Why not DSD (SACD) audio instead of PCM?

[Deciazulado]

You can also listen to the SACDs in stereo (both the multichannel mixes and the stereo mixes) from the stereo analog outs of the PS3.

[ra1024]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

The PS3 decimates the 1-bit 2.82Mhz sampling rate of DSD to 24-bit 44.1kHz PCM progression, depending on the receiver's PCM capability. That means it starts with 44.1kHz to 88.2kHz to 176.4kHz, which is why finding a receiver that can handle 192kHz would be ideal.

Write, Deci, Thanks for the info. Couple of questions.

1) After reading up on Wikipedia, I understand it that DSD is roughly equivalent to 192kHz PCM. Are you saying the PS3 is capable of producing 192kHz PCM down to 44.1kHz depending on what the receiver can accept?
2) I read that SACD players weren't allowed to output unencrypted DSD. Is the PS3 allowed to send PCM over HDMI? I would have thought this would give the ability to make perfect digital copies.

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

You can also listen to the SACDs in stereo (both the multichannel mixes and the stereo mixes) from the stereo analog outs of the PS3.

This may explain question 2 above. Is this the only way to get SACD output from the PS3? I was hoping for HDMI to the receiver.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by ra1024

1) After reading up on Wikipedia, I understand it that DSD is roughly equivalent to 192kHz PCM. Are you saying the PS3 is capable of producing 192kHz PCM down to 44.1kHz depending on what the receiver can accept?

Via a HDMI connection, the PS3 detects what sampling rate your receiver can handle and adjust accordingly. This would be under Audio -> HDMI - Auto. It is preferable that you run in Auto first so that you can see what your receiver sampling rate is. If you exceed your receiver sampling rate, you'll get distortion in the speakers and that's not what you want to hear.

I don't think I've heard 192kHz audio before. But SACD smokes DVD-A, in my opinion. It's like vinyl but without the hiss, the expensive tube amplifiers and you can skip tracks using the remote!

2) I read that SACD players weren't allowed to output unencrypted DSD. Is the PS3 allowed to send PCM over HDMI? I would have thought this would give the ability to make perfect digital copies.

All SACD players have a copy protection system. One of them is the watermark exclusive to that title, without which the disc won't work. What you read is right, I believe, and only works when you're streaming DSD via Firewire or HDMI to an appropriate receiver.

The PS3 decimates (you could say decode) DSD into PCM and outputs that as stereo via the analog out or 5.1 via HDMI. ALL SACD players that have analog outputs converts DSD to PCM to feed the analog jacks. However, the quality of the audio is the issue here.

You won't get the same quality going from DSD-to-PCM(digital)-to-analog out (analog sine waves)-to-PCM digital (at whatever bitrate). The loss happens in the analog outs and the sampling rate of the PCM at the end. Most people with SACDs use analog outs and experience the loss but it is still miles better than Redbook CD.

Recording using this method also means that you have a system that can play back stereo and multichannel PCM. That's a lot of data.

This may explain question 2 above. Is this the only way to get SACD output from the PS3? I was hoping for HDMI to the receiver.

As I explained above, you can use HDMI to receiver. Only via HDMI do you get multichannel.


fuad

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

I don't know if the Onkyo can handle 192kHz but hopefully it would.

Onkyo TX-SR605 Owners Manual pg.34 (.pdf)

Supported Audio Formats -
• 2-channel linear PCM (32–192 kHz, 16/20/24 bit)
• Multichannel linear PCM (7.1 ch, 32–192 kHz)
• Bitstream (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, DTS-HD
Master Audio)
Your DVD player must also support HDMI output of the above audio formats.


States the Onkyo 605 can handle 192kHz in 7.1pcm ....should be good for SACD's

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

You won't get the same quality going from DSD-to-PCM(digital)-to-analog out (analog sine waves)-to-PCM digital (at whatever bitrate). The loss happens in the analog outs and the sampling rate of the PCM at the end. Most people with SACDs use analog outs and experience the loss but it is still miles better than Redbook CD.

What you wrote there is confusing. What do you mean, people with SACDs use analog outs and experience the loss. What loss? On those SACD players that do DSD to analog outs, it's 2.8 Mhz DSD -> analog -> speakers. No loss.


Woudn't on the PS3 be 2.8 Mhz DSD -> 176.4kHz PCM -> analog -> speakers

or 2.8 Mhz DSD -> 176.4kHz PCM -> HDMI receiver -> analog -> speakers

Or am I missing something from your explanation?

