Blu-ray playback reliability

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by John72953

You go girl!

John

Just callin it like I see it friend It's not helpful at all to blame the OP for having a problem that has occurred through no fault of his own. I just don't think it's good for the blu-ray.com community to have members do that to a newcomer who has come here for help and advice.

[atomik kinder]

Some people tend to forget that DVD did have its problems when first released. There were discs that certain players simply would not play and there was no such thing as a firmware update. Those $50 DVD players came a few years after the initial launch of DVD when all the bugs were finally worked out. You are going to have to think of BD players as computers and that you are going to have to do firmware upgrades to get everything to work.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Just callin it like I see it friend It's not helpful at all to blame the OP for having a problem that has occurred through no fault of his own. I just don't think it's good for the blu-ray.com community to have members do that to a newcomer who has come here for help and advice.

Again....I agree with you completely!

John

PS~ I think the OP posted a very interesting and worthy thread, and it's obvious to me that he knows a thing or two about the entire Blu-ray experience. Good for him!

[progers13]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

The cause of this situation isn't really relevant to the effect, although I highly doubt that the format war can be fully blamed for a lack of settled standards at this point in the game.

It is what it is regardles of how it got here. There are many people out there who might enjoy this tech, but just don't have the tools recquired fully enjoy it. My parents have an HDTV and would probably love the picture quality blu-ray offers.... but I will NOT buy them one until the standards are settled, because they do not have the skill set to handle anything beyond "insert disc & press play." They are definately not alone in the technologically challenged boat, so blu-ray adoption rates will continue to suffer until they get it together and cement a standard that allows all movies to play in all players, which will make blu-ray usable by average consumers.

I don't disagree that there are "technologically challenged" individuals out there. Similarly, these same individuals likely couldn't set their VCR to record 20 years ago. My question was / is, why should the rest of us be made to suffer (ie. be held back from limitless potential) because a few screwballs lack the desire / ability / know-how to do a little research before they buy something they know nothing about?

Remember just about 15 years ago when the internet became the big thing and everyone "had to have a computer." There were some who wanted a device that they could push a button and suddenly be whisked off to the web page / chat room of their choice. But there were others of us who realized that the technology presented more potential than one little aspect of one particular consumer's desire. How would we have been held back if these little boxes we type on did nothing other than load a web page?

All I've been trying to say is there are devices out there that allow these consumers to just "insert disc & press play" - these consumers are choosing not to buy them in lieu of a cheaper solution. And they get what they pay for. How can you continue to argue the problem is the format when my PS3 (and many others' PS3s) play every single disc without an issue?

[Ashaman074]

Well it is interesting to discuss anyway

IMO the brand shouldn't matter. Again, if I go to Wal-mart and pick up an Apex DVD, it will play DVDs - simple as that. This has always been the case, regardless of media. It has the ability to decode audio and video compressed in a specific format on a media as specified by a standard (otherwise what exactly IS the point?). It may lack features, but the digital information will be decoded in exactly the same manner as a top of the line player.

But seriously, since player support has been mentioned - what is the expectation? Are manufacturers with "good" support going to issue updates continually for every model they make until another format comes along? Does anyone know? Because it seems like a ridiculous and unsustainable position in terms of support and development. If this is the case, buyers are basically being asked to make an investment into a new format with absolutely no guarantee of return as it all could be rendered useless the very next day. I would contend that I should be able to pick up the cheapest player possible, and until the thing breaks, expect to play the media it was designed for.

progers13 - it IS the format unless I am missing something here. You do not even address the issues I have pointed out. Firstly, a PS3 is a gaming system; so you can't act as though it is a high-end home entertainment solution shaming lesser companies. I am glad yours is reliable, but you know what? When I search with google I find many of the problems I see are coming from PS3 owners. If you like to trash a company like Memorex (and I am not saying it is wrong) that is fine, but it doesn't explain my $1800 Dell XPS 1530 that just so happens to have some of the exact same problems as the Memorex. Your parallel to DVD players with features that came after the standard was adopted has little relation to a comlete failure to play. As for a format war, I can't even begin to see what that has to do with these problems. Wasn't it fought and won years ago? Maybe I should get out some old coat hangers...

