Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Texan26]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I think you and I have a different idea of what 'dead' is.

It's irrelevant about difference in sales years if one can still access CD quite easily. The point I was making is that the digital fanboys have been spouting the death of disc but that's just clickbwit crap. It's only dead if we can't buy discs anymore. Any other description of dead is just silly Twitter generation crap.

But you claimed digital downloads are dead:
"You keep mentioning what the younger crowd think. I couldn't care less what they think. The point about CDs is you lot sound like those bloggers from 15 years ago declaring optical media dead. I tell you what is dead, those digital downloads that were supposed to be the future for the music..."


Per your definition, they are not dead since you can still buy digital downloads. Downloads outsold CDs last year. There were more CDs sold in 1987 than in 2016. CDs were barely a thing in 1987. CDs are dead. They are not a thing anymore. The majority that are sold are used to make mp3 copies to a smart phone or other media device.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Texan26

But you claimed digital downloads are dead:
"You keep mentioning what the younger crowd think. I couldn't care less what they think. The point about CDs is you lot sound like those bloggers from 15 years ago declaring optical media dead. I tell you what is dead, those digital downloads that were supposed to be the future for the music..."


Per your definition, they are not dead since you can still buy digital downloads. Downloads outsold CDs last year. There were more CDs sold in 1987 than in 2016. CDs were barely a thing in 1987. CDs are dead. They are not a thing anymore. The majority that are sold are used to make mp3 copies to a smart phone or other media device.

bollocks. You are making a huge assumption with that last sentence.

They are a thing. It's just nonsense to say otherwise. Is Vinyl not a thing either?

It's only dead to me, when I can no longer use it. I can easily get CDS, I can easily get a player. I don't cate that your description or others claims it's dead, it doesn't affect my ability to buy new CDS and buy new players. If I listened you you lot, I wouldn't have any vinyl to enjoy from a few years ago.

Right, thats me me done. If I post here anymore in the next week, I will remove myself from the forum.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by omarchafa

I'm physical all the way because I actually care about video and audio quality. No service out there can offer the same video and audio quality as a BD disc for movies and TV shows. Even if there is, I wouldn't bother with it because I want to own the product not download it, streamed it or rent it.

Originally Posted by Brandon K13534555

iTunes quality still kills me, I don't know why people buy from them when I believe they're the lowest quality of all the digital outlets.

Originally Posted by veritas

It depends on your system. Itunes looks way better then vudu on some systems. Itunes also depending on your preference has less noticeable compression then vudu or amazon. Itunes sd copies to be specific look many times better then vudu sd copies. If you have an ipad vudu wont even let you download the film in hd making iTunes clearly better for travel for ipad owners. Itunes also gives you way more extras.

Like somebody else said it also depends on the film offered. some older films still have old encodes that don't hold up as well but that's true for some vudu digital copies also.

Yes all the ratings on Streaming Providers always puts iTunes at the bottom, and I think Amazon and Vudu are at the top. As for Physical Discs, their sales are just not what they use to be. I know you guys think that eBay is a small window, but even the 4K Discs are not selling. I remember a time when I would put something up, it would sell right away for close to my purchased price, not anymore. It looks like I might lose 50% or more. Nobody wants Discs!

[flyry]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes all the ratings on Streaming Providers always puts iTunes at the bottom, and I think Amazon and Vudu are at the top. As for Physical Discs, their sales are just not what they use to be. I know you guys think that eBay is a small window, but even the 4K Discs are not selling. I remember a time when I would put something up, it would sell right away for close to my purchased price, not anymore. It looks like I might lose 50% or more. Nobody wants Discs![/

I have a hard time moving those 3D discs that I got with steelbooks whether it's Civil War or Rogue one

[Texan26]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

bollocks. You are making a huge assumption with that last sentence.

They are a thing. It's just nonsense to say otherwise. Is Vinyl not a thing either?

It's only dead to me, when I can no longer use it. I can easily get CDS, I can easily get a player. I don't cate that your description or others claims it's dead, it doesn't affect my ability to buy new CDS and buy new players. If I listened you you lot, I wouldn't have any vinyl to enjoy from a few years ago.

Right, thats me me done. If I post here anymore in the next week, I will remove myself from the forum.

You have stated digital downloads are dead. You have stated UV is dead. I'm still able to buy both.

Vinyl is not a mainstream thing. It's just over sensationalized by those click bait bloggers you always mention.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes all the ratings on Streaming Providers always puts iTunes at the bottom, and I think Amazon and Vudu are at the top. As for Physical Discs, their sales are just not what they use to be. I know you guys think that eBay is a small window, but even the 4K Discs are not selling. I remember a time when I would put something up, it would sell right away for close to my purchased price, not anymore. It looks like I might lose 50% or more. Nobody wants Discs!

