Processor Shootout Arcam AV9, Lexicon MC12, Proceed AVP2, Upgrade Company Onkyo SC885

[Halcro 1]

What about Halcro and Sim Audio... and Parasound (Sorry Ive been busy so I got on this thread late )

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by Halcro 1

What about Halcro and Sim Audio... and Parasound (Sorry Ive been busy so I got on this thread late )

Funny you should mention Halcro, as I happened to come across this review today. Its an interesting comparison between the Arcam AV9 and the Halcro SSP100, and seems consistent with my views on the AV9. I'd love to listen to a Halcro processor (or own one!), but the reason I bought the Arcam and Proceed was the enthusiastic reviews in the Zissou AVS thread that sort-of inspired this one.

http://www.avguide.com/comparative-r...el-controllers

In philosophy, features, and sonic priorities, the Arcam AV9 is all about analog, though its digital performance is respectable. If most of your music sources are analog—including CD and DVD players with analog outputs—the AV9 would make a formidable centerpiece for a combined hometheater/ music system. Contrarily, the Halcro SSP100 prioritizes digital sonics and features above all, and for appropriate sources the result is superb. Of course, none of the SSP100’s digital goodness would be audible if it didn’t also encompass a truly fine analog stage. Sadly, there seems to be no satisfactory way to directly access it. If there were, this controller’s analog source performance would presumably equal or better that of its digital inputs. And that would be quite something. As it stands, those with primarily digital sources, and the requisite cash, should place the SSP100 at the top of their music-minded controller list.

[welwynnick]

Time for an update.

Now I’ve got a pretty revealing review system set-up, I’ve been able to spend some good time comparing processors.

There are lots of glowing reviews of the AV9, and Zissou seemed to like it a lot as well. I played CDs from the 3800 turbo over analogue connection to the AV9 in stereo direct mode with no processing and the display turned off. I described this configuration before, and using the Finals made no difference – no need to use fancy language, it sounded great. Maybe a better power amp would show up some limitations, but they weren’t very apparent to me.

In comparison with the Onkyo turbo, I thought the AV9 was a bit restrained and was holding back slightly. The differences weren’t great, but I did prefer the Onkyo. I didn’t compare it to the Proceed in this state, but my impression was they were pretty similar, and both were a bit better than the lexicon MC12.

Using an spdif input was a different matter, though. The Arcam seemed to lose some resolution, space, dynamics and transparency, and add veiling and grain. Sound-staging was poorer than the analogue pass-though, and some of the depth was lost. The musical element was diminished, and the Arcam seemed to lose the involvement and excitement of the music. It wasn’t toe-tapping, and it simply wasn’t as enjoyable as analogue. I just wanted it to be all over.

Switching over to the Onkyo turbo on spdif, and it was like taking a sack off my head. Musical got the sparkle back, everything sounded transparent again, and it was so enjoyable that I ended up listening longer than I intended, as you do. I even enjoyed tracks that I don’t like. Putting the Proceed back in, and the quality was largely retained. I thought all three were pretty similar with analogue inputs, but the Onkyo and Proceed are better than the Arcam with digital audio. From memory, I think the Lexicon MC12 was better with spdif than the Arcam as well. I have good memories of enjoying CDs with the Lex, and I hope to be able to repeat the comparison shortly.

The differences between the Onkyo and Proceed with digital audio were subtle. Sometimes I thought the Proceed was a bit better with bass and a bit more rhythmic, then I thought it was the other way round. There was one over-riding impression with the Onkyo turbo though. Other processors can sound very transparent when the arrangement is simple, with just one or two instruments playing at a time – the instruments are clear and solid. However, the Onkyo maintains this clarity and focus when the things get busier and there’s a lot more going on. Each instrument retains its space and doesn’t get muddled up with the others (at least not quite as much). Where there are different layers, these are kept separate, and its easy to follow what’s going on, more of the time.

