Day 1, you are cheap and deserve to spend some more money later". It doesn't take into account people who save up for releases (this never had an official release date), stick to a budget, want to wait for a review, or might like horror films but not prioritize the movie as an immediate purchase. All of these individuals are labeled as "cheap" with this belief.

Ruined, it's great that you buy many of your releases on Day 1. It could be due to enough disposable income to do so, or that you prioritize movie purchases above other things. The point is the sales model benefits your buying pattern, so you don't care about the downstream effects on other fans/customers. This is the kind of mentality I don't like in hobbies. Craft breweries often have limited releases where customers are limited to 1-2 bottles/packs. It's not uncommon to see an individual bring family/friends who aren't interested in beer purchase the maximum allocation as well so that individual can hoard extra beer and brag about it. It ruins the core aspect of the hobby which is beer should be bringing everyone together and fostering a community. This practice closes off fans from enjoying a hobby, rather than bringing us all together to enjoy it.

I love to see more boutique blu ray labels to join the community. You can easily win me over by being genuine, and caring about the profession/community/customers. Take Vinegar Syndrome. I wasn't a fan of Massage Parlor Murders or Night Train to Terror. The company's attitude towards the films it released and its customers won me over. I kept exploring their catalog and found many gems. Now I am a subscriber for all of their releases. VS drew me in and I am happy to support them in all of their endeavors.

DarkForce drew me in. I always wanted to see Offerings, and grabbed that. It was slow in the beginning but the last act was unsettling to me for some reason. Dave is genuinely excited about his movies and releasing them on blu. Back Lot Murders wasn't spectacular, but it was a fun low budget 2000s slasher. I enjoyed it. Thinking about checking out Chaos. Can't wait to watch Kill or Be Killed, since DarkForce took a chance on releasing a film that didn't have the best elements but was a lot of fun. The fast free shipping was awesome on the store, and I used it a lot for Code Red/DarkForce releases. The practice of walling off customers goes against some of the actions that made the company an interesting entry to the business. I would say that the best practice would be to determine a fair price for the release based on the work put in and make it available/advertise it to move the units it should.

[cakefactory]

Did anyone consider that maybe Ruined is not a shill, but a sleeper agent trying to destroy Dark Force from the inside? He's just starting to reveal his strategy!

I'm kinda curious about this movie, but yeah...not giving DeFalco a dime. Dude is skeezy as hell. Sorry!

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bsend

business

I understand your concern about excluding customers but Blu-ray collectors have it pretty good.

Take a look at Mondo poster collectors, they drop runs at scheduled times of 75 posters total @$80/ea and they sell out sometimes seconds after they announce on Twitter (or even before Twitter, often to bots monitoring website changes). Now *that* is excluding customers.

200 copies of a Blu-ray title that is not a big name will take more time to go through. And then there will be more after that at incrementally higher prices. You can look at it as punishing people who don't buy right away, or you could alternately look at it as rewarding loyal fans who buy at release. Other companies use slipcovers or books to encourage purchase for much more money on release, personally I'd rather save cash at release than get a slipcover.

Either way code red isn't going to survive if people continue to wait until their titles are sold for $7 at Hamilton book before buying, and the licenses themselves often aren't big enough names on their own to move big numbers quickly.

[Hedji]

I don't know why this title appeals to me so much, it just does. But I am ashamed that I will be refreshing the storefront to try to "score" this at a "lower price".

Dark Force, Please, please reconsider this strategy. It is popular with no one. No one.

If you can take your business model and adjust it based on one forum member's suggestion, then please consider adjusting it based on multiple opinions. Stop the nonsense if it isn't too late.

[EaglesDare1987]

Originally Posted by Ruined

One other side note - USPS reserves right to open and inspect all media mail packages. I once traded in like $400 of DVDs a long time ago to a reputable DVD online store, and sent via media mail. Mysteriously, around half the DVDs were stolen on the way... probably due to an "inspection" as it went directly to the DVD store's warehouse.

Sure, they "reserve" the right but how often do they do it? I've been shipping VHS,DVD and Blus for years as I was involved in the wrestling tape trading scene in the late 90s-early 2000s. I never once had a package opened and I've sent and received more than I could count.