What ratings are you going by? The ones I have seen go back and forth between iTunes and Vudu in terms of which movie has better quality with amazon almost always coming in dead last among the 3.

Ebay has alot of its own problems that have nothing to do with physical media. More people are doing what you are doing with physical media then in the past, eBay has some serious bootleg problems, amazon also sells used movies shrinking demand on eBay even more, your selling an incomplete product that is also no longer new and ebay has shrinking revenue per user on average . None of these things relate to if sombody wants discs its simply the lost value of taking off the shrink wrap and going from new to very good quality.

In particular I would never buy a movie on eBay that doesn't include a digital copy because the digital copies basically the easiest check to see if they are giving away bootlegs. When it feels like more than 50% of the movies on eBay are bootlegs of course the going rate for movies is lower as you have dummies buying bootlegs and you have unlimited bootlegs flooding and lowering the used market price. Ebay simply hasnt done its job of maintaining any sort of quality control so I expect prices on ebay to be low because the consumers taking a risk buying off ebay.

If I buy a car then drive it off the lot and try to resell it then it would be very hard to get 50% of the value. It would be even harder if I was taking one part of the car to keep for myself like you are doing for physical media. By your logic nobody wants cars since used cars dont hold their value either!

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes all the ratings on Streaming Providers always puts iTunes at the bottom, and I think Amazon and Vudu are at the top. As for Physical Discs, their sales are just not what they use to be. I know you guys think that eBay is a small window, but even the 4K Discs are not selling. I remember a time when I would put something up, it would sell right away for close to my purchased price, not anymore. It looks like I might lose 50% or more. Nobody wants Discs!

Originally Posted by veritas

What ratings are you going by? The ones I have seen go back and forth between iTunes and Vudu in terms of which movie has better quality with amazon almost always coming in dead last among the 3.

Ebay has alot of its own problems that have nothing to do with physical media. More people are doing what you are doing with physical media then in the past, eBay has some serious bootleg problems, amazon also sells used movies shrinking demand on eBay even more, your selling an incomplete product that is also no longer new and ebay has shrinking revenue per user on average . None of these things relate to if sombody wants discs its simply the lost value of taking off the shrink wrap and going from new to very good quality.

In particular I would never buy a movie on eBay that doesn't include a digital copy because the digital copies basically the easiest check to see if they are giving away bootlegs. When it feels like more than 50% of the movies on eBay are bootlegs of course the going rate for movies is lower as you have dummies buying bootlegs and you have unlimited bootlegs flooding and lowering the used market price. Ebay simply hasnt done its job of maintaining any sort of quality control so I expect prices on ebay to be low because the consumers taking a risk buying off ebay.

The rating that deal with BitRate, iTunes is at the bottom of the list they don't even have UHD Streaming yet. I still think that Downloads and Streaming are different, Downloads are compressed while Streaming BitRate could equal Disc, especially with the UHD Providers.

I finally sold my 4K Movie, but I had to take a good loss. As for bootleg, I really don't see that, knowledgeable Buyers look for Top Sellers and 100% Write-ups. A bootleg Seller would stand out like a sore thumb, to a knowledgeable Buyer. I have been on eBay for many years, and like anything you learn from experience.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The rating that deal with BitRate, iTunes is at the bottom of the list they don't even have UHD Streaming yet. I still think that Downloads and Streaming are different, Downloads are compressed while Streaming BitRate could equal Disc, especially with the UHD Providers.

I finally sold my 4K Movie, but I had to take a good loss. As for bootleg, I really don't see that, knowledgeable Buyers look for Top Sellers and 100% Write-ups. A bootleg Seller would stand out like a sore thumb, to a knowledgeable Buyer. I have been on eBay for many years, and like anything you learn from experience.

I haven't seen any bit rate review comparisons but the frame by frame comparisons I have seen between blu rays itunes and vudu have itunes winning about as often as vudu wins in terms of being more true to the blu rays picture.

Bit rate itself isn't everything you know. A film can have a lower bit rate but a better picture by simply having better compression and encode. By simply having a file account for more reference frames both forward and backward as an encode is created you can either shrink file size or improve quality by 10 to 15%.

As far as people buying on eBay... I am just saying your experiences trying to resell a movie that has gone from new to very good quality and how much value its lost isn't a very good example of how the market is. By your logic books are dead, cars are dead, basically everything is dead as a format because they lose value when they are opened and not complete.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The rating that deal with BitRate, iTunes is at the bottom of the list they don't even have UHD Streaming yet. I still think that Downloads and Streaming are different, Downloads are compressed while Streaming BitRate could equal Disc, especially with the UHD Providers.

