Chinese Gymnists Cheated?

[john_1958]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

http://olympics.timesofindia.indiati...ow/3365641.cms

heard about the radio this morning and then saw it at work.

i didn't even realize there was an age min. in the olympics. i was watching the gymnastics last night and my girlfriend and i were trying to guess the ages of some of the gymnastics and for about 3-4 of the chinese ones we both said 12-14-13-11 and everytime they were 16. a little too coincidental now that i realize their is an age min. in the gymnastics.

i dunno though, im not that into gymnastics, anybody else think something similar.

what i found hilarious was the swede in wrestling throwing a tantrum because he didn't get gold

[jkwest]

whats funny is that people are making a stink about their ages..when the real problem is that these poor girls are taken from their parents when they are 3 years old and raised to be solely athletes and then thrown away...where are the Human Rights Commission when it comes to this sort of stuff?!

[PNF]

Originally Posted by jkwest

whats funny is that people are making a stink about their ages..when the real problem is that these poor girls are taken from their parents when they are 3 years old and raised to be solely athletes and then thrown away...where are the Human Rights Commission when it comes to this sort of stuff?!

while that often be the case, but most of the girls are chosen from Ophanage facilities at young age.

Actually, have you been to china's rural or even just the sub-urban area outside any major cities such as Beijing, shanghai??

The girls are actually making much more and would accomplish more if they were to train away from home, IF THEY CAN BE CHOSEN, out of millions of children.


Also, the standard is quite different, at least for now, in china, from those in the western states. We worry about if we should have a power conditioner to keep the electric current stable for our home theaters... they are worrying about if they will get the next meal and how they will get it.

Human right? Not until they can be fed first.

[Josh]

Lay off the politics or I will shut this down.

[jkwest]

Originally Posted by Josh

Lay off the politics or I will shut this down.

sorry

[cravnsn]

Here’s the problem as I see it – If it’s true that that the government was/is responsible for the alleged missing documentation, can we trust them to investigate the matter?
Also, are we really to believe that there is only one document created to prove the birth of an individual? Wouldn’t the hospital also have their own record? What happens when these girls want to get a drivers license, change schools, travel outside of the country…or for that matter, how can we be sure they’re even who they say they are? I would imagine all other athlete’s have to produce some kind of documentation verifying they are who they say they are…why should it be any different for the host country? Should the IOC have even allowed them to enter the competition in the first place if these young women couldn’t prove who they are?

[PNF]

Originally Posted by Josh

Lay off the politics or I will shut this down.

my bad.

For what it is worth, the chinese cheated, clearly, regardless of how people say chinese people do look younger etc etc..

Well, I am from Taiwan and the way I see it, they look like my youngest sister (who is 15) or even younger.

The yahoo news talk about how their birth certificate and passport being valid..

DUHHH... If the government is cheating, of course this supposed government document is FAKE as well.

I am not surprised if they cheated anyway, as the Chinese have always been finding ways to take advantages.

[PNF]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Here’s the problem as I see it – If it’s true that that the government was/is responsible for the alleged missing documentation, can we trust them to investigate the matter?
Also, are we really to believe that there is only one document created to prove the birth of an individual? Wouldn’t the hospital also have their own record? What happens when these girls want to get a drivers license, change schools, travel outside of the country…or for that matter, how can we be sure they’re even who they say they are? I would imagine all other athlete’s have to produce some kind of documentation verifying they are who they say they are…why should it be any different for the host country? Should the IOC have even allowed them to enter the competition in the first place if these young women couldn’t prove who they are?

All hospitals are controlled by the state (until recently), and now, the state is also controlling and restricting ALL investments in healthcare in china (hospitals, clinics, etc). So, I wouldnt be suprised that the chinese did a complete package of "cheat", by forging false birth certificates, record, passports, everything.

UNLESS you speak to the family of these gynastists, (even then), you probably wont find an answer anyhow.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by john_1958

what i found hilarious was the swede in wrestling throwing a tantrum because he didn't get gold

That guy was extremely unprofessional about it, but he has a good gripe. The judge kept unfairly reffing him versus the Italian who won gold. Specifically, he was being called out of the mat (rule used to stop wrestlers from retreating off the mat repeatedly) even though it was just his finger while the italian did NOT get called even though his whole body was going out, at least a half dozen times.

He's alleging corruption, etc etc. He should have done more of a 1972 US Basketball protest and not showed up for the medal instead of his disrespectful drop to the floor of the medal.... but then would be really talking about it?



As far as the Chinese, it seems blatantly obvous that many, if not most, of those girls are under 16. That said, I think the age restriction is rather arbitrary though I do agree with the underlying motive... It's insulting for the Chinese to lie about it, though.

[PNF]

[QUOTE=Uxi;1086721]That guy was extremely unprofessional about it, but he has a good gripe. The judge kept unfairly reffing him versus the Italian who won gold. Specifically, he was being called out of the mat (rule used to stop wrestlers from retreating off the mat repeatedly) even though it was just his finger while the italian did NOT get called even though his whole body was going out, at least a half dozen times.

