DTS master 7.1 vs Dolby surround

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by bsmooth

Sorry for all the questions, its just a bit frustrating to upgrade to Blu-Ray from DVD and then seem to go backwards as far as the actual sound.
Right now I'm running the Player in bitstream, but I can still stay in bitstream If I go to rca cables can't I ? I thought the coax would be better than RCA, but I never even thought it wouldn't be able to move all the signal.
I've been at this for almost a week now, trying different settings and reading both my Receiver manual and the Blu-ray player, but the DTS really threw me, as well as BD sound which I still don't understand even after reading the manual.
Also my receiver can decode dolby, but not sure about DTS 7.1 or switching the Bluray from bitstream to PCM. But more wires arghhhh ! just what I need.
Sounds like a fun filled weekend wires and Hurricanes yeeha, who needs surround sound when you can have a Hurricane !

Coax isn't the way to go for Blu-Ray if you have a receiver and a Blu-Ray Player like yours. It is really easy to set up your Blu-Ray Player to your receiver using the RCA Audio Cables. Yeah sometimes it can be confusing but it is really easy to set up.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Scorxpion

Digital out should be choose as PCM and not bitstream as elaborate in this page 29

When using analog, the bitstream/PCM setting doesn't matter. Panasonic players decode the track being played, regardless of that setting. But, you need to set Secondary Audio to Off. When Secondary Audio is On, the player will use the lossy DD 5.1 and DTS tracks instead of the lossless ones.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by smeesmay

You can only move full lossless audio (dolby true hd, DTS-MA) is by HDMI. so if your receiver will not accept HDMI you'll never get the full effect. 6 channel (6 rca's) is the closest you can hope for. Still great, but not top tier

Incorrect. Lossless tracks always have to decoded and converted to analog in order to produce sound. HDMI allows the player to send the digital audio to a receiver for processing while using multichannel analog means the player does all of that work. But, it's the same work either way. The only problem with player processing is that most players do not do any room correction and have less sophisticated bass management. But, depending on your equipment and your room, analog from a player can be just as good as HDMI to a receiver, maybe even better.

[BIslander]

bsmooth - Please give us your player audio settings. Also, what does your receiver say about the format and number of channels of the arriving audio when you play both Dolby and DTS tracks on your player.

[bsmooth]

Its Bruce btw, I'll have those settings tonight. one thing weird I did notice while playing Dances with Wolves was while I had the movie menu on the music sounded great and my receiver was telling me I had Dolby Digital, but as soon as the movie started the dolby digital went away, and it went either to DTS or Pro logic, and there went the good sound.
I know right now its set to bitstream, but have to check the other settings.
I thought I had a good grasp of audio and all its settings ,but this is definately a learning experience.
I want to say thanks very much to all who have answered so far, I think I'm starting to understand it better, but please don't stop now

[bigrob]

you often find start up trailers or menus are encoded with Dolby Digital 5.1, then the main feature will default to the lossless audio (unless it's a early Warner Bros title)

[prerich]

Originally Posted by bsmooth

Its Bruce btw, I'll have those settings tonight. one thing weird I did notice while playing Dances with Wolves was while I had the movie menu on the music sounded great and my receiver was telling me I had Dolby Digital, but as soon as the movie started the dolby digital went away, and it went either to DTS or Pro logic, and there went the good sound.
I know right now its set to bitstream, but have to check the other settings.
I thought I had a good grasp of audio and all its settings ,but this is definately a learning experience.
I want to say thanks very much to all who have answered so far, I think I'm starting to understand it better, but please don't stop now

Check your manual Bruce, if you don't have it here's a link http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPER...MPBD85-MUL.PDF

If you want to hear lossless on a older receiver, you have to do it through the 5.1/7.1 Multi-analog outs of your BD player and connect them to the multi-in on the Yamaha. Do not set your BD player to bitstream, set it to PCM - since your receiver can't perform the decoding. Set your Audio Output on your BD player to 7.1ch and set the HDMI Audio to off.

You should now be able to hear DTS HD Master audio. Your Receiver will more than likely read 7.1 or 5.1 (straight ect.) and your PCM light will light on your receiver. Remember to selelct the multi-channel button on the Yamaha receiver remote so you will hear the multi-channel from the Yamaha.