I finally sold my 4K Movie, but I had to take a good loss. As for bootleg, I really don't see that, knowledgeable Buyers look for Top Sellers and 100% Write-ups. A bootleg Seller would stand out like a sore thumb, to a knowledgeable Buyer. I have been on eBay for many years, and like anything you learn from experience.

Originally Posted by veritas

I haven't seen any bit rate review comparisons but the frame by frame comparisons I have seen between blu rays itunes and vudu have itunes winning about as often as vudu wins in terms of being more true to the blu rays picture.

Bit rate itself isn't everything you know. A film can have a lower bit rate but a better picture by simply having better compression and encode. By simply having a file account for more reference frames both forward and backward as an encode is created you can either shrink file size or improve quality by 10 to 15%.

As far as people buying on eBay... I am just saying your experiences trying to resell a movie that has gone from new to very good quality and how much value its lost isn't a very good example of how the market is. By your logic books are dead, cars are dead, basically everything is dead as a format because they lose value when they are opened and not complete.

The BitRates were last year here on this Tread, when they were doing comparisons of Digital HD. iTunes came in at the bottom, because of the low BitRates. Now with UHD Streaming the BitRates and Bandwidth requirements have climbed, and iTunes has fallen further behind. Also with UV you have Redundancy, and more choices in Streaming Providers. My main UV Provider is Vudu, but I was trying out Fandango last night and all I had to do was Register to Link my Movie Library over. You guys that mainly have iTunes limit yourselves tremendously.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Texan26

You have stated digital downloads are dead. You have stated UV is dead. I'm still able to buy both.

Vinyl is not a mainstream thing. It's just over sensationalized by those click bait bloggers you always mention.

Well, it's a new week so I'm posting again!

Ok, you are right. I am simply using the same terms that every other poster is using. If we all need to sound like click bait bloggers, so be it. I have made the point about the terms 'dead' and 'obsolete' before so at this point I'm wasting my time.

The point about UV and film downloads are that they are at a young stage of their life. The figures should be great at this stage. You can't possibly call 5.6% growth healthy when sales were in double figures for a couple of years.

One thing that is healthy is Netflix and Amazon subs. I also believe that Hulu will be available to the U.K before long. So in that sense, Digital streaming has a healthy future.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The BitRates were last year here on this Tread, when they were doing comparisons of Digital HD. iTunes came in at the bottom, because of the low BitRates. Now with UHD Streaming the BitRates and Bandwidth requirements have climbed, and iTunes has fallen further behind. Also with UV you have Redundancy, and more choices in Streaming Providers. My main UV Provider is Vudu, but I was trying out Fandango last night and all I had to do was Register to Link my Movie Library over. You guys that mainly have iTunes limit yourselves tremendously.

But........they just work!

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by veritas

I haven't seen any bit rate review comparisons but the frame by frame comparisons I have seen between blu rays itunes and vudu have itunes winning about as often as vudu wins in terms of being more true to the blu rays picture.

Bit rate itself isn't everything you know. A film can have a lower bit rate but a better picture by simply having better compression and encode. By simply having a file account for more reference frames both forward and backward as an encode is created you can either shrink file size or improve quality by 10 to 15%.

As far as people buying on eBay... I am just saying your experiences trying to resell a movie that has gone from new to very good quality and how much value its lost isn't a very good example of how the market is. By your logic books are dead, cars are dead, basically everything is dead as a format because they lose value when they are opened and not complete.

You don't get the full story with screenshot comparisons though. Films are moving frames. Low compression bit-rates can struggle with banding, camera movement, such as slow pans, excessive motion blur, pixelation within a complex scene and so on.

I agree about your second point.

[Steedeel]

I had a interesting discussion with a friend over the weekend which actually loops into a discussion this thread had a while back. His son and daughter in law have cancelled their broadband and are relying on 4g for their entertainment. One is using a mobile and the other a tablet with 4g. When I asked about tv, they said they just watch broadcast on it (BBC, ITV and C4). When I asked how they watched Netflix through their tv, he said they didn't. The son, who is tech minded, believes 5g will allow them to watch streamed content on their tv and may enquire about that in a few years. If not, they are not bothered and will just watch on their mobile devices. They don't have any kids yet, maybe that is integral to their way of thinking.

Now, these guys are in their early 20's. If this is the attitude of most people of that age, I think home cinema is in serious trouble.
This is the first time I have heard this from someone in my group of friends and I thought I would share.

