The Night Manager (Unrated) (Blu-ray/UV) (Pre-order)

[McCrutchy]

Originally Posted by minister_x

Thank you so much for putting me out of my misery - it looks like I was entirely wrong and you are right, as the theme music from the soundtrack is perfectly in sync with the UK versions. I guess the episodes must be slowed down for US release since 1080i/50 content is probably never released in North America?

Correct, standard 60Hz (e.g., Japan, North America) equipment does not display 50Hz video signals, although the opposite is true, which is why live releases shot in Europe/Australia, like music concerts, or opera/theatre discs, are often in NTSC format on DVD, or 1080i29.97 (which is 1080/30i, often referred to as simply 1080i) on Blu-ray. Particularly on Blu-ray. It's rarer to see live material on disc that is 1080/50i unless it's country-specific, like a TV special, or the subject is only really known in Europe, or a North American release is coming from a different company.

For example, a Eurovision Song Contest Blu-ray might well be sold only in Europe, and be native 1080/50i, since that isn't well-known over here. But an Eric Clapton concert filmed in the UK, or a Madonna concert filmed in France, would be either 1080/30i, or 1080p, unless there was a separate, local release through a European label, and that is really down to costs, because for many of these programs, you only want to author one disc depending on the intended audience, and 50Hz video is usually always converted, because the 60Hz video formats work everywhere, and particularly in the US and Japan, the world's two largest home video markets.

That's sort of what happened with The Night Manager. Sony rightly took advantage of their relationship to Blu-ray to produce the native 1080/50i version, which went on sale months ago in the UK and Australia. Incidentally, that version is also region-locked to B, though they erred in showing that on some of the UK packaging. Now, due, no doubt, to the long delay between the two editions, Sony can re-encode the program for 60Hz territories exclusively, which they would have always had to do, anyway. But, if you can play it, obviously it's better to have the native 1080/50i release, since it runs the correct time, and at the proper speed, without the need for 4% slowdown and (hopefully) pitch correction.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by McCrutchy

For example, a Eurovision Song Contest Blu-ray might well be sold only in Europe, and be native 1080/50i, since that isn't well-known over here. But an Eric Clapton concert filmed in the UK, or a Madonna concert filmed in France, would be either 1080/30i, or 1080p, unless there was a separate, local release through a European label, and that is really down to costs, because for many of these programs, you only want to author one disc depending on the intended audience, and 50Hz video is usually always converted, because the 60Hz video formats work everywhere, and particularly in the US and Japan, the world's two largest home video markets.

The BBC BD of Danny Boyle's 2012 Olympics opening ceremony, with his commentary, is similarly 1080i/50 from a master meant solely for PAL broadcast.

Luckily I have a regionless player that does an excellent job of converting the signal, and that disc and all the Wallanders look fantastic.

I'll definitely be picking up the UK edition of The Night Manager, and not this altered US version. Everyone on the US disc will move with a slight unnatural slowness, and likely have deeper voices, as Helen Mirren did on Prime Suspect, lol.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by minister_x

Thank you so much for putting me out of my misery - it looks like I was entirely wrong and you are right, as the theme music from the soundtrack is perfectly in sync with the UK versions. I guess the episodes must be slowed down for US release since 1080i/50 content is probably never released in North America?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but glad I could help.

Yes, 99% of American players are intentionally designed not to be able to output 1080i/50 signals to American TVs, presumably to keep Americans from playing imports. Only a small fraction, mostly regionless players, like my secondary machine, can do so.

[McCrutchy]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

I'll definitely be picking up the UK edition of The Night Manager, and not this altered US version. Everyone on the US disc will move with a slight unnatural slowness, and likely have deeper voices, as Helen Mirren did on Prime Suspect, lol.

Well, that was a catalogue television release from a smaller label, not brand new native HD (in point of fact, 4K) material coming from Sony. I'm certain that the conversion of The Night Manager will be more or less seamless, and assuming that Sony use pitch correction for the audio, you probably won't be able to tell the difference unless you note the run times. That's the benefit of being a new release from a major studio.

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but glad I could help.

Yes, 99% of American players are intentionally designed not to be able to output 1080i/50 signals to American TVs, presumably to keep Americans from playing imports. Only a small fraction, mostly regionless players, like my secondary machine, can do so.

