Blu-ray Closing the Gap with HD DVD?

[JTK]

Originally Posted by nyg

Yeah I fell into the blame MPEG2 trap but it now appears increasingly likely that it wasn't the codec but rather the encoding that was poorly done. A few around here have been saying that all along. Oops...

Key word: Implementation.
^^
That almost should be a sig for me by now.

That and "garbage in, garbage out."

[zombie]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Now I hope they just own up and re-release HoFD, Robocop, T5E and potentially more discs.

I hope so as well even though I've always hated the idea of Superbits. Studios should have learned to release their movies in great quality the first time around. If they want to go back and re-release something they should add extras then. Both versions should have terrific quality for the movie though.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by JTK

Key word: Implementation.
^^
That almost should be a sig for me by now.

That and "garbage in, garbage out."

Yes perhaps it should. You were definitely one of the people I was referring to in my post.

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by nyg

That said, why should a studio have to support a format which they believe isn't in their best interests? For example, Fox chose Blu-ray because of their added copyright protection. Who is the EU to tell Fox that it's unacceptable for them to be BD exclusive?

Exactly what I was thinking. If they were to do this, you have a government sanctioned / socialistic economy, and not good ol fair (not all the time, however, hehehe) capitalism.

Anyhow, lets hope the good transfers continue.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

That's precisely what they're attempting to establish. Microsoft was fined in 2004 for anti-competitive behaviour. If similar acts are being done but the studios then they too risk being fined. The core of the issue is "are you competing fairly?".

Microsoft was fined because it was a declared monopoly, AND it was using anti competitive behavior to enforce/expand that monopoly. IF Microsoft had only a 25% market share of computer operating systems then they would not be subject to the rules requiring them to create a level playing field for their competitors.

Neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray have anywhere near 5% market share for optical disks or media being sold. Thus it should be painfully obvious that the Microsoft situation has absolutely no bearing on any conspiracy someone might try to concoct about HD DVD or Blu-ray.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Funny you should mention Apple. They are under fire in multiple countries for operating a "closed" system in iTunes. Europe isn't America and they don't have entertainment industry to protect. I don't always agree with the EC motives but they are certainly trying to keep things open and somewhat fair. Things the DOJ used to do for Americans before they basically sold out.

The Apple issue in France and Scandanavia, as with HD DVD and Blu-ray, is radically different than the Microsoft case. No country has declared Apple's iTunes a monopoly in music distribution -- in any form: online or other. No country has declared Apple's iPods a monopoly in music players -- in any form: HDD based or RAM based. The rules are very different. The French law was gutted by the legislature and basically boils down to Apple getting permission from the music industry to have the music in its proprietary DRM. They already have that de facto agreement. They just have to get that explicitly stated according to French law.

By analogy to this, who would HD DVD and Blu-ray go to in order to get their consent? The studios. Hmmm... Seems like the studios have already given their consent by chosing on which media they want to ship.

In the Scandinavian situation Apple is negotiating with the governments involved over what are and are not the real issues. This situation is a LONG way from being really started let alone being decided -- possibly years away. The final decision on what will be done might even be to do absolutely nothing.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

No HD DVD nor BDA have that power but the EU has the power to levy fines against studios who cannot justify not supporting a platform. These studios are free to go about their ways but their product may be blocked from sales in the EU because of their actions.

Why should every studio have to support both formats? What reason is there for that? Just because some people bought HD DVD players every studio should ship every movie on HD DVD?

By that reasoning Apple should be forced to make all its software run natively on all Windows based machines and all Unix and Linux based machines. I know several people who would like to see Apple's multimedia suite run on Windows. Similarly, Microsoft should be forced to make all its software run on Mac OS X and Unix and Linux. I know many people who want Access and Project on their Mac.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

You are attempting to draw differences between the Microsoft vs EU case and my proposal and failing miserably.

You were the one who tied Microsoft's situation and the EU and what might evolve with HD DVD and Blu-ray at the EU together. If anyone failed miserably it was (and is) you.

Originally Posted by hmurchison

Microsoft is no more of a monopoly than Apple is a monolopy in music. The crux of the issue is anti-trust. Are consumers hurt by closed and predatory practices? If the answer is yes then fines are justified by the EU. Period.

Microsoft has been declared a monopoly by the U.S. government, several U.S. states and the EU. Like it or not, Microsoft IS legally a monopoly. The courts have ruled it so. No such declaration has been made about Apple, iTunes or iPods. PERIOD.

