Oppo or Panasonic for Plasma viewing?

[Endoskeleton]

Originally Posted by danny24

Having used a 103D and a 203 from Oppo I can say without a doubt the video looks better on 103D for 4K upscaling of Blu-rays. To a normal viewer though will they notice the difference maybe a little if they look closely but probably not. The 203 still does a great job upscaling BD's to 4K but the 103D is the best at that for the Oppo brand.

The best 4K upscaling of Blu-rays goes to Panasonic UHD players. All these players have their plus and minuses but this is just imo.



The UB420 it's good enough for your setup imo. If you ever come across a 103D used for like $300 jump on it and use both. You will be set for disc players if you ever upgrade your Plasma set to an OLED.

Thanks for your input!
If and when I do upgrade to an OLED, wouldn’t the ub420 or say the 820/9000 be better because of their support of HDR/DV and w/ their HDR optimizer as well?

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Naiera

Do you even know what Darbee is?

It’s false sharpness in a fancy package. Nothing more.

The 103D is exactly the same as my 103, just with the Darbee trash thrown in.

No it is not, they replaced the 2nd video processor which was a Marvel Qdeo, to a Silicon Image VRS video processor which had no slight bit of DNR added. There are other improvements if you care to read below. So in spite of your inexperience with a 103d it was a better player then your 103. The built in FPGA that did the Darbee added no video artifacts because the processing occurred between the MTK SoC and the VRS processor. You are using this to bring out a bit more picture quality to mostly DVDs which don’t have that much video information to begin with, as that is what interpolation upscaling algorithm do.

So because of you lack of experience you keep arguing about this like your 103 is better, it’s not. It’s actually a less capable player to bring out video details using the Marvel QDEO versus Silicon Image VRS. You can try to distract people with this silly argument but it’s a fact.

Kris Deering in his sound & vision review had this to say about the 103 vs 103D changes.

Another big difference from the BDP-103 is the omission of the Marvell QDEO processing chip and the addition of DVDO’s new VRS ClearView processing. The BDP-103 used QDEO for display improvements such as noise reduction, edge enhancement, and the scaling to 4K. The BDP-103D moves some of the video processing to Oppo’s custom Mediatek chip and some to the VRS ClearView processor. The Mediatek chip performs all the deinterlacing and scaling to get the image to 1080p regardless of the source. It’s also responsible for the standard display settings (brightness, contrast, hue, and color) as well as noise reduction. The ClearView processor is responsible for any 4K scaling, but it also provides detail and edge enhancement along with video smoothing for diagonal lines.

Since Vaughn’s review of the BDP-103, Oppo has added a few features to that model—some included out of the box, others via Oppo’s nearly continuous firmware updates. The biggest addition is full support for DSD playback, not just from an SACD disc, which the player has always done, but also from files stored on an external drive or a USB stick. DSD downloads have been getting quite a bit of buzz lately, with several Websites offering downloadable high-resolution DSD files for playback. I’ve had the majority of my SACD library ripped to DSD files and stored on an external hard drive. The same drive also contains the majority of my music library in uncompressed form and tons of high-resolution audio at 96/24 and 192/24 resolutions in FLAC, WAV, and AIFF. The Oppo supports all of those resolutions and file types, and I’ve had no issues using even the digital coaxial output for them. Since the Oppo can convert DSD to PCM, I can use the digital output for all two-channel playback up to 24/192. For multichannel DSD files, you still need to use the HDMI output.

So you keep hoping there is no differences, but there is, it’s tough to be owning something not quite as good a product as the next one, but that is what usually occurs all the time.

[Endoskeleton]

Originally Posted by Naiera

Do you even know what Darbee is?

It’s false sharpness in a fancy package. Nothing more.

The 103D is exactly the same as my 103, just with the Darbee trash thrown in.

Yes, after John provided that link, I read many of the reviews of the 103d, which actually did comparisons side by side with a 103; so I will take their word over your opinion as you have not compared them and seem to just enjoy using the word “trash”.

[Endoskeleton]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

No it is not, they replaced the 2nd video processor which was a Marvel Qdeo, to a Silicon Image VRS video processor which had no slight bit of DNR added. There are other improvements if you care to read below. So in spite of your inexperience with a 103d it was a better player then your 103. The built in FPGA that did the Darbee added no video artifacts because the processing occurred between the MTK SoC and the VRS processor. You are using this to bring out a bit more picture quality to mostly DVDs which don’t have that much video information to begin with, as that is what interpolation upscaling algorithm do.

