How audio is stored on film

[Redneck9]

The 1990 Version! (sake of debate this movie was released prior to 1992)

However, there are more instances of the soundtrack being visible on the right side of a digital transfer(can't remember the discs right off hand) Regardless, the pulse would still appear as pink lines on the right anyway.

Now stop dodging my questions!!!

Explain Ghosting?

Explain the back line on the theater screen?

Tell us how to fix a rolling DTS print?

You can't explain anything!!! other than what a basic google search will show.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

The 1990 Version! (sake of debate this movie was released prior to 1992)

However, there are more instances of the soundtrack being visible on the right side of a digital transfer(can't remember the discs right off hand) Regardless, the pulse would still appear as pink lines on the right anyway.

Now stop dodging my questions!!!

Explain Ghosting?

Explain the back line on the theater screen?

Tell us how to fix a rolling DTS print?

You can't explain anything!!! other than what a basic google search will show.

Interesting as dts digital was released after ninja turtles.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

I think you made your point.

Continue the discussion privately or start a new thread discussing the physical nature of audio stored on film.

Point being, stay on topic or thread closes. Not trying to keep this pissing match going any further.

I don't have the privileges to open a new thread, or I would.

one last thing before I stop posting; no derr about DTS not being around in '92 for ninja turtles. There is a pink linear track(dolby stereo track) on right of the picture, If you can adjust the output scaling on your tv/monitor/projector see for yourself.

He hasn't been able to answer a single question regarding film, anyone that installed projectors nationally would know the answers.(then dodges the questions)

Their is a photo of a man holding a clockwork orange print(which shows the linear track on the Right side. When DTS emerged they placed that on the left side)

*Also run a large output scaling on the Mystery Men DVD and you will again find pink linear lines on the right side(the DVD came from a print source)

I know there is a Jim carry DVD/Blu-ray out there that shows DTS overscan on the left side(I forgot which one)

-note- when looking for overscan audio you must use flat or scope transfers because pan and scan cuts the sides off.
Please create an offshoot topic thread.

[crackinhedz]

keep it respectful. Only warning.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

There is a pink linear track(dolby stereo track) on right of the picture, If you can adjust the output scaling on your tv/monitor/projector see for yourself.

That is fine that you can see the soundtrack on the right side of your tv monitor, however, that is not the case inside a movie theatre using 35mm film, if one were to not use an aperture plate, you would see the soundtrack projected on the left side of the movie screen. DTS timecode included.

[Spicoli]

[Blu-Velvet]

Um... the soundtrack is on the right of the picture (analog only) on 16mm film prints. The soundtrack is on the left of the picture on 35mm prints. The DTS timecode is located in a narrow area between the analog soundtrack (which may well be Dolby SR encoded) and the picture. If you think you're seeing timecode on the right on some Blu-ray or DVD or VHS copy, it apparently is some sort of video timecode and has absolutely no relation to the film soundtrack printed on the physical film.

As far as that black bar that appears in the middle of the picture on the screen? Or sometimes near the top or the bottom? That's basically only there whenever some incompetent and/or lazy slob in the projection booth can't figure out how to splice the film on the actual frame line. There are a few rare exceptions when lazy filmlab personnel in a rush order to get 2000 prints out to theatres on short notice assemble footage in a hurry and the film comes to the theatre that way direct from the lab. Also, it's only a black bar if the film is hard-matted to 1.85 or 1.66. If it's a scope print or a full-frame flat print, it will be a thin line across the middle of the screen (or top or bottom) instead of a thick black bar.

Regarding "ghosting" of the picture? Do you mean you have a shutter that is out of phase with the intermittent? Or do you even know what those terms refer to?

[Redneck9]

As far as that black bar that appears in the middle of the picture on the scree That's basically only there whenever some incompetent and/or lazy slob in the projection booth can't figure out how to splice the film on the actual frame line. There are a few rare exceptions when lazy filmlab personnel in a rush order to get 2000 prints out to theatres on short notice assemble footage in a hurry and the film comes to the theatre that way direct from the lab. Also, it's only a black bar if the film is hard-matted to 1.85 or 1.66. If it's a scope print or a full-frame flat print, it will be a thin line across the middle of the screen (or top or bottom) instead of a thick black bar.

No, it means the timing is off! A projector lamp flashes 24 times per second. If the flash doesn't sync with the film then you will see a black bar in the middle of the screen.(sort of like your cars timing belt)

Regarding "ghosting" of the picture? Do you mean you have a shutter that is out of phase with the intermittent? Or do you even know what those terms refer to?

Ghosting is caused if the Lamp is burning to bright/hot, some of the image will appear brighter(which can damage the print or start a fire) so the projectionist needs to adjust the position of the Lamp so the brightness is equal across the screen.

[Redneck9]

Originally Posted by pagemaster

That is fine that you can see the soundtrack on the right side of your tv monitor, however, that is not the case inside a movie theatre using 35mm film, if one were to not use an aperture plate, you would see the soundtrack projected on the left side of the movie screen. DTS timecode included.