The rules ARE different if the company is a declared monopoly. This is one of the core issues in anti-trust law. Monopolies are NOT illegal in any U.S. state nor are they illegal in the EU. However, using anti-competitive practices to either maintain or expand that monopoly is almost always illegal.

Conversely, a small player does not have to create a level playing field for its competitors... in the U.S. or in the EU. A company which is NOT a monopoly does not necessarily have to create a level playing field for all its competitors.

Going back to France's new law... the closed practices that Apple and Real and Microsoft all use to implement their DRM is now part of the accepted law. There is nothing wrong, legally, with those practices. None of them have to open their DRM to their competitors.

Originally Posted by nyg

While I'd be surprised if the EU's involvement changes anything, I am all for each format having 100% studio support. That said, why should a studio have to support a format which they believe isn't in their best interests? For example, Fox chose Blu-ray because of their added copyright protection. Who is the EU to tell Fox that it's unacceptable for them to be BD exclusive?

I agree with the core of this statement. If a company makes a decision to support one format over the other because it is either technically superior or fits their business model better then they have the right to support only that format.

For AutoDesk they made the decision in the early 90s to drop AutoCAD support for Macintosh because they were making 95+% of their sales on DOS/Windows. The EU forcing the studios to distribute films on both HD DVD and Blu-ray is like the EU saying that AutoDesk that it has to ship AutoCAD on both Windows and Mac OS X and Unix and Linux.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by marzetta7

Exactly what I was thinking. If they were to do this, you have a government sanctioned / socialistic economy, and not good ol fair (not all the time, however, hehehe) capitalism.

Anyhow, lets hope the good transfers continue.

I guarantee you that they will and with increasing frequency.

[Alex Pallas]

^all this talk about m$ makes me really happy that the ps3 will be implementing linux, i've never used it but i am looking forward to it very much. the ps3 factor should also give alot of funding towards developing high-end software for the linux os as well. i do have to admit that apple has been acting naughty ever since they got power, it really says something about the integrity of a company.

[Psiweaver]

Plus studios can willingly choose what format to support and it wouldn't be too hard to make the argument that becuase only one company is backing hd dvd its chances of failure are much higher than a format that is being back by 5 or 6 major companies. I doubt the EU will be finding too much.

[Blackraven]

Yes, I agree that Blu-ray is so far closing the gap with HD DVD and everyone has no reason to doubt so.

However, with Sony announcing that their "trojan horse" won't release with higher sales projections and the delay for Europe, how would this affect Blu-ray.

The PS3 is an important factor as it IS the cheapest 1G Blu-ray player for the current time, thus it is a "trojan horse for Blu-ray". But with the said announcements by Sony, it seems to be a negative blow for Blu-ray.

So what happens then? Any thoughts or insights about this?

[marzetta7]

Originally Posted by Blackraven

Yes, I agree that Blu-ray is so far closing the gap with HD DVD and everyone has no reason to doubt so.

However, with Sony announcing that their "trojan horse" won't release with higher sales projections and the delay for Europe, how would this affect Blu-ray.

The PS3 is an important factor as it IS the cheapest 1G Blu-ray player for the current time, thus it is a "trojan horse for Blu-ray". But with the said announcements by Sony, it seems to be a negative blow for Blu-ray.

So what happens then? Any thoughts or insights about this?

Same thing happens. The PS3 will continue to be a "trojan horse" as there are 2 million units still being planned to sell by the end of the year. Moreover, they still aim to reach 6 million units by March of 2007.

[Psiweaver]

I doubt they will produce that many for the time being. my guess i more like a million units by the end of the year and maybe 3 million by march.

[Blackraven]

Originally Posted by marzetta7

Moreover, they still aim to reach 6 million units by March of 2007.

That's why I'm worried about.

500k in one week of November, an assumption of 1 mil units for end-November, 2 million by the end of the year.

But after 2006, they need the remaining FOUR million units over a span of JUST THREE MONTHS....

They would need at least 133k-135k units PER MONTHS for the remaining period of three months.

Is that even possible?

I know this is off-topic but I do want Sony to fulfill its 6 MILLION PS3 sales target for fiscal year ending March 2007. I DON'T want MS XBOX360 to even beat the Japs and thus I want it to be LAST PLACE out of the three. It doesn't matter if Nintendo would beat Sony (due to the Wii having the cheapest price.

My wish is for the XBOX 360 to stay at the lowest rank and that's why I'm worried about the PS3 sales.