Honestly, looking at my tech-related experiences over the years, it MOST reminds me of the headaches surrounding the incorporation of SecuROM for PC software - and I can't help but wonder if that comparison is a lot more accurate than we know.

I would like to think it is just a few random teething pains so to speak, but it isn't like this format was just rolled out

Again, thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.

[Ashaman074]

Originally Posted by progers13

I don't disagree that there are "technologically challenged" individuals out there. Similarly, these same individuals likely couldn't set their VCR to record 20 years ago. My question was / is, why should the rest of us be made to suffer (ie. be held back from limitless potential) because a few screwballs lack the desire / ability / know-how to do a little research before they buy something they know nothing about?

Remember just about 15 years ago when the internet became the big thing and everyone "had to have a computer." There were some who wanted a device that they could push a button and suddenly be whisked off to the web page / chat room of their choice. But there were others of us who realized that the technology presented more potential than one little aspect of one particular consumer's desire. How would we have been held back if these little boxes we type on did nothing other than load a web page?

All I've been trying to say is there are devices out there that allow these consumers to just "insert disc & press play" - these consumers are choosing not to buy them in lieu of a cheaper solution. And they get what they pay for. How can you continue to argue the problem is the format when my PS3 (and many others' PS3s) play every single disc without an issue?

Thanks professor wizzard - so back to my issue? Since I was building computers before anyone even knew what the internet was maybe I would understand if you could shed any light on the issue from a TECHNICAL standpoint? That was part of the reason I chose to post in the first place (I am curious).

[progers13]

Originally Posted by Ashaman074

Well it is interesting to discuss anyway

IMO the brand shouldn't matter. Again, if I go to Wal-mart and pick up an Apex DVD, it will play DVDs - simple as that. This has always been the case, regardless of media. It has the ability to decode audio and video compressed in a specific format on a media as specified by a standard (otherwise what exactly IS the point?). It may lack features, but the digital information will be decoded in exactly the same manner as a top of the line player.

But seriously, since player support has been mentioned - what is the expectation? Are manufacturers with "good" support going to issue updates continually for every model they make until another format comes along? Does anyone know? Because it seems like a ridiculous and unsustainable position in terms of support and development. If this is the case, buyers are basically being asked to make an investment into a new format with absolutely no guarantee of return as it all could be rendered useless the very next day. I would contend that I should be able to pick up the cheapest player possible, and until the thing breaks, expect to play the media it was designed for.

progers13 - it IS the format unless I am missing something here. You do not even address the issues I have pointed out. Firstly, a PS3 is a gaming system; so you can't act as though it is a high-end home entertainment solution shaming lesser companies. I am glad yours is reliable, but you know what? When I search with google I find many of the problems I see are coming from PS3 owners. If you like to trash a company like Memorex (and I am not saying it is wrong) that is fine, but it doesn't explain my $1800 Dell XPS 1530 that just so happens to have some of the exact same problems as the Memorex. Your parallel to DVD players with features that came after the standard was adopted has little relation to a comlete failure to play. As for a format war, I can't even begin to see what that has to do with these problems. Wasn't it fought and won years ago? Maybe I should get out some old coat hangers...

Honestly, looking at my tech-related experiences over the years, it MOST reminds me of the headaches surrounding the incorporation of SecuROM for PC software - and I can't help but wonder if that comparison is a lot more accurate than we know.

I would like to think it is just a few random teething pains so to speak, but it isn't like this format was just rolled out

Again, thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.