I'm not so sure. Initially, the differences may simply have grown out of electrics. and the way that voltages in 50Hz territories necessitated different television broadcast signals. The bigger question is really why modern 60Hz televisions have not incorporated 50Hz support, even as most every other type of display has. Today, most valuable properties are produced with Hollywood involvement, and generally, Hollywood ensures domestic US releases come first (although this is shifting a bit, mainly due to piracy concerns) and are widely available, so I don't think typical Americans see much need to import, unless they are enthusiasts looking for particular versions. Perhaps there was at one time a fear of that in Hollywood, but in terms of moden technology, I expect it has more to do with the US and Japan sharing both 60Hz video and (historically) television manufacturing, and Japan being equally, if not more concerned about European, Australian and Asian imports into Japan. As for why it continues, even as actual manufacturing moves away from Japan and into Asia at large, I expect that could easily be down to the status quo, which is precisely why we are seeing many of the newer non-Japanese brands with "hidden" 50Hz support. Though I suppose you could argue that if television manufacturers removed 50Hz capability from only their Japanese models, it might continue to drive the price of Japanese televisions up, in a country where these products are notoriously expensive in the first place.

[megatwins]

I'm so confused by the 1080/50i vs. 1080/24p thing. I watched this show in the US and it looked great on my TV. Voices sounded 100% accurate to me, I didn't notice any sort of unnatural slowness or anything like that. I know America broadcasts at 29fps though, right? I am very adamantly against 1080i, and I would much prefer the 1080p version, but now y'all have me worrying about the way it's going to look and sound. I am very sensitive to "flaws" or inaccuracies that may be present in any film that I watch. Is it really as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be? I mean, it's only one frame per second less, correct?

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by megatwins

I'm so confused by the 1080/50i vs. 1080/24p thing. I watched this show in the US and it looked great on my TV. Voices sounded 100% accurate to me, I didn't notice any sort of unnatural slowness or anything like that. I know America broadcasts at 29fps though, right? I am very adamantly against 1080i, and I would much prefer the 1080p version, but now y'all have me worrying about the way it's going to look and sound. I am very sensitive to "flaws" or inaccuracies that may be present in any film that I watch. Is it really as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be? I mean, it's only one frame per second less, correct?

The 29.97 framerate of NTSC doesn't really factor into this, movies are still shown at 24 fps in NTSC. However they're sped up to 25 fps for PAL. As a result, European TV shows have always been shot for that rate, on film, and still today in the era of HD, it seems. This means they play normally for their intended audience, but they have to be slowed down for American airing.

In the days of VHS and DVD they often didn't do this, they would just convert the program, and you'd get PAL-NTSC ghosting, giving the weird camcorder feel that lots of old British TV has when watched in the US, because the frames are all kind of fuzzily mixed together. Pause an American DVD of an old UK show, you'll find that half the frames are actually fuzzy mixes of two successive frames.

In the era of HD, that quick fix is not possible, so we're getting British shows slowed down - Prime Suspect, Pride & Prejudice, The Lost Prince, apparently Wallander, and apparently this series too.

That 1 frame per second is a difference in speed of 4%. Some people notice it, some don't. I find PAL-sped-up movies totally unwatchable, but lots of people don't notice the difference. I also find slowed down PAL material to be distracting, but again, you may not notice it.

I watched the BBC airings of this miniseries, not the AMC, so I can't say for sure that the American run was slowed down, but the longer running time for the BD certainly suggests that's the case. And a user above matched the soundtrack album exactly to the UK version, seeming to prove it's at the correct speed.

However it sounds like you're in the majority of people who never notice the speed change, so you might be fine with the US disc.

[McCrutchy]

Originally Posted by megatwins

I'm so confused by the 1080/50i vs. 1080/24p thing. I watched this show in the US and it looked great on my TV. Voices sounded 100% accurate to me, I didn't notice any sort of unnatural slowness or anything like that. I know America broadcasts at 29fps though, right? I am very adamantly against 1080i, and I would much prefer the 1080p version, but now y'all have me worrying about the way it's going to look and sound. I am very sensitive to "flaws" or inaccuracies that may be present in any film that I watch. Is it really as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be? I mean, it's only one frame per second less, correct?

There's no need to worry, especially with a big studio like Sony at the controls.

You're correct, but think of it more like "faster" and "slower" as opposed to "accurate" and "flawed" or "better" and "worse".

