How important is contrast ratio?

[greekjgg]

I just bought a sony 46" 1080p LCD, it had a 7000:1 cr. I was looking at a samsung 40" with a 10000:1 cr. Circuit City was running a sale on the sony with a ps3 for $1999, the samsung was $1299, when they subtracted the $399 off the tv, that made the sony $1599, plus I got another 8% off for Triple A which got it down to about $1450.

So for $150 I got 6 more inches and you really can't notice the difference in CR enough to justify the smaller tv purchase.

I've heard that you can't compare CR's equally from one brand to another like a sony vs a samsung in 10000:1 ratio both use different scales just like when you buy shoes a size 8 with nike fits different in a reebok.

Once you get to about 10000:1 cr I think you are way overpaying for anything higher right now and won't really notice the difference. Same with all this 120 mhz bs that is jacking up the prices, or in my case making what I bought a great deal.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by ryoohki

Most CE quote their CR using Torch Mode (AKA VIVID setting) witch is unusable for most part in normal viewing. ..

Which witch is which?

[DealsR4theDevil]

Originally Posted by Lord_Phan

Then why are you here?!? Blu-ray exists to put the best image possible, that is done with high resolutions(Millions more pixels to add detail to images between 480p to 720p and Millions more than that between 720p and 1080p!)

If you want the BEST possible contrast ratio.... GO BACK TO YOUR Cathode Ray Tube 480i SET! They have WAY Better Contrast ratio than a Plasma ever will

According to the ISF (the guys that professionally calibrate TVs are required to be ISF certified):

Originally Posted by Grisle

"Ultimately, we agree with the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF), a group that consults for home-theater manufacturers and trains professional video calibrators, when it says that the most important aspect of picture quality is contrast ratio, the second-most important is color saturation, and the third is color accuracy. Though resolution may be the most talked-about spec these days, it comes in fourth on the ISF list, and after you sit watching five TVs lined up side by side, you understand why. The fact is a relatively pristine high-def source such as Mission: Impossible III looks sharp on just about any HDTV, and your eye, when looking for differences, is drawn first to things like depth of detail in shadowy material (black levels) and the color of the actors' skin tone and how natural it looks."

[npanzeca]

Originally Posted by greekjgg

I just bought a sony 46" 1080p LCD, it had a 7000:1 cr. I was looking at a samsung 40" with a 10000:1 cr. Circuit City was running a sale on the sony with a ps3 for $1999, the samsung was $1299, when they subtracted the $399 off the tv, that made the sony $1599, plus I got another 8% off for Triple A which got it down to about $1450.

So for $150 I got 6 more inches and you really can't notice the difference in CR enough to justify the smaller tv purchase.

I've heard that you can't compare CR's equally from one brand to another like a sony vs a samsung in 10000:1 ratio both use different scales just like when you buy shoes a size 8 with nike fits different in a reebok.

Once you get to about 10000:1 cr I think you are way overpaying for anything higher right now and won't really notice the difference. Same with all this 120 mhz bs that is jacking up the prices, or in my case making what I bought a great deal.

Is the Sony you bought the 46V2500? Thats one that I'm considering.

[greekjgg]

Originally Posted by npanzeca

Is the Sony you bought the 46V2500? Thats one that I'm considering.

Yep!! I see your from Columbus, I live in Blacklick.

I picked it up last night after much deliberation. This is my 2nd, I have a 50" Samsung DLP 1080P with a 10000:1 cr already.

THis is going in my game room on the wall, I wanted another blu player and game system for the game room so this was the perfect deal for me as I was getting another ps3 regardless of the tv I bought.

The TV is temporarily marked down to $1799 as a reaction to HH gregg, but you can't beat getting it for $1450 when they take of the ps3 price.

[npanzeca]

Originally Posted by greekjgg

Yep!! I see your from Columbus, I live in Blacklick.

I picked it up last night after much deliberation. This is my 2nd, I have a 50" Samsung DLP 1080P with a 10000:1 cr already.