The Onkyo turbo seems to be rock solid in this respect, and good as the Proceed is, I think the Onkyo is a bit better. Maybe the difference would be clearer with a better power amp and speakers, and I have a few things in the pipeline in that respect. For now, what I hear from the Proceed is pretty much as good as it could be for me, and I’d be happy with it for music and movies. Other things being equal, I slightly prefer the Onkyo, but it did cost more, and it’s a big ugly box that gets hot. Of course the Onkyo does other things including 7.1 analogue input. There’s a +6 version of the AVP2 that fixes that particular issue, but these are highly prized, and I think their owners hold on to them tightly.

If I could just use the analogue inputs on the AV9, I’d be happy with that as well, and it has the advantage of HDMI video switching and the multi-channel pass-though. However, I think processors should do a good job with coax and optical inputs as well, and I think the AV9 falls down a bit here. The Proceed and Onkyo are clearly better, and from memory I think the Lexicon is as well (even though the Arcam is probably better with analogue).

Regards, Nick

[naturephoto1]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the update. You have suggested that your upgraded Onkyo 885 gets hot. I have not found this to be the case with my upgraded Onkyo 885; it only gets warm. But, I do give it a fair amount of breathing room in the rack. As I recall, my Proceed AVP ran much hotter than my upgraded Onkyo 885.

As I have the amps in the racks, even my upgraded Aragon Palladium 1K monoblock amps only run warm and others have suggested that they get hot (they have adequate breathing space in the racks). My only component that gets hot is my upgraded Krell KAV-250a/3 power amp, but many Krell amps are known for getting hot.

Rich

[Halcro 1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

Funny you should mention Halcro, as I happened to come across this review today. Its an interesting comparison between the Arcam AV9 and the Halcro SSP100, and seems consistent with my views on the AV9. I'd love to listen to a Halcro processor (or own one!), but the reason I bought the Arcam and Proceed was the enthusiastic reviews in the Zissou AVS thread that sort-of inspired this one.

http://www.avguide.com/comparative-r...el-controllers

Interesting review ... I run my Meridian G08 through the XLR Analog bypass...The SSP-200 passes 24FPS and fixed the black crush Issues

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Thanks for the update. You have suggested that your upgraded Onkyo 885 gets hot. I have not found this to be the case with my upgraded Onkyo 885; it only gets warm. But, I do give it a fair amount of breathing room in the rack. As I recall, my Proceed AVP ran much hotter than my upgraded Onkyo 885.

I have the Onkyo above the Arcam P7 power amp, so the latter may be heating the former. I will try to run the Onkyo with the Arcam switched off and see if that makes a difference. I'm thinking of getting a cooler-running power amp. You may be able to help me there, I'll drop you a PM.

regards, Nick

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I have the Onkyo above the Arcam P7 power amp, so the latter may be heating the former. I will try to run the Onkyo with the Arcam switched off and see if that makes a difference. I'm thinking of getting a cooler-running power amp. You may be able to help me there, I'll drop you a PM.

regards, Nick

Hi Nick,

I just checked my upgraded Onkyo 885. Maybe it is a hotter than I thought in the areas of the vents and the surrounding toward the rear of the top of the unit. The heat does keep building up with time; so I guess you are correct in that portion of the unit it is hot. Overall however, the the rest of the unit only gets warm (that is what I was originally suggesting).

The unit is plugged into one of my upgraded Exact Power EP15A Power units. When it is turned on, it is drawing between about 75 to about 95 watts RMS. But, it is substantially cooler than an equivalent light bulb of 75 to 95 watts for the heat generated.

Rich

[richteer]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

I have the Onkyo above the Arcam P7 power amp, so the latter may be heating the former. I will try to run the Onkyo with the Arcam switched off and see if that makes a difference. I'm thinking of getting a cooler-running power amp. You may be able to help me there, I'll drop you a PM.

regards, Nick

Interesting comments. I will add that running warm or hot isn't necessarily a problem or sign of poor design. For example, many big Class A amps (e.g., Krell) are notorious for running warm/hot. Provided its within their design spec, it's OK, although granted it may mean ensuring adequte ventilation.