So because of you lack of experience you keep arguing about this like your 103 is better, it’s not. It’s actually a less capable player to bring out video details using the Marvel QDEO versus Silicon Image VRS. You can try to distract people with this silly argument but it’s a fact.

Kris Deering in his sound & vision review had this to say about the 103 vs 103D changes.



So you keep hoping there is no differences, but there is, it’s tough to be owning something not quite as good a product as the next one, but that is what usually occurs all the time.

Great info John, thanks again for your helpful info!

[jvonl]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

No it is not, they replaced the 2nd video processor which was a Marvel Qdeo, to a Silicon Image VRS video processor which had no slight bit of DNR added. There are other improvements if you care to read below. So in spite of your inexperience with a 103d it was a better player then your 103. The built in FPGA that did the Darbee added no video artifacts because the processing occurred between the MTK SoC and the VRS processor. You are using this to bring out a bit more picture quality to mostly DVDs which don’t have that much video information to begin with, as that is what interpolation upscaling algorithm do.

So because of you lack of experience you keep arguing about this like your 103 is better, it’s not. It’s actually a less capable player to bring out video details using the Marvel QDEO versus Silicon Image VRS. You can try to distract people with this silly argument but it’s a fact.

Kris Deering in his sound & vision review had this to say about the 103 vs 103D changes.



So you keep hoping there is no differences, but there is, it’s tough to be owning something not quite as good a product as the next one, but that is what usually occurs all the time.

Bless you! He's been pounding that drum since the 103D came out! No surprise that he crawled out again.....

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

No it is not, they replaced the 2nd video processor which was a Marvel Qdeo, to a Silicon Image VRS video processor which had no slight bit of DNR added.

There's no DNR on HDMI out 2 on the 103.

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

So you keep hoping there is no differences, but there is, it’s tough to be owning something not quite as good a product as the next one, but that is what usually occurs all the time.

I seriously don't give a crap. As far as Blu-ray playback there is no real difference. The major difference is Darbee and Darbee is not something a true videophile would ever use. It's false sharpness in a fancy package, and will never be anything more.

Originally Posted by jvonl

Bless you! He's been pounding that drum since the 103D came out! No surprise that he crawled out again.....

I've never crawled anywhere My dislike for Darbee has never waned and I will always fight against the use of anything like it.

Note that I never said to not buy an Oppo BDP-103D. It's an ever so slightly better 103, so one should definitely buy it if given a chance. Just don't ever use that Darbee garbage.

[danny24]

Originally Posted by Naiera

Do you even know what Darbee is?

It’s false sharpness in a fancy package. Nothing more.

The 103D is exactly the same as my 103, just with the Darbee trash thrown in.

It's not just false sharpness.
http://www.oppodigital.co.uk/underst...03D-103EU.html

Unlike many other image enhancers or sharpeners, the Darbee processor does not alter the image in a global fashion, so it is able to reduce the amount of image artifacts that are created, and it does not adversely affect calibrated settings such as contrast, gamma, and colour.

I have seen 103 and 103D and there is a little difference. The Qdeo chip on the 103 just isn't as good as the Darbee chip but the 103 still is a nice player. It's not be all end all kind of deal but it enhances the video nicely and I prefer the 103D over the 103 with Qdeo chip.

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by danny24

It's not just false sharpness.

Yes, it is. It's impossible to bring out "more detail" using some completely arbitrary algorithm.

Originally Posted by danny24

I have seen 103 and 103D and there is a little difference. The Qdeo chip on the 103 just isn't as good as the Darbee chip but the 103 still is a nice player. It's not be all end all kind of deal but it enhances the video nicely and I prefer the 103D over the 103 with Qdeo chip.

You're either seeing placebo or you weren't using HDMI2 on the 103. There is no difference for 1080p Blu-ray playback, and I've seen nothing that suggest any impact on 1080i material either.

Note that the Blu-ray format was intentionally created so that perfect 1080p playback is neither expensive nor difficult to achieve. Unless completely incompetently engineered, the only real difference is that some (most cheap ones?) suffer from the chroma bug, and others don't. That's a very small difference though.