THis is going in my game room on the wall, I wanted another blu player and game system for the game room so this was the perfect deal for me as I was getting another ps3 regardless of the tv I bought.

The TV is temporarily marked down to $1799 as a reaction to HH gregg, but you can't beat getting it for $1450 when they take of the ps3 price.

I was also going to use the 8% off from AAA. Did you get it from CC? How did you get the price so low? I saw it was $1799, what is the ps3 price thing, is that something you have to do in store? I have a 50inch Sony HD projection and wanted to upgrade to 1080p for blu ray.

[greekjgg]

Originally Posted by npanzeca

I was also going to use the 8% off from AAA. Did you get it from CC? How did you get the price so low? I saw it was $1799, what is the ps3 price thing, is that something you have to do in store? I have a 50inch Sony HD projection and wanted to upgrade to 1080p for blu ray.

Basically Circuit City is offering a package in their add that is $1999 for both the TV, Ps3 and remote.

When you add them to your cart, they deduct the $399 off the $1999 price getting it to $1599. When I add in the coupon, it takes another 8% off JUST the tv which takes it to like $1453. THe warranty and ps3 don't qualify for the 8% off. I purchased it online then pu in the store but you can't print of the AAA coupon and take it in.

HH Gregg is offering the same tv for $1799, but JUST the tv so everyone is is market reacting to it, but if you get the package deal for the ps3, it is still $1999. Like I said, I was getting a ps3 regardless of the tv, so this ended up being a killer deal as I was looking at a 40" samsung for $1299. So for $150 more, I got a killer bump in size. If you don't need a ps3, $1799 isn't that great a deal cause they have a 46" samsung with 10000:1 for $1899, but it is out of stock last I checked.

[npanzeca]

Originally Posted by greekjgg

Basically Circuit City is offering a package in their add that is $1999 for both the TV, Ps3 and remote.

When you add them to your cart, they deduct the $399 off the $1999 price getting it to $1599. When I add in the coupon, it takes another 8% off JUST the tv which takes it to like $1453. THe warranty and ps3 don't qualify for the 8% off. I purchased it online then pu in the store but you can't print of the AAA coupon and take it in.

HH Gregg is offering the same tv for $1799, but JUST the tv so everyone is is market reacting to it, but if you get the package deal for the ps3, it is still $1999. Like I said, I was getting a ps3 regardless of the tv, so this ended up being a killer deal as I was looking at a 40" samsung for $1299. So for $150 more, I got a killer bump in size. If you don't need a ps3, $1799 isn't that great a deal cause they have a 46" samsung with 10000:1 for $1899, but it is out of stock last I checked.

So did you get the ps3 package or just the TV? If you only get the tv its still $1799, correct?

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by Lord_Phan

If you want the BEST possible contrast ratio.... GO BACK TO YOUR Cathode Ray Tube 480i SET! They have WAY Better Contrast ratio than a Plasma ever will

Way better on/off CR (which is largely about the absolute black on a blackout screen), but the plasma probably has way better ANSI CR (which best describes the washout from bright objects to dark parts of the screen). I mostly deal with projectors where the on/off CR is more important than the absolute black level in ft-lamberts, because the user can select things like the size of the screen, the screen material, and whether to use a neutral density filter (so they can lower the white and black levels together and the on/off CR gives them an indication of the absolute black level when they have a reasonable white level). With flat panels where people want the whites dimmer because they are too bright, the on/off CR will generally go down as the panel is calibrated for dimmer brights.

Also, the CRs after calibration are really what are important. Manufacturer's specs can be way off what people will get when things are setup properly. And the dynamic on/off CRs complicate this subject somewhat.

--Darin

[reider]

Originally Posted by DealsR4theDevil

According to the ISF (the guys that
professionally calibrate TVs are required to be ISF certified):

This is from the 16 month old article on CNET that is named :"The case against 1080p"... Did you actually see what crappy TV's they used for their tests?? They also seem to misinterpret the ISF's statement in a way that it wasn't an HDTV buyer's guide, but rather the sequence of most noticeable picture quality detractors (as in calibration standpoint).
CR is very important, but on sets larger then 50" no amount of CR will compensate you for the lack of detail and depth caused by lower resolution (720P vs 1080P). Unless of course your viewing distance is more then 8 feet.