The Sony US Blu-ray will be fine, it will be full 1080p24 (not the US broadcast rate of 1080i29.97) and run at 24 fps. Because the series was produced by the BBC in the UK and shot in Europe, it plays in the European broadcast speed of 25 fps over there, and that's why the European Blu-ray releases do, too. In the United States, we don't use 25 fps video on televisions, so we need to either slow the series down to 24 fps, or convert it to 29.97 fps. And because the series is digital, it should be a snap to apply pitch correction to the audio, so that there's no difference between the look and sound of either Blu-ray, beyond the running time per episode.

Historically, many UK TV productions wete not lucky enough to have studios who care, or have the time and money to do the conversion properly, but that won't be the case here.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by McCrutchy

The Sony US Blu-ray will be fine, it will be full 1080p24 (not the US broadcast rate of 1080i29.97) and run at 24 fps. Because the series was produced by the BBC in the UK and shot in Europe, it plays in the European broadcast speed of 25 fps over there, and that's why the European Blu-ray releases do, too. In the United States, we don't use 25 fps video on televisions, so we need to either slow the series down to 24 fps, or convert it to 29.97 fps. And because the series is digital, it should be a snap to apply pitch correction to the audio, so that there's no difference between the look and sound of either Blu-ray, beyond the running time per episode.

Even with pitch conversion, the material will still be running 4% slower than normal, so movements will not be at their original speed, and some people will notice that difference, just as with PAL-speedup. I'm more familiar with that, since I only own one slowed-down BD (The Lost Prince), but I always notice the speed difference, regardless of the audio.

The only way to watch the series exactly as it was shot, at the intended speed, will be the UK BD, which most Americans won't be able to play.

Still, the previous commenter sounded like they're in what is, I admit, the vast majority or people who aren't bothered by the speed change. But it'll definitely be present, it seems.

[James Luckard]

The extremely good news is that there are both US and UK BDs of this series, so everyone can buy the version they prefer. "Prime Suspect", "Endeavour", "The Bletchley Circle", "Dancing on the Edge" and many, many other UK shows are only available on BD in the US, all slowed down.

[McCrutchy]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

Even with pitch conversion, the material will still be running 4% slower than normal, so movements will not be at their original speed, and some people will notice that difference, just as with PAL-speedup. I'm more familiar with that, since I only own one slowed-down BD (The Lost Prince), but I always notice the speed difference, regardless of the audio.

If you're referring to this UK Blu-ray, which you must be, that's a whole different situation:



For one thing, this is a release from 2008, in the relatively early days of the Blu-ray format. For another, this is a BBC UK Blu-ray, and while the BBC are one of the largest corporations in the world, their Blu-ray releases are handled by separate divisions of their own company, who, as far as I know, operate totally independent of one another. The UK side generally produces excellent Blu-ray Discs for the UK in 2016, but back in 2008, they were significantly less competent with the then-new format. There are various deficiencies with this disc in the first place, starting with the lack of full lossless audio. But, the problems you are seeing and hearing almost certainly derive from a poor framerate conversion of the UK 1080/50i broadcast master to 1080p24 for the disc, a conversion that would have been unnecessary for a UK-only Blu-ray in the first place. If the BBC were producing the same UK-only disc in 2016, it would be significantly better.

And in any event, even today, neither the UK arm of the BBC, nor BBC Warner in the States, are as skilled with Blu-ray production as Sony, who are, of course, synonymous with the Blu-ray format itself.

Originally Posted by James Luckard

The only way to watch the series exactly as it was shot, at the intended speed, will be the UK BD, which most Americans won't be able to play.

Still, the previous commenter sounded like they're in what is, I admit, the vast majority or people who aren't bothered by the speed change. But it'll definitely be present, it seems.

Most people, on both sides of the Atlantic, are totally clueless about this situation, and simply buy local video versions across all formats. The situation is perhaps more obvious to Europeans now, with the universal 1080p standard that should be applied to all American films, most European films, and all American television (not originally broadcast live) on Blu-ray, but really, most people don't even know to care. The vast majority simply buy local, and 95% of the time, local releases are native format, anyway, but if a film or television product needs to be converted in 2016, that is easy to do properly. On the other hand, improperly converted releases do exist on both sides of the pond, but in 2016, with a 4K-shot series like The Night Manager, being released by Sony, in both the UK and the USA, that's extremely unlikely, especially given the gap between releases.