Alchav will remember our discussion. 5G fixed may or may not give us hope but it seems there may be some truth to the reports that people are getting rid of their broadband(in larger numbers) in much the same way they are getting rid of their landlines and just using their mobile.

These are worrying times for film lovers. Will home cinema survive the 5G era?

[whipnet]

What's going to kill home video streaming, in the States at least, are data caps placed on us by the ISP's. 1 UHD movie can be 25-50gb.

If you watch a lot of movies, you'll be paying a tremendous price for it. I already choose SD for viewing non science fiction or older movies to save data.

*

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by whipnet

What's going to kill home video streaming, in the States at least, are data caps placed on us by the ISP's. 1 UHD movie can be 25-50gb.

If you watch a lot of movies, you'll be paying a tremendous price for it. I already choose SD for viewing non science fiction or older movies to save data.

*

Yes, that as well.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I had a interesting discussion with a friend over the weekend which actually loops into a discussion this thread had a while back. His son and daughter in law have cancelled their broadband and are relying on 4g for their entertainment. One is using a mobile and the other a tablet with 4g. When I asked about tv, they said they just watch broadcast on it (BBC, ITV and C4). When I asked how they watched Netflix through their tv, he said they didn't. The son, who is tech minded, believes 5g will allow them to watch streamed content on their tv and may enquire about that in a few years. If not, they are not bothered and will just watch on their mobile devices. They don't have any kids yet, maybe that is integral to their way of thinking.

Now, these guys are in their early 20's. If this is the attitude of most people of that age, I think home cinema is in serious trouble.
This is the first time I have heard this from someone in my group of friends and I thought I would share.

Alchav will remember our discussion. 5G fixed may or may not give us hope but it seems there may be some truth to the reports that people are getting rid of their broadband(in larger numbers) in much the same way they are getting rid of their landlines and just using their mobile.

These are worrying times for film lovers. Will home cinema survive the 5G era?

Very interesting observation, but I think it is the truth about Millennials they love their Mobile Devices and Wireless. People in general really don't understand Bandwidth, they don't even know how they connect. The Tech's that came to connect my Sony UHD TV were ready to use my Wireless Router, they were very surprised I had a Wired connection to use. So you are correct, unless people wake up to the truth Home Theater will be in serious trouble.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by whipnet

What's going to kill home video streaming, in the States at least, are data caps placed on us by the ISP's. 1 UHD movie can be 25-50gb.

If you watch a lot of movies, you'll be paying a tremendous price for it. I already choose SD for viewing non science fiction or older movies to save data.

*

Why not just watch HD? 720p is only around 2.5Mbps on Netflix.

[randian]

Originally Posted by whipnet

What's going to kill home video streaming, in the States at least, are data caps placed on us by the ISP's. 1 UHD movie can be 25-50gb.

What I'm seeing is companies like Comcast destroying the video quality of their QAM channels through overcompression in order to make bandwidth for the streaming customers.

[zodwriter]

Originally Posted by whipnet

What's going to kill home video streaming, in the States at least, are data caps placed on us by the ISP's. 1 UHD movie can be 25-50gb.

If you watch a lot of movies, you'll be paying a tremendous price for it. I already choose SD for viewing non science fiction or older movies to save data.

*

I agree with this to a certain extent. If ISP's want to keep customers data caps are taking things in the wrong direction. I've left Comcast due to their unfair fees when it comes to caps. I have since gone over to AT&T where prices are slightly more reasonable. To get the most out of streaming, gaming and home internet in general it's best if you can afford it to just pay the fee for the unlimited data plan. I'm currently paying $30 more per month.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by whipnet

What's going to kill home video streaming, in the States at least, are data caps placed on us by the ISP's. 1 UHD movie can be 25-50gb.

If you watch a lot of movies, you'll be paying a tremendous price for it. I already choose SD for viewing non science fiction or older movies to save data.

Originally Posted by zodwriter

I agree with this to a certain extent. If ISP's want to keep customers data caps are taking things in the wrong direction. I've left Comcast due to their unfair fees when it comes to caps. I have since gone over to AT&T where prices are slightly more reasonable. To get the most out of streaming, gaming and home internet in general it's best if you can afford it to just pay the fee for the unlimited data plan. I'm currently paying $30 more per month.

I have said that Copper is Obsolete, and the Caps go on when the Bandwidth is not there. AT&T has GigaPower Fiber, and hopefully that's what you have. The Infrastructure has to change to Fiber for the amount of Bandwidth that will be needed for Streaming Video and Cloud Services.