[greekjgg]

Originally Posted by npanzeca

So did you get the ps3 package or just the TV? If you only get the tv its still $1799, correct?

I got the ps3, yes it is $1799 by itself.

[jon s]

The Pioneer Kuro plasmas have the best contrast of any current display. thier next gen models coming out next year is even better. you could not see anything on a black screen with the unit on.

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by jon s

The Pioneer Kuro plasmas have the best contrast of any current display. thier next gen models coming out next year is even better. you could not see anything on a black screen with the unit on.

I hope that really does come out next year. I heard it was a proof of concept kind of thing at CES, but didn't hear when we might be able to get one. I wasn't at the show, so just going by what somebody who went to the demo said.

--Darin

[JohnGalt]

Originally Posted by d_rob1031

Until they come out with a mandantory industry standard for testing CR's, I don't trust them.

I'll see your mistrust and raise you one "utterly worthless". Until and unless there's an industry standard for measuring contrast ratios they really don't mean anything at all and should be ignored.

For reference there's been quite a bit of discussion of the apparent fact that the human eye really can't discern much difference between 10k:1 and anything higher.

[nhaase]

Originally Posted by jon s

The Pioneer Kuro plasmas have the best contrast of any current display. thier next gen models coming out next year is even better. you could not see anything on a black screen with the unit on.

If you're talking about that new Kuro that Pioneer debuted at CES this year, I am currently trying to find where I read that this will most likely not be produced, the article says it would be too expensive for anything but professional use, so I would not get my hopes up for that for a while.

Also, for judging contrasts ratios, since you can't really trust a product page, I look at a site like hometheatermag.com, where they test TVs using the same process. Then, even if they're inflated or anything, all numbers are on the same scale.

[MaleManGuy]

is how contrast ratio tends to be measured as a ratio of a lit pixel, to a dark pixel. With the LED Samsung TV there tends to be no light emitted where the LED's are basically off... in a total dark environment... which is NOT your home. Depending on how your TV reacts to reflected light will change your contrast ratio.

The plasma TV's dollar for dollar do the best blacks since the pixels can really be off. The Pioneer Kuro against the Samsung LED... i'd take the Kuro. (Japanese for Black)

So... color reproduction is more important I think. It's very difficult for LCD technology to get colors perfect because of how the polarization works... taking full backlight and subtracting the colors from it... rather than in plasma just making the color you desire. Plasma colors are richer and brighter. Don't you hate it when things are just the wrong color? Get a plasma for truer colors.

Plasma displays are fast too... watching a hockey puck is no problem.

LCD's seem to look over-exposed... as tho the picture was taken with a flash so to speak. Plasmas tend to be the pictures taken without a flash and look more natural.

Plasmas are making a big come-back. I had a 46" Sharp LCD for 1 year and have just switched to plasma. My son and I both agree the picture is way better.

JL

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

For reference there's been quite a bit of discussion of the apparent fact that the human eye really can't discern much difference between 10k:1 and anything higher.

There are a lot of people who don't have much of a clue about contrast ratio and have spread misinformation about it over the last few years. I remember when people said that nobody would see an improvement beyond 2k:1. Then projectors came along with better contrast ratio and low and behold, people could see the improvement in the CR. Others confuse who much we can see at once with how much range we can see over different scenes. You could probably see over a million to one range today just by going outside and then into a darkened room in a house.

Here is part of an article I wrote about CR where a friend and I compared a 15k:1 projector with one that I estimated at 700k:1 on/off CR by doing measurements and calculations:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...devices_3.html

That is down in the section titled, "How Much On/Off CR is Enough?"

Short answer is that even at 700k:1, it still would have taken more for us to not be able to see the screen outline after a few seconds of a blackout in one movie.