I hope this helps you out. If not, check out "Crackinheadz" sticky in the receiver section on how to receiver lossless audio with an older receiver.

[bsmooth]

But my receiver does do the decoding, at least it always has before, is it different decoding than I had with regular DVD's?
I do have the manual and get great dolby digital with it set to bitstream on regular DVD's and some Bluray discs ,just not all.
I've been scouring my manuals for both receiver and bluray player for a week now, just seems to get me more confused.
I guess by lossless you mean I don't lose the dolby or DTS decoding ?
My main issue is the change from regular DVD decoding which worked fine before with my old DVD player and now changed to a Bluray player and it doesn't work the same, at least with DTS.

[BIslander]

Hi - Bruce seems to have a different problem than the usual lossy vs lossless. He says lossy DD 5.1 sounds good while lossy DTS does not. That's unusual. Bruce seems to be asking how he can make the DTS output from his BD player sound as good as it does from a DVD player.

Originally Posted by prerich

If you want to hear lossless on a older receiver, you have to do it through the 5.1/7.1 Multi-analog outs of your BD player and connect them to the multi-in on the Yamaha. Do not set your BD player to bitstream, set it to PCM - since your receiver can't perform the decoding. Set your Audio Output on your BD player to 7.1ch and set the HDMI Audio to off.

With Panasonic players, the bitstream/PCM setting does not affect player decoding. The player will decode the track being played regardless of that setting. However, Secondary Audio must be set to Off to get lossless decoding. Do not set the player to 7.1 when the system is 5.1. If you do, the player will send audio to the non-existant rear channels. The HDMI Audio setting may or may not matter. It depends on the handshake with the TV. But, if you are getting an unexpected stereo output, setting HDMI Audio to Off may be the fix.

You should now be able to hear DTS HD Master audio. Your Receiver will more than likely read 7.1 or 5.1 (straight ect.) and your PCM light will light on your receiver. Remember to selelct the multi-channel button on the Yamaha receiver remote so you will hear the multi-channel from the Yamaha.

The player output is analog, not digital. So, the PCM indicator will not light up.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by bsmooth

...one thing weird I did notice while playing Dances with Wolves was while I had the movie menu on the music sounded great and my receiver was telling me I had Dolby Digital, but as soon as the movie started the dolby digital went away, and it went either to DTS or Pro logic, and there went the good sound.

Previews and splash screens are usually DD 5.1 or PCM, even when the movie itself is DTS. There's a big difference between seeing DTS or ProLogic on your receiver. ProLogic cannot be applied to a 5.1 source. So, if you see that on your display, it means your player is sending stereo rather than a DTS bitstream. And that would certainly account for the issue you are having.

Originally Posted by bsmooth

But my receiver does do the decoding, at least it always has before, is it different decoding than I had with regular DVD's?

No. When using coax and the player is set to bitstream, it should work just like a DVD player. TrueHD is oputput as DD 5.1 and dts-MA is output as DTS.

I guess by lossless you mean I don't lose the dolby or DTS decoding ?

Lossless is sort of like HD audio. It means you get an exact copy of the studio master soundtrack. There's more audio data in lossless TrueHD and dts-MA than in their lossy cousins DD 5.1 and DTS. But, coax and optical connections do not support lossless audio. Lossless requires HDMI or multichannel analog. No, you do not lose DD 5.1 and DTS decoding. With a coax connection, the player knows to send DD 5.1 and DTS instead of the lossless tracks.

[bsmooth]

So If I do my rca connections between player and receiver while still leaving my coaxial connection intact, that should take care of any issues i have, sort of a fix all, is that correct?
Or maybe I'm just not as impressed with DTS as I am with Dolby digital. I am using the Dances with Wolves as my sort of reference right now for Dolby Digital and 7.1 DTS master audio. But even with the audio option on the Dances with Wolves blu-ray set to Dolby digital, I get no indication of Dolby digital on my receiver, just Prologic and a stereo indication of only 2 speakers.
What really baffles me is the fact I'm using the same exact coaxial connection I was using before with my older Samsung DVD player. Everything is the same except the change from regular DVD player to Blu-ray player.
I will post my Blu-ray player settings when I get home tonight, as soon as I get everything battened down for the Hurricane.
I suppose non of this will really matter If a tree falls on my house !