Without getting too much into the particulars of what your Dell can do and what it can't, perhaps it also doesn't have the updates it requires. Your original post led off with only 2 out of 6 titles worked on your player. Your natural conclusion is that the problem is the format. My conclusion (through researching the Memorex's history through other threads on this very site) is that the hardware manufacturer has let you down - not a problem with the format. There's nothing wrong with a having a debate, and the PS3 is not without its own issues, I agree. However, in terms of playing discs and Sony supporting its product through frequent firmware updates, I have had a 100% satisfaction level. Gaming system or not, it does the very thing you're blaming on the format - and that is, it PLAYS.

[Jeff Kleist]

When it comes to A/V equipment, you very much get what you pay for.

The Blu-ray standard has been set in stone since before the first player launched, the problem is, when you get a complex piece of equipment (DVD players are not complex at all technologically), whose standards and specs have been implemented by many different people in many different ways. This is why Windows is often blamed as being terrible while Mac "just works". When your potential hardware variables arer that incredibly low. Windows on the other hand has to work with literally billions of possible hardware combinations. To test discs with every possible player, even now is impossible financially and temporally. There isn't enough money, time or people. Many times there will be updates issued by player manufacturers when soemthing has been found in testing to be potentially problematic. Back in the days of DVD, a firmware update required you to ship it off or take it to a regional repair center where they had the tools to pull and flash the BIOS, and even in 1999 there were discs that had problems.

The real problem with Memorex, Insignia, Vizio, and all the other off-brands is that they're basicallly all the same, and at the mercy of whomever is building the player for them. So the motto is "you get what you pay for" and "when you see a piece of electronics for something so dramatically less than the competition, assume there's a catch".

Firmware updates used to be about every other month. My Panasonic BD10A hasn't had one in over a year, and still plays everything that comes out. Firmware updates for my BD80 have mostly just added features that weren't ready before. I don't track other players, but it's down to about twice a year now for the most part. DVD didn't have consistantly reliable players till about 5 years in, I'd expect it to be at least the same here.

The difference is that your parents/technophobes of the world can now call an 800 number and get a disc mailed to them that they put in and hit "play" on (or that you can burn and bring over) and it solves the problem. Instead of a massive production that 80/20 would never be addressed, and if it was, required 2 weeks without your deck

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by progers13

All I've been trying to say is there are devices out there that allow these consumers to just "insert disc & press play" - these consumers are choosing not to buy them in lieu of a cheaper solution. And they get what they pay for. How can you continue to argue the problem is the format when my PS3 (and many others' PS3s) play every single disc without an issue?

Would your PS3 be able to do so without firmware updates? Which again leaves us in a place where this tech is not so simple for those who do not have broadband internet AND network access (either wired or wi-fi) in their home entertainment center.

[peterng]

to say BD players is 100% reliability ... sh*t ... is too far away from true ...

I'll be happy if any BD players just play the main feature (movie only) of any BD disc without any firm-ware upgrade ... and if you want all the benefits of those extra features, you can up-grade firmware until the end of earth ... that's fine with me...

The point is: if you buy a standard DVD player, it will play the f***ng movies, regarless what brand ... or make ... For BD, anytime a new BD movie is released, somewhere ... somehow it fill f*** * up some players and the waiting game is in effect until the new firm-ware is released... WTF is that ?
I had the PS3 player and it's not a trouble free machine either ... not all comsumers will buy the gaming machine as their main BD player and buying a PS3 does not solve all the problems that BD having right now ...period ...

To say : you have from 200- 500 BD movies, and your player absolutely have no problem at all to play any of them (without firmware up-grade) ... you're full of sh*t ...

[Ashaman074]

"The Blu-ray standard has been set in stone since before the first player launched, the problem is, when you get a complex piece of equipment (DVD players are not complex at all technologically), whose standards and specs have been implemented by many different people in many different ways. This is why Windows is often blamed as being terrible while Mac "just works". When your potential hardware variables arer that incredibly low. Windows on the other hand has to work with literally billions of possible hardware combinations. To test discs with every possible player, even now is impossible financially and temporally. There isn't enough money, time or people. Many times there will be updates issued by player manufacturers when soemthing has been found in testing to be potentially problematic. Back in the days of DVD, a firmware update required you to ship it off or take it to a regional repair center where they had the tools to pull and flash the BIOS, and even in 1999 there were discs that had problems."