I was glad to hear about the Pioneer demo because from what I heard about it, it showed that even with the high CR that one of Pioneer's current or recent plasmas shows with a bright object on a "black" background, the demo showed that peope could easily see improvement beyond that, since it was easy to see that the blacks were much blacker on the prototype or proof of concept display, even with one bright object on each display.

People like Greg Rogers have understood that contrast ratio matters and I trust his measurements in his reviews of front projectors for widescreenreview.

--Darin

[reider]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt

I'll see your mistrust and raise you one "utterly worthless". Until and unless there's an industry standard for measuring contrast ratios they really don't mean anything at all and should be ignored.

For reference there's been quite a bit of discussion of the apparent fact that the human eye really can't discern much difference between 10k:1 and anything higher.

I'll see your "utterly worthless" and raise you that most of the TV's are nowhere even close to 10K:1 Static CR and on top of that I'll add that any CR drops greatly as you add light to the room. So the higher the CR the CE's advertise the better it becomes in real life conditions, but it is still far from the limit of discernibility.
I am very curious though about the CES'08 Kuro Concept claim of "infinite CR" - physically that would mean zero reflection... even if you point a flashlight onto your screen when it's black you will see.... well, nothing. Try this with you screen now (even if you have the famed 81-series Samsung 100K:1) and you'll see the light circle and that your black actually became gray.

[darinp2]

Originally Posted by reider

I am very curious though about the CES'08 Kuro Concept claim of "infinite CR" - physically that would mean zero reflection... even if you point a flashlight onto your screen when it's black you will see.... well, nothing.

I'm pretty sure the infinite CR is on/off CR, which means that if a blackout screen comes up in a movie, you will not be able to see the screen if you don't have other lights on in the room (or light coming in). It does not mean you can point a flashlight at the display and not see the display, since the on/off CR of the display is what it puts out. Just like a front projector with a screen. There is an on/off CR when there is no other lighting and if they can get that to be visibly infinite (you can't see the screen on even a long blackout if there is no other lighting in the room) that would be great. But it doesn't mean that a person can't get lower on/off CR out of the system by turning room lights on or pointing a flashlight at their screen.

From what I heard about the Pioneer demo, after the demo started people couldn't even see that the display was there until images came up on it. And the first image was just one object surrounded by black and it was black enough that my friend said you could not see the rectangular outline of the display window at that point, just the object floating in black. It wasn't until a full screen image came up that he could see the rectangular outline of the screen.

--Darin

[reider]

Originally Posted by darinp2

I'm pretty sure the infinite CR is on/off CR, which means that if a blackout screen comes up in a movie, you will not be able to see the screen if you don't have other lights on in the room (or light coming in). It does not mean you can point a flashlight at the display and not see the display, since the on/off CR of the display is what it puts out. Just like a front projector with a screen. There is an on/off CR when there is no other lighting and if they can get that to be visibly infinite (you can't see the screen on even a long blackout if there is no other lighting in the room) that would be great. But it doesn't mean that a person can't get lower on/off CR out of the system by turning room lights on or pointing a flashlight at their screen.

From what I heard about the Pioneer demo, after the demo started people couldn't even see that the display was there until images came up on it. And the first image was just one object surrounded by black and it was black enough that my friend said you could not see the rectangular outline of the display window at that point, just the object floating in black. It wasn't until a full screen image came up that he could see the rectangular outline of the screen.

--Darin

Darin, I understand what you saying. And I read your article - it was great reading.
You are talking about contrast ratio of an emission source (LED, plasma cell, et.) only, while I am talking about an aggregate CR (real life condition) of an emission and the reflection of other light sources. You perceive something to be totally (infinitely) black only when there are no photons emitted or reflected from that object. To have truly "infinite" CR the aggregate emission on the bottom of the scale (the black) should be equal to zero. If that demo during CES'08 was performed not in total darkness then beside the extremely high static CR, there should have been involved some anti-reflective technology on a scale of the one described in the link below:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...rkest-mat.html