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by bsmooth

So If I do my rca connections between player and receiver while still leaving my coaxial connection intact, that should take care of any issues i have, sort of a fix all, is that correct?

I have a BD55 hooked up with both analog and coax. I use analog for lossless audio on Blu-rays and coax for CDs and DVDs. If you want to use both types of connections, you need to calibrate each one separately and that can be difficult to do with some Yamaha receivers.

Or maybe I'm just not as impressed with DTS as I am with Dolby digital. I am using the Dances with Wolves as my sort of reference right now for Dolby Digital and 7.1 DTS master audio. But even with the audio option on the Dances with Wolves blu-ray set to Dolby digital, I get no indication of Dolby digital on my receiver, just Prologic and a stereo indication of only 2 speakers.

The Dolby track on that disc is only 2.0! Dolby Digital does not have to be 5.1. As for dts-MA, are you saying that you end up with ProLogic when playing that track, too? What happens if you play a DVD with a DTS track on your BD85?

What really baffles me is the fact I'm using the same exact coaxial connection I was using before with my older Samsung DVD player. Everything is the same except the change from regular DVD player to Blu-ray player.
I will post my Blu-ray player settings when I get home tonight, as soon as I get everything battened down for the Hurricane.

You may be using the same cable and input on your receiver. But, the key here is how the Blu-ray player is set-up to output audio.

I suppose non of this will really matter If a tree falls on my house !

Good luck this weekend!

[bobbydrugar]

I was just looking over some of the previous posts and noticed I think in the second post to OP said that early on when he connected the system and ran dances with wolves that the receiver lit up with DTS and all 5 speakers were luminiated. Looking back I think that the real problem is that the OP is comparing a massive bombastic Dolby TrueHD (AKA how to train your dragon) Mix with a lighter articulate DTS-MA (Dances with wolves) track. to be honest thats like compairing Iron Man (awsome) and Red Shoes (also great but hey its a mono simple clean soundtrack). I would recomend trying another DTS track like rent serenety or Iron Man Two and see if that is the problem

Thanks,
T

[bsmooth]

Man I must say I'm learning a lot here, but that last post by Bobbydrugar has me thinking. I'm sorry to say I only have: Dances with Wolves, Highlander, and How to Train your Dragon on Blu-ray.
But Dances gets great reviews here on Blu-ray.com, and i was really expecting quite a bit. I mean when hundreds of Buffalo rumble by I would pretty much feel the earth, or in this case my living room shake, and that didn't happen. Is that what DTS is supposed to be? A mild version of Dolby Digital? Or am I talking oranges and apples here?
Here are my settings on my Panasonic DMP-BD85:
Setup
Audio Settings
Dynamic range - Off
Digital Audio Output - Dolby B and DTS set to Bitstream
BD Secondary Audio - On
PCM Down Conversion - On
Downmix - Stereo (wasn't sure where this should be set as I think it pertains to only the display)
7.1 Channel Audio reformatting - Auto
High Clarity Sound - Disable
Audio Delay - 0ms
TV/Device Connection
HDMI video - On
HDMI resolution - Auto
24P Output - Off
HDMI Color Mode - YCbCr (4:4:4)
HDMI Audio Output - On
Viera link - On
Deep Color - Auto
Contents Flag - Auto

[BIslander]

First off, DD and DTS have nothing to do with how a movie sounds. They are data compression codecs used to save space on a disc. Think .jpg or zip file. The soundtrack is mastered as PCM, which takes up lots of space. It gets fed into an encoder, which does the compression. On playback, it gets run through a decoder, which does the decompression, turning it back into PCM. Compression and decompression do not alter the mix. If you take a soundtrack and encode it with both DD 5.1 and DTS, the two versions will sound pretty much the same.

So, the problem with Dances with Wolves may simply be that you dislike the mix itself. You should get some other, more recent releases and see how they sound.

Meanwhile, we still need to know what your receiver reports about the format of the audio it is receiving from the player when you play a Blu-ray with a dts-MA track. When you play the movie itself, are you getting DTS or stereo PCM?

Your settings look fine, except perhaps for HDMI Audio. Sometimes the audio connection with a TV will tell the player to ignore the bitstream setting and force a stereo PCM output, which is all the TV can handle. If you are getting stereo when playing DTS on the Panasonic, try turning HDMI Audio to Off.