I agree, it is very much what it is like. Unfortunately, this will not fly with consumer electronics/appliances, and it is at odds with recent trends (I would cite the existence of the Xbox as an example). The Mac example is a good one; and Mac has benefited from the "just works" approach regardless of the user's age.

People who live on the bleeding edge of computer gaming are familiar with this and it is necessary as well as understandable. I just fail to understand this in a home appliance, and I doubt it will experience the kind of market penetration prior formats have should it continue.

In the case of playback issues on a laptop however, anyone know right off if firmware updates are handled by the software (for example PowerDVD) or the physical drive itself?

[RedZeppelin]

Originally Posted by progers13

. . . My question was / is, why should the rest of us be made to suffer (ie. be held back from limitless potential) because a few screwballs lack the desire / ability / know-how to do a little research before they buy something they know nothing about? . . .

Just out of curiosity, how would you or anyone else be made to suffer if all Blu ray players just worked, just as DVD players do? I don't get that.

[progers13]

Originally Posted by RedZeppelin

Just out of curiosity, how would you or anyone else be made to suffer if all Blu ray players just worked, just as DVD players do? I don't get that.

What I was driving at is that firmware updates are intended to improve something. If you tie the hands of a developer and box them into a corner with no possibility of fixing it, then the overall product will suffer. No advancements can be made because there is no means for pushing it forward. I may be in the minority, but I would rather continue to receive firmware updates and be assured of achieving the best home theater experience possible than to handcuff the great minds who deliver it to us. As an example, the PS3 couldn't decode DTS HD-MA right off the bat. That was later added through a firmware update. What if developers had said "Oh well, we have no way off adding this great new codec to existing players, therefore we will not use it." Or worse, the standard, "Guess you gotta buy a new one now to get this feature." I applaud the use of firmware to continually deliver a great experience to us all. The point I was trying to make all along is that some manufacturers stop supporting their products (insert P&L illustration here). We as consumers need not support these manufacturers lest we get what we pay for.

[Uniquely]

[QUOTE=progers13;2330317] As an example, the PS3 couldn't decode DTS HD-MA right off the bat. That was later added through a firmware update. What if developers had said "Oh well, we have no way off adding this great new codec to existing players, therefore we will not use it." Or worse, the standard, "Guess you gotta buy a new one now to get this feature." I applaud the use of firmware to continually deliver a great experience to us all. [QUOTE]

There is nothing wrong with a firmware update to improve the features of a player.... like the one that recently added Netflix streaming to my BD60. But once again... that is a completely different animal than RECQUIRING a firmware update JUST to play the newest release movies. THOSE standards should have been set in stone a LONG time ago.

[onemorechance]

Originally Posted by peterng

to say BD players is 100% reliability ... sh*t ... is too far away from true ...

I'll be happy if any BD players just play the main feature (movie only) of any BD disc without any firm-ware upgrade ... and if you want all the benefits of those extra features, you can up-grade firmware until the end of earth ... that's fine with me...

The point is: if you buy a standard DVD player, it will play the f***ng movies, regarless what brand ... or make ... For BD, anytime a new BD movie is released, somewhere ... somehow it fill f*** * up some players and the waiting game is in effect until the new firm-ware is released... WTF is that ?
I had the PS3 player and it's not a trouble free machine either ... not all comsumers will buy the gaming machine as their main BD player and buying a PS3 does not solve all the problems that BD having right now ...period ...

To say : you have from 200- 500 BD movies, and your player absolutely have no problem at all to play any of them (without firmware up-grade) ... you're full of sh*t ...

buddyy..i got 70 blus no problemm..only 1 firmware update for quantum of solace.