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by richteer

Interesting comments. I will add that running warm or hot isn't necessarily a problem or sign of poor design. For example, many big Class A amps (e.g., Krell) are notorious for running warm/hot. Provided its within their design spec, it's OK, although granted it may mean ensuring adequte ventilation.

The current Onkyo receivers have a reputation for running hot, but the processor should be much better. I just got home and switched the Onkyo on only, so I'll see whats thats like later this evening.

Whatever, the interesting thing for me at the moment is what the comparison has just shown. The 885/886 is known for its performance with:

• HDMI
• multi-channel audio
• audio decoding
• video processing
• auto equalisation
• digital audio
• BD / HBR
• bitstream
• movies

while its weaknesses are with:

• analogue audio
• stereo
• spdif & toslink
• LPCM
• CD /DVD
• music

Did you notice that I've completely ignored the Onkyo's strengths, and focussed entirely on all the areas where it performs relatively poorly? Not only that, I've compared it with those competitors that have the best reputations for excellence in those areas. And the Onkyo has come out on top!

I think the Onkyo can be expected to perform even better with BDs, but its still pretty clear that its gone from the bottom to the top of the class. Thats a hell of an achievement from a mass-market machine thats full of video and convenience features, and believe me, it really is convenient as well.

I wouldn't have anything else now.

Nick

EDIT: Everything has warmed up now, and the Onkyo is only warm near the video processor on the top. The bottom is cool, where it was too hot to hold before. That was just the power amp then.

[thezaks]

Hi Nick & Rich,

I was wondering about how much time you have on your Onkyo Turbos? The reason I ask is because I just received my Pioneer BDP-05FD Turbo yesterday and plugged it in last night. Dave put 24 hours on it and now I'm putting time on it. It needs to exceed my Arcam DV27A dvd player, and it is not there yet, although I do know it needs some time.

Thanks, Dave

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by thezaks

Hi Nick & Rich,

I was wondering about how much time you have on your Onkyo Turbos? The reason I ask is because I just received my Pioneer BDP-05FD Turbo yesterday and plugged it in last night. Dave put 24 hours on it and now I'm putting time on it. It needs to exceed my Arcam DV27A dvd player, and it is not there yet, although I do know it needs some time.

Thanks, Dave

Hi Dave,

I am not sure if you are saying that it is not equaling your Arcam DV27A DVD player at this point or it has not reached a high enough level of performance yet?

Regardless, the parts that Dave puts into his machines can take ultimately many hundreds of hours to reach their full potential. From the observations made by owners of upgraded equipment 500 to 600 (possibly 1000 hours ) or more hours of burn in are not that uncommon. I know that I was hearing improvements for my upgraded Denon 5910 and upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC up to 500 to 600 hours, and they may still be improving. You should probably start to notice improvement after perhaps 70 - 100 or more hours. You can sneak in a listen periodically in the mean time. Also, be aware, and it is not uncommon that with burn in things can be a little erratic in the audio changes. They can get better then worse, and some areas of performance will take more time than others to reach their potential.

Also, remember to use very high quality ICs and power cord for the unit (s) to perform at their best. The ICs and power cords will benefit from burn in as well (even though many here on the forum do not believe that power cords or burn in of cabling and power cords have any affect, many of us have found that they do).

Rich

[thezaks]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Hi Dave,

I am not sure if you are saying that it is not equaling your Arcam DV27A DVD player at this point or it has not reached a high enough level of performance yet?

