Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker
Thanks murch13, I never tire of that.
The cut to the quail hunt aside, I don't the feel or the pace of the scene is unduly effected by those few short cuts, though I'd obviously prefer to have things absolutely correct.
But once again it appears we have a Leone film with not just a couple of different cuts, but several.
Questions. How sure are we that this German version wasn't just for Germany? It is, after all, a German title sequence. Do we have any information on whether Leone himself had any hand or any say in the cuts Paramount made?
It's quite common for films to be cut from a premiere showing, sometimes on several occasions, and is often a director 'tidying up' their work, rather than studio imposition. How sure are we which it was here?
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Here is the original Video watchdog article which alerted me to the issues with the current release (specifically this article is referring to the paramount dvd, not the Scorsese restoration, but the Scorsese restoration only restored 2 1/2 shots back into the opening scene, and actually put in an even longer version of Harmonica rising.)
https://imgur.com/a/2DqWW
Here are the differences between the previous Paramount DVD and the Scorsese restoration BLU:
The Scorsese adds just two shots to the opening (before rising) and extends a third. After the train has arrived and the train guy throws the parcel off, there are a few shots, then Woody Strode smiles over at Jack Elam.
1. There is a NEW shot of Jack Elam smiling back
2. then a NEW shot of him drumming on his gun. A FLY buzzes around his hand. In the italian version we HEAR a fly buzz on this shot, here it's not there (or not as prevalent).
3. It then cuts back to the C.U. shot of Elam where he leaves frame although the beginning of that is EXTENDED and has him shaking his head before he motions to leave with a tilt of his head (and then leaves frame as in the Paramount DVD).
This is similar to a sequence of shots in the extended Italian version except the long Italian version has an extra shot of the train, then an extra shot of Elam (before the holster tapping shot) in between those 3 shots.
The RISING scene now has a couple extended shots.
4. When Harmonica brings his arm over to sling it, the beginning of that shot is now extended to show him moving parts of his jacket around first.
5. The last shot of the scene is also extended -he puts his gun in the bag and then the extended shot holds on his boots walking off frame (the U.S. cut ends with him picking up his bag)
This is exactly how the rising scene plays out in the extended italian cut.
6. Just before the the CU shot of the father at the well, the daughter turns to react to the cicadas going quiet - her reaction is a second longer in the Scorsese cut (this seems odd but I checked it multiple times) The Italian extended cut also has the extra second.
7. Paramount logo comes up 2 or 3 seconds later at the end of the Scorsese cut
So really we got :19 seconds of new footage, not :39 as claimed. Why that particular :19 seconds was chosen is a mystery to me.
The Scorsese cut also fixes (removes) the title overlap of "a sergio leone film" onto the shot of woody strode in the existing paramount dvd version.
Some good points about the rising scene made on the Sergio Leone web board, by a member who grew up watching versions of the film without it:
Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica, and for even a much longer time what the film could be about.
Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.
Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me.
Especially that I'm meanwhile very sure that it was never part of the original theatrical versions, and it is only there because Paramount made some mistakes, and because if once a scene becomes part of a film, it seems impossible to get rid of it again.
So why did Scorsese make this mistake and include the rising scene? First we look at some translations of Leone interviews:
Leone interview in Diego Gabutti's "C'era una volta in America" (page 37) , when he talks about OUTITW: "People very often ask me whether my personal print of the movie contains scenes which had not been added in the final theatrical release" he said grinning "You see? It's like everybody wants me to add a little piece to it..!"
But I think the definite answer about missing scenes in OUTITW is in Franco Ferrini's book "L'antiwestern e il caso Leone" published in 1971. There is a part of an interview with Leone dedicated to cuts and missing scenes of all his westerns, and concerning OUTITW Leone says (page 42): "The scene with the laundry owner's wife and the sheriff is missing, another one in the barbershop, which was particularly funny" The interviewer then asks about the massacre scene (Morton's train) and Leone says: "No, that one I left out on purpose, it was more important to show the result rather than how it happened".
On page 43 Ferrini writes: "
It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release.
It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.
Now we look at an interview with Scorsese - where he says Leone gave him his personal print of the film:
When did you meet Sergio Leone for the first time?
It was at Cannes in 1976, during a dinner at the Oasis, the year when Taxi Driver was competing. There was Costa-Gavras, Sergio Leone, both members of the jury, I, Robert De Niro, Paul Schrader, the screenwriter of Taxi Driver, Jodie Foster, Michael and Julia Phillips, producers of the film. Paul Schrader had toasted Leone to thank him for having toured with Once Upon a Time in the West one of the greatest westerns in cinematic history. We had arrived two days earlier in Cannes and depression we had earned. Tennessee Williams, the jury foreman, told the press he did not like at all Taxi Driver, he was too violent. At dinner, Sergio Leone and Costa-Gavras told us they liked the film. We thought Taxi Driver could still win a prize, perhaps for his screenplay, or its actors. But it took the Palme d'Or! And that is thanks to Sergio Leone.
How has your relationship with him?
I lived partly in Rome between 1978 and 1981. I saw him regularly. Particularly at a luncheon at his home December 31, 1979. I met his wife, his family, met the set designer Dante Ferretti, with whom I will work later on The Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Gangs of New York, Aviator and Hugo Cabret. He knew how much I loved Once Upon a Time in the West, he gave me his copy of the film. It is this copy that I projected in 1980 Film Festival in New York. It was the first time I spoke publicly about the crucial issue of the preservation of films, and more specifically the question of color, which happens if the coils are not kept properly. When Sergio Leone came to New York, I offered to come to dinner with my parents who still lived on the Lower East Side in a building without elevator. We went with Elio Petri (the director of The Working Class Goes to Heaven, Golden Palm at Cannes in 1972). He especially liked the Sicilian cooking from my mother, very different from Roman cuisine to which he was accustomed. And my mother was sensitive to his knife and fork!
So it is fair to assume, Scorsese was working under the assumption that his print was the correct version since it was given to him by Leone, but as we can see it was not the theatrical release.
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