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by danny24

http://www.oppodigital.co.uk/underst...03D-103EU.html

"embedding stereoscopic depth cues within the video"

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by danny24

It's not just false sharpness.
http://www.oppodigital.co.uk/underst...03D-103EU.html

I have seen 103 and 103D and there is a little difference. The Qdeo chip on the 103 just isn't as good as the Darbee chip but the 103 still is a nice player. It's not be all end all kind of deal but it enhances the video nicely and I prefer the 103D over the 103 with Qdeo chip.

People that had both to play with come to that opinion. It’s pretty obvious to anyone with a decent setup.

[jvonl]

Originally Posted by Naiera

I seriously don't give a crap. As far as Blu-ray playback there is no real difference. The major difference is Darbee and Darbee is not something a true videophile would ever use. It's false sharpness in a fancy package, and will never be anything more.



I've never crawled anywhere My dislike for Darbee has never waned and I will always fight against the use of anything like it.

Note that I never said to not buy an Oppo BDP-103D. It's an ever so slightly better 103, so one should definitely buy it if given a chance. Just don't ever use that Darbee garbage.

it's not a fight, it's a choice. YOU don't have to use it. YOU don't have to like it. YOU don't get to try to force YOUR choices on ANYONE else! It's very simple. Get it? Live your own life, ok? Carry on....

[Oniiz86]

The OPPO 103D/105D players did suffer from a strange Chroma upsampling limitation employing an undefeatable LPF (Low Pass Filter) with the 4:2:2 color space using HDMI 1 only, so Silicon Image VRS processor output, an owner had discovered it & OPPO did in fact confirm his observations, here http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...=414505#414505, OPPO's response,

"We can confirm the reported screenshot with our own system, it only happens with YCbCr422 color space via HDMI 1 on BDP-103D and 105D, no problem with other Color Spaces as well as HDMI 2 Output.

The root cause is from the ESHD block (Edge Smoothing in High Definition) inside the Silicon Image 9616 video processor: it has a “forced” chroma up-sampling with low pass filter (LPF), which causes the loss of Chroma amplitude. There is no way to disable this LPF unless the block is bypassed (e.g., set the BDP-103D/105D in “Source Direct” mode).

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Oniiz86

The OPPO 103D/105D players did suffer from a strange Chroma upsampling limitation employing an undefeatable LPF (Low Pass Filter) with the 4:2:2 color space using HDMI 1 only, so Silicon Image VRS processor output, an owner had discovered it & OPPO did in fact confirm his observations, here http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...=414505#414505, OPPO's response,

"We can confirm the reported screenshot with our own system, it only happens with YCbCr422 color space via HDMI 1 on BDP-103D and 105D, no problem with other Color Spaces as well as HDMI 2 Output.

The root cause is from the ESHD block (Edge Smoothing in High Definition) inside the Silicon Image 9616 video processor: it has a “forced” chroma up-sampling with low pass filter (LPF), which causes the loss of Chroma amplitude. There is no way to disable this LPF unless the block is bypassed (e.g., set the BDP-103D/105D in “Source Direct” mode).

Yep that bug/hardware limitation required you to use Source Direct when you want to use YCbCr 4:2:2, or to just switch to a different Color Space for output.

It was found using High Frequency Horizontal Resolution Burst from a spearsandmunsil test pattern disc,

From the FAQ (defaults)
HDMI Options

• Color Space(HDMI1) [ Auto | RGB Video Level | RGB PC Level | YCbCr 4:4:4 | YCbCr 4:2:2 ]
• Color Space(HDMI2) [ Auto | RGB Video Level | RGB PC Level | YCbCr 4:4:4 | YCbCr 4:2:2 ]
• Deep Color(HDMI1) [ 36 Bits | 30 Bits (dithered) | 30 Bits | Off (dithered) | Off ]
• Deep Color(HDMI2) [ 36 Bits | 30 Bits (dithered) | 30 Bits | Off (dithered) | Off ]
• De-interlacing Mode [ Auto | Film | Video ]

[Pondosinatra]

Again, Oppo isn't the end all be all...

https://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-...-bdp-85fd-88fd

[Endoskeleton]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

People that had both to play with come to that opinion. It’s pretty obvious to anyone with a decent setup.

It’s also pretty obvious this Naiera guy is a troll or simply is in a denial so I just now disregard his comments

Let me ask you this John, if you could get a brand new ub9000 for $700, or a used 103d for $400, which would you personally take? I have the opportunity for both...

I really like the build quality of the 9000, however since I will be using my SC-79 for audio, I don’t see much difference between the ub420 & and the ub9000 in terms of picture quality other than being THX certified?