[crackinhedz]

"Audio from Super Audio CD's cannot be output from the systems digital out (optical) connector. Multichannel content from Super Audio CS's can only be output from the HDMI OUT connector." (pg.22)

I was reading something, and not knowing much about SACD's and DSD, I came upon this in the PS3 manual:

DSD Disc - Play DSD-format music files saved on compatible disc media, such as a DVD-R.


....whats the difference between a SACD in DSD format, and a DSD Disc? is a DSD disc refering to home made audio (no copy protection) on a dvd+/-r burnable disc??

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by Deciazulado

What you wrote there is confusing. What do you mean, people with SACDs use analog outs and experience the loss. What loss? On those SACD players that do DSD to analog outs, it's 2.8 Mhz DSD -> analog -> speakers. No loss.


Woudn't on the PS3 be 2.8 Mhz DSD -> 176.4kHz PCM -> analog -> speakers

or 2.8 Mhz DSD -> 176.4kHz PCM -> HDMI receiver -> analog -> speakers

Or am I missing something from your explanation?

Getting criticism from Deci is hard to take.

Once it gets to analog out (from a typical SACD player or the stereo output of the PS3) that audio signal will then have to be processed and amplified into the receiver. I believe modern receivers re-sample analog audio signals to digital (PCM) prior to amplification. I could be wrong.


fuad

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

I was reading something, and not knowing much about SACD's and DSD, I came upon this in the PS3 manual:

DSD Disc - Play DSD-format music files saved on compatible disc media, such as a DVD-R.


....whats the difference between a SACD in DSD format, and a DSD Disc? is a DSD disc refering to home made audio (no copy protection) on a dvd+/-r burnable disc??

DSD in SACD is stored compressed. IE the data read off the SACD is DST which is then uncompressed to DSD.


fuad

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

Once it gets to analog out (from a typical SACD player or the stereo output of the PS3) that audio signal will then have to be processed and amplified into the receiver. I believe modern receivers re-sample analog audio signals to digital (PCM) prior to amplification. I could be wrong.

no SACD audiophile worth its salt would do that , they'd use the direct out all analog setting.

Some receivers/pre-amps have that.

Some extragoldenears plug the SACD player directly to their amps!

[ra1024]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

As I explained above, you can use HDMI to receiver. Only via HDMI do you get multichannel.


fuad

Thanks for SACD 101 Is PCM over HDMI protected with HDCP? I was trying to understand why they wouldn't allow it over optical but would allow it over HDMI.

[dobyblue]

The Onkyo receivers will state whether or not they have DSD processing and/or direct mode.

Direct Mode will not convert to PCM inside the receiver. The Onkyo 805 and up have both DSD processing and DSD direct mode.

However for the PS3 you only need one with 24/192 which will allow for acceptance of the maximum DSD decimation from the PS3, which is 24/176.4

Originally Posted by ra1024

Thanks for SACD 101 Is PCM over HDMI protected with HDCP? I was trying to understand why they wouldn't allow it over optical but would allow it over HDMI.

Bandwidth!

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

I don't think I've heard 192kHz audio before.

I have a few stereo tracks on DVD-A with 24/192, like a number of the REM discs. There's no discernable difference between this and 24/96; they're both awesome. As a format though my preference, like you, is with SACD.

Originally Posted by ra1024

I've been considering trying out some SACDs now since I understand the PS3 can play them and I've already made that investment. Will any HDMI receiver like the Onkyo 605 play them like they're intended or do you have to get an HDMI receiver that can decode the DSD bitstream?

As already answered the 605 would be an excellent receiver for you and you'll of course want the PS3 SACD set to PCM out through HDMI.

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

How was this set?? I have never heard a SACD before, and have been looking to buy one because I have heard its a great improvement over standard cd's...and the GENESIS set really caught my eye...was it worth the money?

It's actually 5 albums, but I thought it worth the money just for Duke alone. The Wuthering and Tale are good in my opinion, but Abacab and Duke really shine for fidelity.

The next set, 1983-1998, comes out in September. So far the cheapest place I've found for pre-order is US$159 - http://store.acousticsounds.com/brow...Title_ID=40194

That's substabtially cheaper than it is on Amazon ($232)

Once you start listening to SACD it is hard to go back to anything that's not of that level of fidelity.