Writing a book

[wonkavision]

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

Ideas? This is why you carry a notebook or tablet with you everywhere. I can't sleep sometimes because I just get ideas and have to sit up and start typing away on my ipad.

I use my phone and dictate verbally my idea before it goes away from any distraction, which includes typing. Fast and easy, then even better to flush out later or more than likely kill it due to being super lame.

[Sozo]

Questions for the fiction writers out there: when coming up with your ideas, do you focus on characters or plot first? Is the storyline mapped out from beginning to end or is it more free flowing?

I ask because I'm fascinated by the different creative processes there are..

[Abby is Q]

Originally Posted by Sozo

Questions for the fiction writers out there: when coming up with your ideas, do you focus on characters or plot first? Is the storyline mapped out from beginning to end or is it more free flowing?

I ask because I'm fascinated by the different creative processes there are..

Depends for me. Most of the time I only have a plot idea with no idea of characters when I start to flesh it out. But sometimes I only have an idea for a character with no idea what their story is even going to be. Usually, I have a rough idea of how something I'm going to write is going to end and I always try to outline the entire thing so it's easier for me to pace the story. Stories I write are usually fleshed out within outlines. But if writing something short, I may just free flow the whole thing and see what happens.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by Sozo

Questions for the fiction writers out there: when coming up with your ideas, do you focus on characters or plot first? Is the storyline mapped out from beginning to end or is it more free flowing?

I ask because I'm fascinated by the different creative processes there are..

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

Depends for me. Most of the time I only have a plot idea with no idea of characters when I start to flesh it out. But sometimes I only have an idea for a character with no idea what their story is even going to be. Usually, I have a rough idea of how something I'm going to write is going to end and I always try to outline the entire thing so it's easier for me to pace the story. Stories I write are usually fleshed out within outlines. But if writing something short, I may just free flow the whole thing and see what happens.

Yep, I think it's kinda the same with me, although I don't outline that much. I'll come up with a plot or premise first, and then figure out how the characters fit in. It's usually been on the fly (I'm usually a "pantser" rather than a plotter; I might have an idea of how the plot plays out in my head, but everything else is made up as I go). Sometimes though, I might develop the characters to coincide with the plot. These days though, I find myself putting more effort in creating character profiles and backstories and such, but having a plot idea (or at least a starting point) takes precedence for me personally.

[Abby is Q]

Figured I'd bump this and give an update on my own work.

I finished my book with a revised draft I'm fairly happy with to try and find an agent/editor. There is a bit of a problem though. The damn thing is nearly 450 pages long, and I had not been keeping word count since I started. I just checked tonight what the normal word count is for unpublished, first-time authors. 80,000-120,000 seems to be the normal range. I've eclipsed that with 180,000 words.

Now I'm worried that this will not be published in any fashion unless I make major edits and revisions. Which seems impossible since I've spent the last couple months just trying to condense it, only to reach this point. Maybe I'm too attached, and I need a professional set of eyes to read it to give me advice.

Anyway, I'm relieved to be past major revisions, but now I'm frightened that even more revisions are coming. This book has been surprisingly more difficult to write than I ever imagined.

[Lt. Brannigan]

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

Figured I'd bump this and give an update on my own work.

I finished my book with a revised draft I'm fairly happy with to try and find an agent/editor. There is a bit of a problem though. The damn thing is nearly 450 pages long, and I had not been keeping word count since I started. I just checked tonight what the normal word count is for unpublished, first-time authors. 80,000-120,000 seems to be the normal range. I've eclipsed that with 180,000 words.

Now I'm worried that this will not be published in any fashion unless I make major edits and revisions. Which seems impossible since I've spent the last couple months just trying to condense it, only to reach this point. Maybe I'm too attached, and I need a professional set of eyes to read it to give me advice.

Anyway, I'm relieved to be past major revisions, but now I'm frightened that even more revisions are coming. This book has been surprisingly more difficult to write than I ever imagined.

I am out of my depth here, but would it be possible to split the book into 2 volumes in order to make it more manageable?

[Abby is Q]

Originally Posted by Lt. Brannigan

I am out of my depth here, but would it be possible to split the book into 2 volumes in order to make it more manageable?

In this instance, no. It's a basic 5 act structure with exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution. The only option would be to strip out a lot of the detail and character backgrounds.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

Figured I'd bump this and give an update on my own work.

