HDR heatmaps and torch mode UHDs

[KMFDMvsEnya]

Starship Troopers please, when you have the chance.
Lovely detail but the average I believe has been boosted.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya

Starship Troopers please, when you have the chance.
Lovely detail but the average I believe has been boosted.

And how, the MaxFALL (so that's the highest frame average brightness, not even the highest peak brightness) is like ~2400 nits IIRC! It's no wonder some people were saying it looked blown out to **** on their TVs when it first appeared.

[Fendergopher]

Starship Troopers looks absolutely amazing on my set, but then again I don't mind a really bright presentation as long as it looks coherent. Same with Ghostbusters I suppose.

[Geoff D]

As long as the brightness doesn't come at the expense of the tone mapping killing the range then yeah, I'm okay with it (and I don't get eye strain as Pyoko suggests, despite watching in a room with no ambient light), but recently I've been using the Panasonic HDR Optimiser to tame most of these Light Cannon™ Sony catalogue grades. Not to neuter the HDR completely but to reduce the peak brightness more to my taste, and so that a passing plane doesn't mistake my street for a runway (not much chance of that at the moment though!).

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As long as the brightness doesn't come at the expense of the tone mapping killing the range then yeah, I'm okay with it (and I don't get eye strain as Pyoko suggests, despite watching in a room with no ambient light), but recently I've been using the Panasonic HDR Optimiser to tame most of these Light Cannon™ Sony catalogue grades. Not to neuter the HDR completely but to reduce the peak brightness more to my taste, and so that a passing plane doesn't mistake my street for a runway (not much chance of that at the moment though!).

Yeah the people at Sony do have a tendency to push highlights further than they maybe should, just look at Black Hawk Down for example.

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by chip75

Great stuff Pyoko!

You mentioned gaming, and I've been wondering if the PlayStation 5 will feature tone-mapping technology akin to what the games have for UHD playback, perhaps Sony will introduce a slider option for their disc releases?

I suppose it's possible, I know they added an optimizer/calibration thing to the PS4 but I don't think any games use it yet. With most of these pre-processors you'll still be fighting whatever the display does when the signal arrives there and it's unfortunate this is how it has to be done. In general I wish we could have seen more transparency across the board, clear documentation on what things do, more advanced options to disable "smart" features, more numerical options and so on. Every HDR display should really include a reference ST2084 decoding mode so you could choose where to do the processing and avoid double tonemapping.

I mean I know stuff is made so people can just have a nice picture out of the box and not have to dig into any of this, but for me there's just too much obfuscation.

"Here, try this HDR-tonemap-dynamic-contrast-metadata-optimizer-enhancer on for size, it'll make HDR content look great on your TV, we won't say how or why or what, just trust us it'll be great, you really need this, no lie!"

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by DR Herbert West

Do T2 for shits and giggles.

I wouldn't let that abomination of a disc into my home if I got it for free, sorry.

Perhaps should have mentioned that I can only do stuff that's in my collection, will put Starship Troopers on the list though.

[nick4Knight]

Appreciate the thread but if its gonna be worth a #%$& ongoing then, yeah, you really need to work on your collection, then

[Alister_M]

In that case, Apocalypse Now and American Psycho could be interesting.

[DR Herbert West]

Predator could be fun.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

Yeah the people at Sony do have a tendency to push highlights further than they maybe should, just look at Black Hawk Down for example.

I watched that yesterday (MaxFALL: 1392/MaxCLL: 4000).

I paused a couple of scenes and switched the HDR Optimizer on/off. It really makes for a better and more pleasant looking presentation IMO, otherwise it's just too much at times (and this movie already has a hot contrast look by nature).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Pyoko

I suppose it's possible, I know they added an optimizer/calibration thing to the PS4 but I don't think any games use it yet. With most of these pre-processors you'll still be fighting whatever the display does when the signal arrives there and it's unfortunate this is how it has to be done. In general I wish we could have seen more transparency across the board, clear documentation on what things do, more advanced options to disable "smart" features, more numerical options and so on. Every HDR display should really include a reference ST2084 decoding mode so you could choose where to do the processing and avoid double tonemapping.

I mean I know stuff is made so people can just have a nice picture out of the box and not have to dig into any of this, but for me there's just too much obfuscation.