He's alleging corruption, etc etc. He should have done more of a 1972 US Basketball protest and not showed up for the medal instead of his disrespectful drop to the floor of the medal.... but then would be really talking about it?
[qUOTE]


I dont think i have ever seen a more disrespectful action that that of throwing a medal on the floor...?? and he sounded like Olympic should be glad he was there to compete or something.

Sure, he can be unhappy about where he was, but to throw down a century worth of history on the ground... i mean. .who the F*** he thinks he is?

[cravnsn]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

It's mostly about power to weight ratios. That is maximized in 12-14 year old girls, but occurs in the early 20s for men.

But, there is also an artistic element (ah sports) that favours a taller sleeker (older) look on some apparatus.

For me, purely judged sports aren't sports at all.

Gary

Amen!


Well, let’s take this to the next level. Suppose it can be proven that the girls were not of age…then what? Sure, they get stripped of their medals & they get re-distributed, but how far does it go? Do you then examine the whole rest of the team, all the members from that country, all participants…and then is China banned from future Olympics? What about other competitions? It seems like a whole lot of trouble & controversy that could have been avoided if the IOC had done it’s job of obtaining the proper documentation up front, and if it wasn’t available, then they should not have allowed them to compete.

And what of the girls? If it can be proven, imagine the shame these young girls are in for the rest of their lives. And if it’s not proven, they will still be labeled as cheaters by many people all around the world. Regardless of their true age, it’s these girls I feel sorry for.

[Gremal]

Good questions, cravnsn. I don't have the answers, but clearly there are rules and clearly there are ways to find out the truth about these girls' ages and clearly there should be consequences if they are underage. This isn't a matter of officiating, but of lying to the world and not playing by the rules. If it can be proved that the Chinese government knew about this, than yeah, banning China from participation for a time should certainly be explored. Of course, the officials there would never admit they knew.

This will be heartwrenching for the girls, but they have to deal with so much adversity anyway, they will survive it.

[dialog_gvf]

The shame of being great gymnasts? I think they can live with that.

The rules were put in place to protect the health of young women who were being subjected to all sorts of pharmacological and dietary regimens to maintain them as little girls.

But, that doesn't alter the fact that the 12-14 year old body form appears to be the best suited for the female gymnastics that have been demanded over the years.

Gary

[m_tyson]

Third best (at least for individual competition).

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

But, that doesn't alter the fact that the 12-14 year old body form appears to be the best suited for the female gymnastics that have been demanded over the years.

[jkwest]

Originally Posted by m_tyson

Third best (at least for individual competition).

BAM!! Good one!!

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Amen!


Well, let’s take this to the next level. Suppose it can be proven that the girls were not of age…then what? Sure, they get stripped of their medals & they get re-distributed, but how far does it go? Do you then examine the whole rest of the team, all the members from that country, all participants…and then is China banned from future Olympics? What about other competitions? It seems like a whole lot of trouble & controversy that could have been avoided if the IOC had done it’s job of obtaining the proper documentation up front, and if it wasn’t available, then they should not have allowed them to compete.

And what of the girls? If it can be proven, imagine the shame these young girls are in for the rest of their lives. And if it’s not proven, they will still be labeled as cheaters by many people all around the world. Regardless of their true age, it’s these girls I feel sorry for.

I agree, its a lose lose for the girls.

If it can be proven that the girls were underage, then all the girls should be stripped of their team gold medal and that should be redistributed accordingly and the girls who were underrage should be stripped of their invdividual medals if they won any. the girls who were of age should be able to keep onto any individual medals.

any other members under heavy suspesion would need to be examined in sports in which there is a min. age.

china should not be banned from any olympics, however place something like a 50 year (25 olympiad) ban on the Olympics returning to China if it can be proven that the Chinese govt/chinese olympic committee was behind this fraud. one thing for an athlete to cheat, its another for a country to cheat.

place new rules on obtaining documentation on olympic athletes well before the games start, the documentation should be inspected and reviewed by a multi-national olympic commitee.

[tommyboy81]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Amen!


Well, let’s take this to the next level. Suppose it can be proven that the girls were not of age…then what? Sure, they get stripped of their medals & they get re-distributed, but how far does it go? Do you then examine the whole rest of the team, all the members from that country, all participants…and then is China banned from future Olympics? What about other competitions? It seems like a whole lot of trouble & controversy that could have been avoided if the IOC had done it’s job of obtaining the proper documentation up front, and if it wasn’t available, then they should not have allowed them to compete.

And what of the girls? If it can be proven, imagine the shame these young girls are in for the rest of their lives. And if it’s not proven, they will still be labeled as cheaters by many people all around the world. Regardless of their true age, it’s these girls I feel sorry for.

Don't know if they can do something like that. If some American stars moved to China and the Olympics came up. China might give them the option to join there team. Just like what with Yao Ming. But he decided to play for his country.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by m_tyson

Third best (at least for individual competition).

Touche.

But, clearly China thinks there is some advantage, or they wouldn't have done it.

Gary

[Cordre69]

It isn't fair to the girls to be sure, but at the same time that helps China hide behind them. Knowing full well what will (likely) become of them will seriously deter a jury or at the very least the motivation in solving the crime. It's like strapping a bunny with a bomb and saying "The bunny gets it if you convict me of a crime".

[GaS]

Communists cheating? Say it ain't so!