I finished my book with a revised draft I'm fairly happy with to try and find an agent/editor. There is a bit of a problem though. The damn thing is nearly 450 pages long, and I had not been keeping word count since I started. I just checked tonight what the normal word count is for unpublished, first-time authors. 80,000-120,000 seems to be the normal range. I've eclipsed that with 180,000 words.

Now I'm worried that this will not be published in any fashion unless I make major edits and revisions. Which seems impossible since I've spent the last couple months just trying to condense it, only to reach this point. Maybe I'm too attached, and I need a professional set of eyes to read it to give me advice.

Anyway, I'm relieved to be past major revisions, but now I'm frightened that even more revisions are coming. This book has been surprisingly more difficult to write than I ever imagined.

Congrats on all the hard work!

I have heard that editors are less likely to accept manuscripts over 130K or so, but if the story truly warrants such a high word count, I don't think it's warranted to sacrifice huge chunks of it just to appease editors. There are some that might be willing to give it a chance anyway, and I personally think that a writer shouldn't have to give up artistic license over industry standards or commercial trends.

If a professional publisher won't take it, it can always be independently-published. Going that route will take more work and responsibility, but you retain all control over the content. The choice is yours. In either case, getting second opinions (on content and publishing options) couldn't hurt, and as much of a pain as it is, there's always more editing somewhere down the line.

[Abby is Q]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Congrats on all the hard work!

I have heard that editors are less likely to accept manuscripts over 130K or so, but if the story truly warrants such a high word count, I don't think it's warranted to sacrifice huge chunks of it just to appease editors. There are some that might be willing to give it a chance anyway, and I personally think that a writer shouldn't have to give up artistic license over industry standards or commercial trends.

If a professional publisher won't take it, it can always be independently-published. Going that route will take more work and responsibility, but you retain all control over the content. The choice is yours. In either case, getting second opinions (on content and publishing options) couldn't hurt, and as much of a pain as it is, there's always more editing somewhere down the line.

that I am always prepared for. But major revisions where chapters are taken out and I have to write new material to fill in the gaps has become tiresome. I can't write another word of this.

I'm just hoping that someone takes a chance on me. I want to build a professional relationship and some sort of reputation for the future. I have lots of other work I want to do and be able to move forward on.

[Abby is Q]

Upon further review, I believe I can cut much of this down. A lot of detail will be lost, but it is mostly fluff anyway. Parts can be condensed or completely taken out. I'm not sure I can get it down to the 120,000 range, but I think I may be able to aim for 140,000. That would still be a lot better. Right now I've cut about 6,000 words, but there's still plenty to go.

[Abby is Q]

Another update since I'm astonished at my original naivete. I've cut 40,000 words from my book, about 100 pages worth of material... and I'm still revising. I don't expect anymore large chunks to be taken out, but I could probably get it between 125,000-135,000 words. I was very ignorant before to think this couldn't be done.

[Al_The_Strange]

Don't beat yourself up over it - we all have a long, frustrating learning experience.

Any ignorance you have would pale in comparison to my own. It seems like every critique session I've had leaves me looking back on everything I've written and think it's all garbage that'll never be publish-worthy. Biggest reason is that I keep hearing my characters don't grab people's interest enough, so they don't care about what happens. It would be nice for me to cut out excess words - with these issues, I've struggling to think about how to approach and fix them without having to redo the whole thing.

At any rate, keep on refining it and getting feedback - you'll have it nailed down eventually and it'll be great. Also, this experience will help on future projects.

On the other hand, I hope you're not throwing all those words away. If it's a runaway hit, you might want to have a little something extra, in case you want to release an unabridged or extended version of the novel (like King did with The Stand).

[Abby is Q]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Don't beat yourself up over it - we all have a long, frustrating learning experience.

Any ignorance you have would pale in comparison to my own. It seems like every critique session I've had leaves me looking back on everything I've written and think it's all garbage that'll never be publish-worthy. Biggest reason is that I keep hearing my characters don't grab people's interest enough, so they don't care about what happens. It would be nice for me to cut out excess words - with these issues, I've struggling to think about how to approach and fix them without having to redo the whole thing.

At any rate, keep on refining it and getting feedback - you'll have it nailed down eventually and it'll be great. Also, this experience will help on future projects.

On the other hand, I hope you're not throwing all those words away. If it's a runaway hit, you might want to have a little something extra, in case you want to release an unabridged or extended version of the novel (like King did with The Stand).