I still have a 35mm trailer somewhere, If I find it I'll scan it in sou you can see it(i think it may have been 4 tracks rather than 5 it's been a while "dolby sr05" or whatever) It was 5 channel discreet I remember separate surrounds!!! Possibly that format matrixed both the center and the sub? I was reading over dolbycinema processor pdf manuals last night and realized that. I do know we needed dual track prints as well and we constantly had to sometimes call if they delivered the wrong format.

The place I was at must have ordered unusual prints.

[ZoetMB]

I had to check the date on the first posting to see if this was some really old thread. Why are we discussing 35mm sound formats at this late date? Film prints are quickly disappearing. The major film studios are producing few 35mm prints now and probably won't be producing any after the end of 2013. For better or worse, we're now living in a digital projection world.

And Mr. Redneck: I'm an ex-recording engineer who worked in cinema sound and those who criticized you are correct: you have little idea of what you're talking about. You seem to know just enough to be dangerous. If you want to know about digital sound formats, I suggest you do research in the now-defunct Recording Engineer/Producer and DB magazines as well as the still-existing Mix magazine and look for articles on film sound, especially those written by Larry Blake.

The image that someone posted of the Quad format is exactly right except that the Sony SDDS track also appears on the other side of the frame. The Sony SDDS format varied from the Dolby and DTS formats in that it had an option for 8 channels: 5 screen channels, stereo surround and a subwoofer track, although not that many films were released in that format.

And when Quad format isn't used, the non-used formats simply aren't there - everything else remains in the same place. There is only one DTS format and it's always been nothing more than a time code on the film synching to an external CD. Dolby Digital has always been between the sprocket holes. Sony SDDS has always been outside the sprocket holes. Both Dolby and DTS had an option (Dolby-EX, DTS-ES) for a derived center rear.

But again, unless one has a library of old film prints, it's all becoming pretty moot at this point as digital projection dominates.

Some historic movie sound firsts in the Dolby era:
Logan's Run (6/1976): 1st 70mm Dolby Discrete
A Star Is Born (12/1976): 1st Dolby Optical
Star Wars (5/1977): 1st 70mm Dolby "Baby Boom"
Superman (12/1978): experimental 70mm split surround on a few prints
Apocalypse Now (8/1979): 1st 70mm Dolby split surround
Against All Odds (1984): probably the last 35mm 4-track mag
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (11/1986): 1st 35mm Dolby SR

Dick Tracy (6/1990): 1st 70mm digital using the Kodak CDS system
Days of Thunder (6/1990): 1st 35mm digital using the Kodak CDS system
Batman Returns (6/1992): 1st Dolby Digital 35mm
Jurassic Park (6/1993): 1st DTS Digital 35mm
Last Action Hero (6/1993): 1st Sony SDDS 35mm (8 channel)

Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace (5/1999): 1st Dolby Digital EX
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (12/2001): probably 1st DTS-ES
Toy Story 3 (6/2010): 1st Dolby Surround 7.1
Brave (6/2012): 1st Dolby Atmos


And for the record, when projecting film, ghosting is not caused by an over-bright lamp -- it's caused by an out of sync shutter.

[Spicoli]

I have never seen a thread start off disputing a post from another thread.

[pagemaster]

Originally Posted by Redneck9

No, it means the timing is off! A projector lamp flashes 24 times per second. If the flash doesn't sync with the film then you will see a black bar in the middle of the screen.(sort of like your cars timing belt)
.

No, it means that someone did not cut and splice the frames correctly. It is nothing like a cars timing belt. The way to correct it is to re-splice the frame correctly or you can use the framing knob to adjust the framing, but you will still have to fix the mis-frame at some point. This issue is also caused by not re-setting your intermittent after a show that has just been played. And finally, it can also be caused by simply not framing correctly when threading the film inside the film gate.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

A projector lamp flashes

The projector lamp does not flash EVER, the lamp is constantly on. The shutter is what blocks the light from being projected...as seen on screen, the industry term is called "flicker"....

Originally Posted by Redneck9

Ghosting is caused if the Lamp is burning to bright/hot, some of the image will appear brighter(which can damage the print or start a fire) so the projectionist needs to adjust the position of the Lamp so the brightness is equal across the screen.

Ghosting is caused by the incorrectly timed/synced or worn shutter. However, ghosting can be mimicked from a very unclean lense or port glass. To correct ghosting, there is a small knob that helps adjust the shutter....other wise a replacement part is needed.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

(which can damage the print or start a fire).

Modern day 35mm film prints do not catch fire.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

(i think it may have been 4 tracks rather than 5 it's been a while "dolby sr05" or whatever) It was 5 channel discreet I remember separate surrounds!!!

Dolby SR is not discreet nor is it 5 channels.

Originally Posted by Redneck9

The place I was at must have ordered unusual prints.

Why would they make an unusual print for you? It would not be possible.