Anyways, if this is getting too OT, I might as well discuss this in the Video games thread instead.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by Blackraven

That's why I'm worried about.

500k in one week of November, an assumption of 1 mil units for end-November, 2 million by the end of the year.

But after 2006, they need the remaining FOUR million units over a span of JUST THREE MONTHS....

They would need at least 133k-135k units PER MONTHS for the remaining period of three months.

Is that even possible?

I know this is off-topic but I do want Sony to fulfill its 6 MILLION PS3 sales target for fiscal year ending March 2007. I DON'T want MS XBOX360 to even beat the Japs and thus I want it to be LAST PLACE out of the three. It doesn't matter if Nintendo would beat Sony (due to the Wii having the cheapest price.

My wish is for the XBOX 360 to stay at the lowest rank and that's why I'm worried about the PS3 sales.

Anyways, if this is getting too OT, I might as well discuss this in the Video games thread instead.

I will be shocked and amazed beyond words if they somehow have 6 MILLION PS3's out on the streets worldwide come March 2007.

I think it's a completely unrealistic and overblown figure.

I think 2 million by that time is even pushing it, quite frankly.

[Psiweaver]

Originally Posted by JTK

I will be shocked and amazed beyond words if they somehow have 6 MILLION PS3's out on the streets worldwide come March 2007.

I think it's a completely unrealistic and overblown figure.

I think 2 million by that time is even pushing it, quite frankly.

I fully agree with this. Especially with the recent shortage of blue lasers and the fact that they just pushed the launch in Europe this 2 million thing is becoming even more doubtful. I do think this will be the hot product though this fall and we will see huge sales of PS3's and very few of XBOX 360

[JTK]

Answer to thread title:

YES!

In less than two months, it's going to greatly exceed HD-DVD in terms of hardware quality and choices thereof.

Software? Already working its way up. Even some of the recent Sony discs are showing obvious improvements.


Remember: Games get won in the "4th quarter."

[hmurchison]

I'm only concerned with pricing.

With digital designs it's easier for 2nd tier companies to match the quality of their tier 1 bretheren. I mean how hard is it to design a system around a powerplant and Broadcom or Sigma chip? It's not like analog circuit design where there were a lot of nuances to each design.

We saw this with DVD players. If they have a Sage chip the player wouldn't look as good as one with a DCDI Faroudja. No one expected HD DVD to look as good as Blu-Ray in the first place so the mere fact that a gap had to be closed is ridiculous.

Blu-Ray's advantage is content and partnerships. If they keep that then they will win regardless of whether their product is superior or inferior to HD DVD in picture quality.

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I'm only concerned with pricing.

With digital designs it's easier for 2nd tier companies to match the quality of their tier 1 bretheren. I mean how hard is it to design a system around a powerplant and Broadcom or Sigma chip? It's not like analog circuit design where there were a lot of nuances to each design.

You have to be careful when you get up to 1080p 60 data rates on the uncompressed side. Though any company that can build PC motherboards should have no trouble with this kind of thing.

However it is not trivial.

Blu-Ray's advantage is content and partnerships. If they keep that then they will win regardless of whether their product is superior or inferior to HD DVD in picture quality.

Indeed.

[Psiweaver]

don't forget that much of the audio is still analog audio and will still need to be processed well. not to mention just because its digital doesn't mean that someone can have problems implamenting it. just look at the early cd players they sounded horrible compared to vinyl and look at why you can still pay way more for a better cd player ie something from meridian than you can for the off the shelf sanyo at your local cc or bby.

[JTK]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

I'm only concerned with pricing.

With digital designs it's easier for 2nd tier companies to match the quality of their tier 1 bretheren. I mean how hard is it to design a system around a powerplant and Broadcom or Sigma chip? It's not like analog circuit design where there were a lot of nuances to each design.

We saw this with DVD players. If they have a Sage chip the player wouldn't look as good as one with a DCDI Faroudja. No one expected HD DVD to look as good as Blu-Ray in the first place so the mere fact that a gap had to be closed is ridiculous.

Blu-Ray's advantage is content and partnerships. If they keep that then they will win regardless of whether their product is superior or inferior to HD DVD in picture quality.

Hardware wise: You get what you pay for.

There isn't going to be any doubt in my mind that, at least on the hardware end, the forthcoming BD players are going to smoke and burn the clunky, poor man's HTPC's that Toshiba has put out for their format.

Not even close.