I don't think this will ever be a 1,500 page book anytime soon.

I'm not sure why you're characters aren't grabbing people, but my thought would be that there may not be enough detail. Perhaps going back and writing about your characters' pasts will help you. Go back to past events to detail why they react in certain ways. Even if they're the biggest a-hole characters, if you give them a past they'll have depth that'll connect with readers.

Since you mentioned The Stand, I'll use it as an example. Every single character in that book is fleshed out in great (probably too much) detail. You know about the time Mother Abigail was at the talent show. You know how Larry Underwood basically lost all his money. You learn about Nadine's experiences with a Ouija board. King goes into great detail about the freaking Trashcan Man.

These kinds of depths aren't necessary for every story, but I find that it helps to have more detail that I can cut out than less. Think about the things your characters like. What's their favorite food/song/movie/book? How do they dress? What kind of car do they drive? What do they do with their free time? Then give them a backstory as to why. Then when you have all that information, just keep what is the most interesting. It starts to effect the plot more and makes the characters more integral, as opposed to just being props in a story.

[Al_The_Strange]

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

I don't think this will ever be a 1,500 page book anytime soon.

I'm not sure why you're characters aren't grabbing people, but my thought would be that there may not be enough detail. Perhaps going back and writing about your characters' pasts will help you. Go back to past events to detail why they react in certain ways. Even if they're the biggest a-hole characters, if you give them a past they'll have depth that'll connect with readers.

Since you mentioned The Stand, I'll use it as an example. Every single character in that book is fleshed out in great (probably too much) detail. You know about the time Mother Abigail was at the talent show. You know how Larry Underwood basically lost all his money. You learn about Nadine's experiences with a Ouija board. King goes into great detail about the freaking Trashcan Man.

These kinds of depths aren't necessary for every story, but I find that it helps to have more detail that I can cut out than less. Think about the things your characters like. What's their favorite food/song/movie/book? How do they dress? What kind of car do they drive? What do they do with their free time? Then give them a backstory as to why. Then when you have all that information, just keep what is the most interesting. It starts to effect the plot more and makes the characters more integral, as opposed to just being props in a story.

Thanks for the insight.

It could be that my MC doesn't have a good enough backstory (villains do, not the main man though). I have a few glimpses into the past, but they don't occur until later. That's the problem I have though - I like to develop the characters gradually and unravel them as I go, but there needs to be something right away from page one onwards to make readers care.

I think you may be onto something with the other traits though - getting into the man's looks, likes, and hidden impulses right away might be a better hook for readers, for both the character and the story itself. When I can, I'll have to see what I can do to give the guy more depth.

[Abby is Q]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Thanks for the insight.

It could be that my MC doesn't have a good enough backstory (villains do, not the main man though). I have a few glimpses into the past, but they don't occur until later. That's the problem I have though - I like to develop the characters gradually and unravel them as I go, but there needs to be something right away from page one onwards to make readers care.

I think you may be onto something with the other traits though - getting into the man's looks, likes, and hidden impulses right away might be a better hook for readers, for both the character and the story itself. When I can, I'll have to see what I can do to give the guy more depth.

I'll give you an example of something that worked for me. One of my characters was a former model. At first it was just a throwaway occupation detail that had no purpose. So I (vaguely) explained that she became a model because she liked having her picture taken as a child. Then I went into detail about how her mother would take her picture because it kept her still. And because of those details, a photograph ended up being integral to the story. I went into details about her relationship with her mother that explained why the character acted the way she did and why she made certain [important plot] decisions. It reached a point where the occupation was still not important, but the details it led me to were. Everything I learned about my own character just by exploring something so small ended up becoming integral to the story.

[Spikes-of-Fury]

I've been trying to write novels since I was a kid. Have never finished one, and all of them were bad, but I get a little better every time. It's all part of the learning process. Lately, I've also been trying to learn and study more in order to improve my writing. If anyone thinks they might need help, I can recommend a couple of extremely useful books on writing:

Manuscript Makeover by Elizabeth Lyon - This book dives thoroughly into every single aspect of writing a novel: plot, character, dialogue, theme, style, imagery, viewpoint, conflict, pacing, editing/revision, language, sentence structure, grammatical rules, everything! It's so well-rounded that it should probably be mandatory reading for anyone who wants to write.

Getting into Character by Brandilyn Collins - This one is focused on character, of course, but it takes the approach of using a method actor's techniques and applying them to writing characters so that you can get a better handle on how their core values and motivations affect their behavior.