Regardless, the parts that Dave puts into his machines can take ultimately many hundreds of hours to reach their full potential. From the observations made by owners of upgraded equipment 500 to 600 (possibly 1000 hours ) or more hours of burn in are not that uncommon. I know that I was hearing improvements for my upgraded Denon 5910 and upgraded Lavry DA10 DAC up to 500 to 600 hours, and they may still be improving. You should probably start to notice improvement after perhaps 70 - 100 or more hours. You can sneak in a listen periodically in the mean time. Also, be aware, and it is not uncommon that with burn in things can be a little erratic in the audio changes. They can get better then worse, and some areas of performance will take more time than others to reach their potential.

Also, remember to use very high quality ICs and power cord for the unit (s) to perform at their best. The ICs and power cords will benefit from burn in as well (even though many here on the forum do not believe that power cords or burn in of cabling and power cords have any affect, many of us have found that they do).

Rich

Rich,

I definitely agree with everything you are saying, which is why I'm definitely planning on some break in time. I also agree with you about burn in on ICs and power cords. There's always folks who don't believe in break in or burn in, and for those items that are definitely better after break in, I always make this challenge: compare a brand new out of the box component or cable with another one that has been fully broken in. Compare them side by side or back to back. The naysayers never seem to take up or have the opportunity to do this challenge, so they never get convinced. Of course, economy issues and dealers disappearing and/or not getting in as much equipment does make it more difficult to do these types of comparisons. For me, I don't know the science, I just know what my ears tell me. After all, I'm in it for the listening and not the science.

I've experienced the progression of break in, which, like you say, can sometimes get worse during the process. That's probably the only issue I can foresee with the 7 day return policy, because at 7 days there's only about 168 hours on the equipment. At that point, it won't be at its best, and some folks may not like what they are hearing and may not realize how good it will get. I myself am very thankful I'm dealing with someone who offers this kind of claim/warranty, but I can see where someone might return something simply because it did not have enough break in and didn't fulfill their expectations. Assuming 24X7 break in, 21 days equals just over 500 hours of break in, and 30 days gets over 700 hours of break in. On the other hand, if the return policy was extended to 30 days for example, someone might make a case for 45 days or 60 days... It can definitely get out of control.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll definitely sneak a listen in ever so often so that I can observe the progress.

Dave

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by thezaks

Rich,

I definitely agree with everything you are saying, which is why I'm definitely planning on some break in time. I also agree with you about burn in on ICs and power cords. There's always folks who don't believe in break in or burn in, and for those items that are definitely better after break in, I always make this challenge: compare a brand new out of the box component or cable with another one that has been fully broken in. Compare them side by side or back to back. The naysayers never seem to take up or have the opportunity to do this challenge, so they never get convinced. Of course, economy issues and dealers disappearing and/or not getting in as much equipment does make it more difficult to do these types of comparisons. For me, I don't know the science, I just know what my ears tell me. After all, I'm in it for the listening and not the science.

I've experienced the progression of break in, which, like you say, can sometimes get worse during the process. That's probably the only issue I can foresee with the 7 day return policy, because at 7 days there's only about 168 hours on the equipment. At that point, it won't be at its best, and some folks may not like what they are hearing and may not realize how good it will get. I myself am very thankful I'm dealing with someone who offers this kind of claim/warranty, but I can see where someone might return something simply because it did not have enough break in and didn't fulfill their expectations. Assuming 24X7 break in, 21 days equals just over 500 hours of break in, and 30 days gets over 700 hours of break in. On the other hand, if the return policy was extended to 30 days for example, someone might make a case for 45 days or 60 days... It can definitely get out of control.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll definitely sneak a listen in ever so often so that I can observe the progress.

Dave

Dave,

My suggestion is to speak with Dave Schulte directly if there is any concern and particularly as you approach the 7 day return period. But, my guess is that you will definitely hear a reasonable amount of improvement before then. Whether it will sound better than your present Arcam DVD player within the 7 days, that I can not say.