[megatwins]

I'm not necessary worried about the frame rate being "correct" (as in how it was shot), I'm just VERY sensitive to motion problems and sound. If I notice any sort of weirdness in the motion on my TV I totally freak out. That being said, when I watch shows on TV, movies on DVD, Blu-ray, or whatever else I never notice any differences in the motion despite the fact that different frames rates are used for the formats. I do own a regionless player, so if it's 100% necessary that I purchase the UK version of the show I will, but like I said earlier I HATE 1080i. Isn't that not even considered "true HD"? Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, I have been lead to believe that juddering accompanies 1080i material. Is this true or does it just depend on the television you own? I have a seven year old Panasonic Plasma.

[McCrutchy]

Originally Posted by megatwins

I'm not necessary worried about the frame rate being "correct" (as in how it was shot), I'm just VERY sensitive to motion problems and sound. If I notice any sort of weirdness in the motion on my TV I totally freak out. That being said, when I watch shows on TV, movies on DVD, Blu-ray, or whatever else I never notice any differences in the motion despite the fact that different frames rates are used for the formats. I do own a regionless player, so if it's 100% necessary that I purchase the UK version of the show I will, but like I said earlier I HATE 1080i. Isn't that not even considered "true HD"? Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, I have been lead to believe that juddering accompanies 1080i material. Is this true or does it just depend on the television you own? I have a seven year old Panasonic Plasma.

Well, first of all, the Sony UK/Australia Blu-ray releases of The Night Manager are locked to Region B, so you would need a Region B or multiregion player to play the discs in the first place.

But, the program content is actually 1080p25. The reason the encode is done in a 1080/50i "container", if you will, is because the Blu-ray Disc Association does not allow 1080p25 to be part of the Blu-ray format, for reasons that escape us.

So, whenever a series is native 25 fps, it always gets encoded as 1080i, but, because the video is progressive in the first place, there are no interlaced frames. And it is interlaced frames which cause motion judder issues. So, the discs should not cause any issues because of being encoded as 1080/50i.

Now, saying that, if you live in North America, even if you can play Region B Blu-ray Discs, you will need to make sure you can display 50Hz video signals, otherwise, even if you play the disc in a multiregion player, you will only get sound, not video so be sure to research your display and player online if you're not sure.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by megatwins

Also, I have been lead to believe that juddering accompanies 1080i material. Is this true or does it just depend on the television you own? I have a seven year old Panasonic Plasma.

I have all the UK Wallander BDs, they're all 1080i/50, and I've never noticed any juddering or other problems when I watch them on a regionless player on a seven-year-old US Samsung TV, so you should be safe on that front at least.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by megatwins

I'm not necessary worried about the frame rate being "correct" (as in how it was shot), I'm just VERY sensitive to motion problems and sound.

If you're sensitive to motion problems, then I suspect you might notice frame rate changes, like I do. Have you ever watched a PAL DVD, with speedup? This is the reverse situation, the whole show will be playing at only 96% speed, so human movement, ripples in water, leaves blowing in the breeze, etc, will all be at an unnatural speed. It will just be slower, unlike PAL speedup, where I feel like I'm cocaine or something while watching a movie, because everything is moving just the tiniest bit faster than it should.

Again, the vast majority of people never notice this, but those who do, like me, find it a huge distraction.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by McCrutchy

For one thing, this is a release from 2008, in the relatively early days of the Blu-ray format. For another, this is a BBC UK Blu-ray, and while the BBC are one of the largest corporations in the world, their Blu-ray releases are handled by separate divisions of their own company, who, as far as I know, operate totally independent of one another. The UK side generally produces excellent Blu-ray Discs for the UK in 2016, but back in 2008, they were significantly less competent with the then-new format. There are various deficiencies with this disc in the first place, starting with the lack of full lossless audio. But, the problems you are seeing and hearing almost certainly derive from a poor framerate conversion of the UK 1080/50i broadcast master to 1080p24 for the disc, a conversion that would have been unnecessary for a UK-only Blu-ray in the first place. If the BBC were producing the same UK-only disc in 2016, it would be significantly better.

Yep, that's the disc. It actually looks quite good, but it's still like five or ten minutes longer than my old DVD was, because it's playing at only 96% speed. I don't think they did pitch correction, which would have helped with voices and music, etc sounding wonky, but the movement is still slowed, and there's really no cure for that, unfortunately, since the production was shot at 25fps.

[megatwins]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

If you're sensitive to motion problems, then I suspect you might notice frame rate changes, like I do. Have you ever watched a PAL DVD, with speedup? This is the reverse situation, the whole show will be playing at only 96% speed, so human movement, ripples in water, leaves blowing in the breeze, etc, will all be at an unnatural speed. It will just be slower, unlike PAL speedup, where I feel like I'm cocaine or something while watching a movie, because everything is moving just the tiniest bit faster than it should.