I don't mean for this to be a spam post, but maybe those books will help someone. I see this thread hasn't been updated in months - hope everyone is making progress!

[Abby is Q]

I've never had issues writing at length, and I think I do well with character and plot. My biggest issues with writing have always been language, as I'll go on marathons of writing and then go back and read what I wrote and it comes across so dry and mechanical.

I'm currently working on another novel. I pretty much have quit trying to sell the last one I wrote since I found a job I currently love. I'm actually hoping to move up the corporate ladder and write for pleasure. After I finish this current manuscript, I may go back and work on my previous title and just start putting stuff up online just for fun. I enjoy writing and just want readers. At this point, making money isn't something I feel I need to do and I've found a good balance between work, writing, reading, and movies.

Anyway, I wish this thread was more active. It's nice talking to others who write.

[Al_The_Strange]

Hope everybody's projects go well. Thanks for the book recommendations, I might see if one of our libraries have 'em.

After some feedback and reflection (which equates to a vicious cycle of self-loathing, rejection, then acceptance and newfound resolve), it seems to me that my problem stems from a mix of POV and voice issues. I've also been thinking and focusing more on hooks (especially character hooks, finding likable traits and making them apparent earlier in stories). Trying to nail down the whole "show don't tell" rule. I think I do have plenty of good story ideas, I just need to edit like hell and put more consideration into capturing and maintaining readers' attention (which, as I keep hearing, lies more in developing characters to relate to rather than action or plot, which I've probably overdone to the point of making things too cold and mechanical).

I still have book-writing in mind all the time and will try out drafting a new novel next month for Camp NaNoWriMo. But to help flesh out and toy around with craft, I might be focusing on more short stories for a while.

Looking back on life and learning curves, I think I spent too much time in my early years writing without learning. Now I feel like I'm learning without writing.

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

I pretty much have quit trying to sell the last one I wrote since I found a job I currently love.

Have you had many rejections up to this point? I know the querying process takes a long time to accomplish, finding the right agent/editor/publisher could take dozens or hundreds of submissions.

[Abby is Q]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Have you had many rejections up to this point? I know the querying process takes a long time to accomplish, finding the right agent/editor/publisher could take dozens or hundreds of submissions.

I had (I believe) four rejection emails, and another four never got back to me. I didn't really "give up," but after a brief stay in the hospital and then having to find more financially supportive work, querying took to the back burner. I know it takes many tries, but I also think the book may need more work anyway. So I'm hoping to work on this next piece, go back with fresh eyes, and then reevaluate everything.

I'm confident my stuff it publishable (I've read stuff that should have never made a printed page, but there it was), but I'm unsure if I care to have anything printed on paper at this point. I just want people to read what I have to write, and if I can potentially reach thousands of readers through online sites, why not give that a go? Though if I do choose to go that route, I may refrain for putting out some work in the case that I could one day get published. But like I said, I have a job that I love, so this is all for fun and not quite as stressful as before.

[Spikes-of-Fury]

Originally Posted by Abby is Q

I'm currently working on another novel. I pretty much have quit trying to sell the last one I wrote since I found a job I currently love. I'm actually hoping to move up the corporate ladder and write for pleasure. After I finish this current manuscript, I may go back and work on my previous title and just start putting stuff up online just for fun. I enjoy writing and just want readers. At this point, making money isn't something I feel I need to do and I've found a good balance between work, writing, reading, and movies.

Anyway, I wish this thread was more active. It's nice talking to others who write.

It's never a bad thing to have a finished manuscript lying around! If you happen to get something else published, it could make it easier to submit that first one. It sounds like you are currently having a nice peaceful life, though, so good for you!

Originally Posted by Al_The_Strange

Looking back on life and learning curves, I think I spent too much time in my early years writing without learning. Now I feel like I'm learning without writing.

That sounds like my experience as well... Writing in itself is a way to learn about writing, but the other half is learning from others, which I only started doing somewhat recently. It tends to have a crippling effect when you see how much you've been doing wrong, so my writing has slowed until I can figure out how to fix it. One of my biggest problems is trying to find as much conflict as possible in scenes where there isn't any. My main conflict in the story I'm working on probably happens too late, but I see no way to move it up or insert smaller conflicts beforehand... I'll try and figure something out.

P.S. There are likeable characters and there are characters who sometimes do likeable things. Both can work, as long as they're interesting!