[Zarak]

We ... will be releasing the first 200 copies at an EARLY BIRD SPECIAL! The price will increase incrementally with each batch the run.

The first part is fine with me. Many labels and retailers offer discounts for preorders.

The rest is crazy, but DF says a lot of stuff without ever following through.

[DaveyJoe]

I don't believe Ruined is a shill because he's extremely unsuccessful at bringing people over to his line of thinking. He enjoys playing Devil's Advocate but if DF is paying him they're throwing money away because Ruined has done nothing to improve their reputation on this forum.

[kraven]

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe

I don't believe Ruined is a shill because he's extremely unsuccessful at bringing people over to his line of thinking. He enjoys playing Devil's Advocate but if DF is paying him they're throwing money away because Ruined has done nothing to improve their reputation on this forum.

You're looking at it rationally. You gotta look at it wrestlingly. DF believe there is no such thing as bad press. He is just another heel in their faction.

[bsend]

Originally Posted by Ruined

I understand your concern about excluding customers but Blu-ray collectors have it pretty good.

Take a look at Mondo poster collectors, they drop runs at scheduled times of 75 posters total @$80/ea and they sell out sometimes seconds after they announce on Twitter (or even before Twitter, often to bots monitoring website changes). Now *that* is excluding customers.

200 copies of a Blu-ray title that is not a big name will take more time to go through. And then there will be more after that at incrementally higher prices. You can look at it as punishing people who don't buy right away, or you could alternately look at it as rewarding loyal fans who buy at release. Other companies use slipcovers or books to encourage purchase for much more money on release, personally I'd rather save cash at release than get a slipcover.

Either way code red isn't going to survive if people continue to wait until their titles are sold for $7 at Hamilton book before buying, and the licenses themselves often aren't big enough names on their own to move big numbers quickly.

That is a different kind of sales issue with the poster example. It is a limited quantity item at a high cost. The model suggested for the blu ray release is to keep increasing the price. Also for debate purposes, using the logic "this practice is worse" so this "bad practice isn't that bad" doesn't really justify the practice you are defending.

I agree that other companies use slip covers and other limited features to get customers to buy early. A standard release usually comes out afterwards. Having a "preorder" or "Early bird special" pricing is totally a reasonable business move. Once that period is over you go to the MSRP or slightly discounted below MSRP price. The model proposed was to keep boosting the price of the item, not having an MSRP, and pushing the price of the item above what a customer would consider a reasonable MSRP. The Necromancy pricing is a good example of that. The title sold for $22, was pulled and then sold at prices far above the previous price without a justification in work done to the release other than rareness.

From a business standpoint I agree that you can't sell overstock discs to stay afloat. Squeezing a few extra bucks per unit out of your customers isn't a long term strategy for financial success.

[Braktastic]

Originally Posted by kraven

You gotta look at it wrestlingly.

This needs to be center-square on the new Dark Forces Bingo Card.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by bsend

That is a different kind of sales issue with the poster example. It is a limited quantity item at a high cost. The model suggested for the blu ray release is to keep increasing the price.

There are a lot of different models out there, this is just one attempt for Code Red's unique "portfolio." The Twilight Time model, for instance, of selling discs for $29.99-$34.99 I think is a less desirable model - though I think it actually worked up until the point Twilight Time started repressing discs and having sales (not to mention putting out far less well known licenses with too large of a print run) - now everyone just waits for a sale for virtually every Twilight Time title and I wouldn't be surprised if that label throws in the towel soon.

VCI has another type of model , cheap discs with little effort put into them. I also find that less desirable.

A lot of the models people point to as successful don't necessarily mesh with the almost exclusively lesser known licenses that code red puts out. You can't put a lot of restoration money into titles with little name recognition and then go ahead and charge peanuts for them, the financials won't work.

I think it would be more helpful if we got some additional clarity on the new model, but I'm sure that will happen in time. Also keep in mind, it seems this only applies to the one title and not all titles.

Also for debate purposes, using the logic "this practice is worse" so this "bad practice isn't that bad" doesn't really justify the practice you are defending.