Rich

[thezaks]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Dave,

My suggestion is to speak with Dave Schulte directly if there is any concern and particularly as you approach the 7 day return period. But, my guess is that you will definitely hear a reasonable amount of improvement before then. Whether it will sound better than your present Arcam DVD player within the 7 days, that I can not say.

Rich

Rich,

I'm guessing I will notice a difference by then as well. And, I wouldn't hesitate giving Dave a call, because he has been so great and reasonable to work with. You and Nick have also provided some great info on your experiences, which I very much appreciate.

Dave

[thezaks]

All,

I wanted to apologize for diving into my experiences with my Pioneer 05 Turbo, as this is a Processor forum. My intention is to participate in this forum to find out about processors. However, while I've been here, I've also shared my excitement about my Pioneer 05 Turbo.

I'll stick to the subject from now on, but I will provide one final snippet of my first few days with the 05 Turbo. It is definitely progressing and is definitely a very special machine now. The Pioneer wasn't bad (before the upgrade), it was just not as good as my Arcam DV27A. I felt I downgraded a bit, just so I could have Blu Ray. Well, the Pioneer is definitely no longer the same - it is much improved. I can't wait to get a bunch more time on it to see where it ends up. I have not compared with the Arcam since the first night I put it in, but it has definitely gotten better with break in. The weekends are when I get more time to listen, so I'm looking forward to tonight and tomorrow night.

Thanks, Dave

[welwynnick]

I didn't even dare to listen to what my upgraded 3800BD and SC885 sounded like without a reasonable amount of burn-in first. I unboxed them and stuck them on continuous BD playback without hooking anything up.

Then, when they came out, compressed TV audio sounded like CD, CD sounded like SACD, and DVD sounded like Blu-ray. I think thats a representative summary.

I've no idea what Blu-ray sounds like, yet, but I think that will be something to look forwards to!

Nick

[naturephoto1]

Dave and Nick,

I am glad that the 2 of you are pleased with the performance of your equipment that Dave has upgraded.

Personally, as a happy owner of Dave's work, I am very pleased that the 2 of you are experiencing what I have been trying to report here at Blu-ray.com, AVS, and other Forums. I have met with a lot of resistance from different forum members that have indicated that my observations are just not possible, members have questioned that I have much exaggerated equipment performance, members have questioned my honesty and indicated that I have lied, I have been accused of being a shill, I have been accused that I get paid for my recommendations, or I have been accused of working for Dave Schulte and the Upgrade Company.

Rich

[welwynnick]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

I have met with a lot of resistance from different forum members that have indicated that my observations are just not possible, members have questioned that I have much exaggerated equipment performance, members have questioned my honesty and indicated that I have lied, I have been accused of being a shill, I have been accused that I get paid for my recommendations, or I have been accused of working for Dave Schulte and the Upgrade Company.

It'll be my turn now!

Nick

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

It'll be my turn now!

Nick

Hopefully, you and Dave will have other friends and acquaintances that will be confirming your experiences and observations in additional listening sessions as you have alluded to having in the future. The fact that I am reporting from eastern Pennsylvania, Dave is reporting from Arizona, and Nick is reporting from the UK indicate the far reaches of the sale and usage of the upgraded equipment. Hopefully the listening experiences and postings of the additional unbiased listeners over such far reaching distances will put these questions to rest.

Rich

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by naturephoto1

Hopefully, you and Dave will have other friends and acquaintances that will be confirming your experiences and observations in additional listening sessions as you have alluded to having in the future. The fact that I am reporting from eastern Pennsylvania, Dave is reporting from Arizona, and Nick is reporting from the UK indicate the far reaches of the sale and usage of the upgraded equipment. Hopefully the listening experiences and postings of the additional unbiased listeners over such far reaching distances will put these questions to rest.

Rich

I hope it does as well, although I have zero experience with any of Dave's upgrades. Real people with real opinions matter more to me, and I suspect most readers, than claims made by a modder, manufacturer, ditributor et al.

Glad to read that you are no longer the Lone Ranger in this regard!

John