Since I want the best picture quality of 1080p/SDR playback i’m curious...or I can just keep my ub420 and save a lot of dough!

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Again, Oppo isn't the end all be all...

https://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-...-bdp-85fd-88fd

It might have been the end of Pioneer because in the US the Oppo BDP-103 sold for $499, while the Pioneer BDP-85FD used the same Marvel QDEO video processor for $999. The CA price was insane at $1299. There was no streaming, no expanded set of audio/video codecs. Because of this excessive pricing it drew few fans and very few reviews. It’s no doubt a good player, but Pioneer pricing was a bit excessive with their players.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Endoskeleton

It’s also pretty obvious this Naiera guy is a troll or simply is in a denial so I just now disregard his comments

Let me ask you this John, if you could get a brand new ub9000 for $700, or a used 103d for $400, which would you personally take? I have the opportunity for both...

I really like the build quality of the 9000, however since I will be using my SC-79 for audio, I don’t see much difference between the ub420 & and the ub9000 in terms of picture quality other than being THX certified?

Since I want the best picture quality of 1080p/SDR playback i’m curious...or I can just keep my ub420 and save a lot of dough!

The UB420 is a economy version of the popular UB820 without Dolby Vision, playback. The UB9000 is more well built, significantly heavier UHD player with expanded features compared to the UB820. $700 is a very good price, since it goes for $1000. I would go that route if you want future proof. The 103D is a good player for DVD/BD, but where are you eventually going? Your call.

[Endoskeleton]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

The UB420 is a economy version of the popular UB820 without Dolby Vision, playback. The UB9000 is more well built, significantly heavier UHD player with expanded features compared to the UB820. $700 is a very good price, since it goes for $1000. I would go that route if you want future proof. The 103D is a good player for DVD/BD, but where are you eventually going? Your call.

Good point...I eventually will upgrade to an OLED so I think the ub9000 is the best choice, I just didn’t know if it had any picture quality difference than my ub420 for SDR playback.

I have one last question, I read the ub9000 has a very good 32-bit/768khz DAC. My pioneer elite SC-79 has a SABRE, 32-bit-192khz DAC (same as the ub820 I think)
Which is better as I really don’t know what the khz does exactly?
These will be powering my B&W CM8s I should note

If the ub9000 is better and I wanted to use the built-in DAC of the ub9000, would setting the audio output to PCM v.s. bitstream out employ this?

Thanks John, you’ve been very helpful.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Endoskeleton

Good point...I eventually will upgrade to an OLED so I think the ub9000 is the best choice, I just didn’t know if it had any picture quality difference than my ub420 for SDR playback.

I have one last question, I read the ub9000 has a very good 32-bit/768khz DAC. My pioneer elite SC-79 has a SABRE, 32-bit-192khz DAC (same as the ub820 I think)
Which is better as I really don’t know what the khz does exactly?
These will be powering my B&W CM8s I should note

If the ub9000 is better and I wanted to use the built-in DAC of the ub9000, would setting the audio output to PCM v.s. bitstream out employ this?

Thanks John, you’ve been very helpful.

Analog outputs are typical paired with music playback, not so much video with lossless audio from physical media where everyone would be using HDMI connectivity unless you have a analog only AVR, you don't.

Focusing on AKM AK4493 32-bit DAC used in the UB9000 vs what you have in your SC-79 which is SABRE32 Ultra DAC ( ES9016S). They aren't necessary better than each other.

If you were using something higher end like a Oppo 105/205 that would be more akin to a source that interfaces to higher end analog interconnectivity pre-amps/amps by HiFi fans and musicians that would be different. These have DACS that cost a lot more, much better specs. But what you got in your SC-97 AVR will do just fine as performing the DAC functionality.

If you want to play SACD, DVD-A and oodles of other odd audio formats, the Panasonic players were never good for that, but if you just to play regular audio media like CD's it can interface to a analog pre-amp/amp combo just fine. The most recent Pioneer AVR's barely have removed multi-channel analog inputs because most are using HDMI now for multi-channel audio from DVD/BD/UHD BD. Its a lot less hassle then many separate RCA cables.

You do bitstream from media to the AVR's DAC's as you want the Room EQ to be active, not use PCM where the player does the decoding. Only something like a Apple TV 4K would use PCM these days because it has limited audio support for videos.