"Here, try this HDR-tonemap-dynamic-contrast-metadata-optimizer-enhancer on for size, it'll make HDR content look great on your TV, we won't say how or why or what, just trust us it'll be great, you really need this, no lie!"

We've discussed your incredulity re: HDR handling before, but as soon as "generic" HDR was released with no kind of industry-mandated tone mapping facility and/or much more transparent and granular controls for the end user to adjust the mapping/tracking then it was always going to be a shitshow of contrasting approaches. But as imperfect as the HDR Optimiser is, in some cases it really is better than nothing and because it adjusts the metadata that's being output along with the actual video signal itself then it largely avoids the "double mapping" problem.

[TheSweetieMan]

Zero Dark Thirty, por favor.

[Pyoko]

Too much work over the last week(end) but looked at a few titles. Labyrinth is another rather hot one from Sony.








Album

With a similar highlight roll-off the HDR version would on average be equivalent to the SDR version with peak white at 229 nits (Gamma at 2.40), based on 21 samples. (Min: 162, Max: 367, Median: 217)

[Pyoko]

Mother of all torch mode transfers. This was one of the earliest UHDs I got and remember really reacting to the incredibly bright interior scenes, like the shot with the kids in the doorway. It's also pitted against the new BD from the same master here, so it's not like the difference is due to an old, dark, poorly mastered version or anything like that.








Album

With a similar highlight roll-off the HDR version would on average be equivalent to the SDR version with peak white at 320 nits (Gamma at 2.40), based on 9 samples. (Min: 234, Max: 397, Median: 325)

[PissedOffPeoN]

Cobra on 4k prob had the most HDR scene i have ever seen in any movie. Try that one .

[Pyoko]

What the heck happened here Sony? Not only a sensible average brightness, but a presentation that due to this looks OK despite the low peak. See, you can do it if you just try Sony!

With a similar highlight roll-off the HDR version would on average be equivalent to the SDR version with peak white at 143 nits (Gamma at 2.40), based on 11 samples. (Min: 80, Max: 198, Median: 156)

[Pyoko]

By request. Now this is just silly. Dim interiors and night shots with an average brightness of daylight exteriors on other UHDs. I don't think it has any business being this bright either because the dynamic range of the source film isn't the highest, especially the VFX shots show a lot of clamping and flatness in the upper end.

Some of the numerical comparisons to the SDR aren't really valid here due to crunched shadows and the like, bringing the average up, in general the median value is probably closer to being correct.










Album

With a similar highlight roll-off the HDR version would on average be equivalent to the SDR version with peak white at 497 nits (Gamma at 2.40), based on 44 samples. (Min: 137, Max: 1099, Median: 392)

[Pyoko]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

We've discussed your incredulity re: HDR handling before, but as soon as "generic" HDR was released with no kind of industry-mandated tone mapping facility and/or much more transparent and granular controls for the end user to adjust the mapping/tracking then it was always going to be a shitshow of contrasting approaches. But as imperfect as the HDR Optimiser is, in some cases it really is better than nothing and because it adjusts the metadata that's being output along with the actual video signal itself then it largely avoids the "double mapping" problem.

Well, adjusting the metadata only helps if you trust the display to make sensible choices based on it, which I don't. I think the biggest problem I have with it is that I got myself an LG OLED, maybe if I had spent more on one of them Panasonics or something I might have been more trusting.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Pyoko

Well, adjusting the metadata only helps if you trust the display to make sensible choices based on it, which I don't. I think the biggest problem I have with it is that I got myself an LG OLED, maybe if I had spent more on one of them Panasonics or something I might have been more trusting.

I hear ya. I even second guess what I'm seeing on the ZD9 from time to time, but if I was doing that all the time it'd drive me insane.

[edit] I'll be perfectly honest and say that for all the grief I give OLED as a tech w/ref to image retention or lack of peak brightness or whatever, it's the tone mapping and general processing of LG's sets that's caused me to stay as far away as possible from them. Even Sony's OLEDs don't do much for me as people keep referencing the chroma overshoot problem on them and DV appears to be broken (and I like DV). That pretty much just leaves the Panasonic OLEDs as an option as you say, but even the flagship GZ2000 had problems with banding on bright highlights (dunno if that's been fixed).

Loving these comparisons though, keep 'em coming!