Well, I was debating your point of "exclusion" not so much which practice is worse. If a customer has no opportunity or virtually no opportunity to buy something, I'd agree that is exclusion. I don't see that here, though. These Blu-rays at release even on the high side are not much more than a few fraps at Starbucks, so I don't see the exclusion component. While it is true that you have to pay more money over time, from a "fan" perspective this seems more desirable than the idea of the people being most faithful also having pay the most. Why shouldn't the more faithful fans get a break?

I agree that other companies use slip covers and other limited features to get customers to buy early. A standard release usually comes out afterwards.

Sometimes "afterwards" is 6 months. I prefer a model where you pay less upfront and get immediately - another good example is Vinegar Syndrome's yearly subscription model which I highly recommend.

Having a "preorder" or "Early bird special" pricing is totally a reasonable business move. Once that period is over you go to the MSRP or slightly discounted below MSRP price. The model proposed was to keep boosting the price of the item, not having an MSRP, and pushing the price of the item above what a customer would consider a reasonable MSRP.

The thing is, they are only going to sell a certain amount of units (say 1000). By the end of that run, the label wants to make a certain amount of profit. If you make it really cheap to start with and then price it normally, you are not going to make back the money you "lost" making it cheap to start with. If the virtual "MSRP" is somewhere in the middle of the print run sales, though, with earlier copies being cheaper and later copies being more expensive - then you make the same amount of money as if you sold all copies at MSRP; the main difference is that you get a quick big boost of sales to begin with and are able to continue to profit (at a slower pace) even at the end of the run whereas in a traditional model some people would be waiting for a half price sale. If the half price sale never comes, then it behooves the buyer to buy ASAP; when we are talking about incremental cost, the only people really paying any larger than usual amount would be those buying well past halfway the print run has sold through - which is going to take time with lesser known titles.

The Necromancy pricing is a good example of that. The title sold for $22, was pulled and then sold at prices far above the previous price without a justification in work done to the release other than rareness.

I am guessing Necromancy has actually been one of the more profitable discs for Code Red, so using that as an example of a bad business move is probably not the best choice. While people don't particularly like the pricing, its one of those things where people protest how they will never buy something, etc, but then end up secretly buying it anyway (like microtransactions in games). Personally I bought Necromancy at release, so I paid the low price.

From a business standpoint I agree that you can't sell overstock discs to stay afloat. Squeezing a few extra bucks per unit out of your customers isn't a long term strategy for financial success.

A lot of those overstock discs were cheap even on release and people still didn't buy them (and still aren't buying them at under $10). Meanwhile Necromancy sells out @ $40 every time it goes up. I think perhaps having different models for different titles may be the best way to maximize profit.

Also, instead of getting mad, one could look at this as a bit of a competitive game to see how low of a price one can score. Why so serious?

[Davidian]

Originally Posted by Ruined

There are a lot of different models out there, this is just one. The Twilight Time model, for instance, of selling discs for $29.99-$34.99 I think is a less desirable model - though I think it actually worked up until the point Twilight Time started repressing discs and having sales (not to mention putting out far less well known licenses with too large of a print run) - now everyone just waits for a sale for virtually every Twilight Time title and I wouldn't be surprised if that label throws in the towel soon.

VCI has another type of model , cheap discs with little effort put into them. I also find that less desirable.

A lot of the models people point to as successful don't necessarily mesh with the almost exclusively lesser known licenses that code red puts out. You can't put a lot of restoration money into titles with little name recognition and then go ahead and charge peanuts for them, the financials won't work.

I think it would be more helpful if we got some additional clarity on the new model, but I'm sure that will happen in time. Also keep in mind, it seems this only applies to the one title and not all titles.



Well, I was debating your point of "exclusion" not so much which practice is worse. If a customer has no opportunity or virtually no opportunity to buy something, I'd agree that is exclusion. I don't see that here, though. These Blu-rays even on the high side are not much more than a few lattes at Starbucks, so I don't see the exclusion component. While it is true that you have to pay more money over time, from a "fan" perspective this seems more desirable than the idea of the people being most faithful also having pay the most. Why shouldn't the more faithful fans get a break?