Again, the vast majority of people never notice this, but those who do, like me, find it a huge distraction.

I only just bought my region free player a couple of weeks ago, but I have had the chance to watch one PAL DVD (or at least I assume it was) and I did not notice anything looking out of whack. Hopefully I'm not sensitive to things being slowed down either, I feel like that may look a little more odd since I'm used to looking at things being sped up because television is broadcast at 29fps.

I'm wondering though, why would the voices not sound weird on cable TV if the frame rate is being sped up? I wouldn't think that there would be enough time to apply some sort of correction.

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by megatwins

I only just bought my region free player a couple of weeks ago, but I have had the chance to watch one PAL DVD (or at least I assume it was) and I did not notice anything looking out of whack. Hopefully I'm not sensitive to things being slowed down either, I feel like that may look a little more odd since I'm used to looking at things being sped up because television is broadcast at 29fps.

I'm wondering though, why would the voices not sound weird on cable TV if the frame rate is being sped up? I wouldn't think that there would be enough time to apply some sort of correction.

American TV being at 29.97 fps doesn't change the speed of theatrical movies, they're still shown at 24fps on US TV. They found a way to work the 24 frames into the broadcast standard of 29.97. here's an overview of the method:

https://documentation.apple.com/en/c...5%26tasks=true

Theatrical movies are only shown sped up on PAL broadcasts, where they're run at 25 fps.

If you've been watching American TV, you've never seen a movie sped up, most likely. However if you watched a PAL DVD and had no problems, chances are you're in the huge percentage of people who are not bothered by the speed change.

(As a little bit of trivia, yes, the truth is that movies are slightly slowed down for NTSC, from 24 fps to 23.98 fps, but that difference is truly impossible to notice.)

[megatwins]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

If you've been watching American TV, you've never seen a movie sped up, most likely. However if you watched a PAL DVD and had no problems, chances are you're in the huge percentage of people who are not bothered by the speed change.

(As a little bit of trivia, yes, the truth is that movies are slightly slowed down for NTSC, from 24 fps to 23.98 fps, but that difference is truly impossible to notice.)

Thanks for all the useful information. Some of this stuff can be quite complex! I am hoping that I am in that huge percentage who isn't bothered by the speed change because I really want to own this show, and I don't want to risk purchasing the UK BD and being disappointed by it in some way.

Now, if films are still shown at 24fps on US televisions, does that mean that The Night Manager was shown at 24fps like a movie would be?

[James Luckard]

Originally Posted by megatwins

Thanks for all the useful information. Some of this stuff can be quite complex! I am hoping that I am in that huge percentage who isn't bothered by the speed change because I really want to own this show, and I don't want to risk purchasing the UK BD and being disappointed by it in some way.

Now, if films are still shown at 24fps on US televisions, does that mean that The Night Manager was shown at 24fps like a movie would be?

That I don't know. I tend to watch the British airings of these shows, and when they're run in the US they're often edited (both this show and Wallander were cut, and PBS tends to edit everything British that it airs like Downton, Sherlock, etc), so it's difficult to compare even running times to know.

One great way to compare is, as was pointed out earlier, to play the soundtrack CD against the broadcast and see if the speed of the music matches. That's how the British makers of the Dekalog BD set learned the series was intended to run at 25fps and not 24 fps. Someone already did this with THE NIGHT MANAGER and found the BBC airings matched the CD, so the US airing was presumably slowed down to 24 fps, assuming the longer running time given for the US BD is accurate.

[megatwins]

Originally Posted by James Luckard

That I don't know. I tend to watch the British airings of these shows, and when they're run in the US they're often edited (both this show and Wallander were cut, and PBS tends to edit everything British that it airs like Downton, Sherlock, etc), so it's difficult to compare even running times to know.

One great way to compare is, as was pointed out earlier, to play the soundtrack CD against the broadcast and see if the speed of the music matches. That's how the British makers of the Dekalog BD set learned the series was intended to run at 25fps and not 24 fps. Someone already did this with THE NIGHT MANAGER and found the BBC airings matched the CD, so the US airing was presumably slowed down to 24 fps, assuming the longer running time given for the US BD is accurate.

I didn't notice any out of the ordinary movement when I watched The Night Manager on AMC, so if it was indeed shown at 24fps I guess I'm in the clear with the US Blu-ray. Thanks so much for all your help! And thank you to anyone else who replied to me as well!