[Scorxpion]

Originally Posted by bsmooth

Man I must say I'm learning a lot here, but that last post by Bobbydrugar has me thinking. I'm sorry to say I only have: Dances with Wolves, Highlander, and How to Train your Dragon on Blu-ray.
But Dances gets great reviews here on Blu-ray.com, and i was really expecting quite a bit. I mean when hundreds of Buffalo rumble by I would pretty much feel the earth, or in this case my living room shake, and that didn't happen. Is that what DTS is supposed to be? A mild version of Dolby Digital? Or am I talking oranges and apples here?
Here are my settings on my Panasonic DMP-BD85:
Setup
Audio Settings
Dynamic range - Off
Digital Audio Output - PCM
BD Secondary Audio - OFF
PCM Down Conversion - On
Downmix - Stereo (wasn't sure where this should be set as I think it pertains to only the display)
7.1 Channel Audio reformatting - Auto
High Clarity Sound - Disable
Audio Delay - 0ms
TV/Device Connection
HDMI video - On
HDMI resolution - Auto
24P Output - ON if your LED TV is capable of 24 playback
HDMI Color Mode - YCbCr (4:4:4)
HDMI Audio Output - OFF
Viera link - On
Deep Color - Auto
Contents Flag - Auto

Mine is connected through HDMI internally decoding so setting them here for you apply it.Make sure you are ordering your receiver to accept 5.1 channel audio through its inputs Kindly rent Transformers revenge of the fall try it and you will blown away,Again your receiver should display PCM and showing illuminated 5.1 satellite small speakers,if not back to us telling what kind of receiver you have

[BIslander]

Per the first post, he has an older Yamaha RX-V757. No HDMI, using coax.

So, the Digital Outputs need to be set to Bitstream, not PCM.
Secondary Audio should not matter one way or another.
HDMI Audio may need to be set to Off if he is getting a PCM stereo output instead of DTS even though the player is set to bitstream.

[bobbydrugar]

due to bandwidth limitations if the op sets the digital output to PCM (dont do this) he will be limited to 2ch stereo output because the player will be decoding the dolby or dts back to larger pcm and neither coax (digital RCA) nor fiber-optic can transport more then two channels of pcm so bitstream is the proper setting for his setup. if he sets it this way his receiver should report either dolby digital or dts on the receiver display then that means the audio is properly getting to the receiver for decoding in the receiver.

As to the review for dances review vs what you are hearing it is important to remember that the reviewer is listening to the lossless DTS-MA mix on the disk not the lossy encoded track for DTS. They could be very different sounding depending on what the lossy encoder decided to remove or compress in the mix vs the lossless DTS-MA mix. Like most on the site I would recomend that the OP pick up either an analog six or 8 channel cable or grab a couple (3 to be exact) RCA stereo cables and connect the Blu-ray player to the Receiver with the 7.1 ch analog outs to analog inputs then you will get the full lossless track from the player to the receiver for a much better sound experience.

Thanks,
T

[bsmooth]

As for those cables, would you recommend any specific cables. I think, but I'm not sure I got my HDMI cables through Blue jean cables. Would you get them from them or anyone else?
Also I need a left and right RCA cables for Fronts, Surrounds, Center, and Subwoofer. So sets of two for fronts and surrounds, but only singles for Center and Sub?
Other thing is should the Sub have thicker wire for the increased load going into the sub?
I'm definately going to try the RCA cables.
Also need to have MORE Blu-Ray titles some of which to buy are:
Saving Private Ryan
The Protector(with Tony Jaa)
Patton
Grand prix
Polar Express
Pirates-Curse of the Black Pearl
Reign of Fire
Last of the Mohicans
Blade Runner
Wall-E
The Shining
Just a few I want to start with, going by the great reviews here. The Site itself makes having the Blu-ray player worth it.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by bobbydrugar

As to the review for dances review vs what you are hearing it is important to remember that the reviewer is listening to the lossless DTS-MA mix on the disk not the lossy encoded track for DTS. They could be very different sounding depending on what the lossy encoder decided to remove or compress in the mix vs the lossless DTS-MA mix.

I disagree. The lossy DTS core is output at 1509 kbps, twice the bitrate used on most DVDs, and it sounds great, rivalling lossless. But, the OP should definitely try other BDs with dts-MA tracks.