Sometimes "afterwards" is 6 months. I prefer a model where you pay less upfront and get immediately - another good example is Vinegar Syndrome's yearly subscription model which I highly recommend.



The thing is, they are only going to sell a certain amount of units (say 1000). By the end of that run, the label wants to make a certain amount of profit. If you make it really cheap to start with and then price it normally, you are not going to make back the money you "lost" making it cheap to start with. If the virtual "MSRP" is somewhere in the middle of the print run sales, though, with earlier copies being cheaper and later copies being more expensive - then you make the same amount of money as if you sold all copies at MSRP; the main difference is that you get a quick big boost of sales to begin with and are able to continue to profit (at a slower pace) even at the end of the run whereas in a traditional model some people would be waiting for a half price sale. If the half price sale never comes, then it behooves the buyer to buy ASAP; when we are talking about incremental cost, the only people really paying any larger than usual amount would be those buying well past halfway the print run has sold through - which is going to take time with lesser known titles.

I am guessing Necromancy has actually been one of the more profitable discs for Code Red, so using that as an example of a bad business move is probably not the best choice. While people don't particularly like the pricing, its one of those things where people protest how they will never buy something, etc, but then end up secretly buying it anyway (like microtransactions in games). Personally I bought Necromancy at release, so I paid the low price.



A lot of those overstock discs were cheap even on release and people still didn't buy them (and still aren't buying them at under $10). Meanwhile Necromancy sells out @ $40 every time it goes up. I think perhaps having different models for different titles may be the best way to maximize profit.

Also, instead of getting mad, one could look at this as a bit of a competitive game to see how low of a price one can score. Why so serious?

Yeah that’s what happens when you sell a disc for twice it’s MSRP... or triple on eBay...

[babybreese]

FORCED ENTRY has 2 cuts....
are we to expect the same nonsense on that title as well?

At least I think it has 2 cuts,
the press release was not exactly crystal clear.


Mirrorball will be here soon to make sense of everything......

[Arlington]

Originally Posted by babybreese

FORCED ENTRY has 2 cuts....
are we to expect the same nonsense on that title as well?

At least I think it has 2 cuts,
the press release was not exactly crystal clear.


Mirrorball will be here soon to make sense of everything......

I think the two cuts are getting two different releases: one on Code Red, one on Dark Force.

[barsalou]

The latest announcement/statement is ridiculous on so many levels, I don’t even know where to begin. The blurb about Ruined was especially hilarious, it honestly took away my desire to purchase Screams of a Winter Night… DeFalco must really think he is catering to a bunch of idiots. I’ll grab a copy if it’s a decent price upon release and I can get an order in before the prices are jacked up, if not I just won’t bother with the movie at all. Too bad, and… sad to say.

[CrowKiller]

It just gets better and better with DF. The perfect example of how to not run a store or label. While I can't speak for what it's like to run a label, I can fully say I know what it's like to run a online/offline retail store, as well as being even better at promoting shit. Now your taking BAD advice from someone on a forum, that most your consumer base doesn't seem to like or have respect for. Only seeming like good advice to you because he licks your ass. Not because it's actually good advice. Yay...more backlash.

Quit playing games and just sell your shit like every other label pretty much does. It's getting nauseating and annoying. Seems like a lot of what you're doing wrong could be easily avoided or changed. If you paid attention. Hell... all I wanted from CR/DF anymore was Mardi Gras Massacre and managed to snag one at a Diabolik. Thanks to a forum member giving me a heads up on a restock. Now I can't think of anything else I want. Anything desirable will be an outlandish price and the newer stuff coming is being sold like it's a game. Your customers don't want to play games. They just want to buy your shit. There's a reason why the likes of VS and others kick your asses in sales, and everyone seems to know why except you or Bill.

I guess I can still enjoy the shit show at least....

[Lianzantoro]

What are the extras on the SOAWN release?

[Braktastic]

Originally Posted by Lianzantoro

What are the extras on the SOAWN release?

Only the first 200 to order get extras.

[kraven]

After that the extras are an extra $5 then and extra $10.