Game journalist intentionally misinterprets game company, no one surprised...

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by androvsky

That'd be plenty, I think a fair number of people would settle for basic texturing. There's a ton of homebrew projects stagnating waiting on even the simplest acceleration in Linux; the Cell accelerated OpenGL drivers are probably years away from being usable.

Of course, with decent shaders the PS2 emulation scene might hop on too...

Remember how Sony said they weren't averse to buying a third party PS2 emulator...

[androvsky]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Remember how Sony said they weren't averse to buying a third party PS2 emulator...

Hey, if that's what it takes. The sad thing is the hardest part of the project will be porting the very x86 specific Emotion Engine dynamic recompiler to the PPC, if Sony would like to donate their vastly superior Cell-specific implementation from the partial BC models, it would make things go a lot faster.

Yeah, I know they won't, third-party emulators are a big piracy enabler, but maybe something could be worked out... I dunno, I don't know the PCSX2 people.

[Maximus]

It seems unlikely that SCE would hand over their Cell based solution to a non-sanctioned project...

[NutsAboutPS3]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

It is bogus news, because it's misinterpreted.

He didn't mean "We made this intentionally hard to program for".

He meant "It's hard to program for because it's exceptionally powerful. The only way we could have made something easier to program for is to use weaker technology."

I honestly struggle to read that in his words. It's not an interpretation, it's a direct quote:

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" Kaz claims, "it means the hardware has a lot more to offer".

This is from the Chairman and CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment. He is specifically addressing ease of programming. Perhaps his words were poorly chosen for the sentiment he wanted to convey, but his actual words really do say that he regards it as a benefit for a console to be difficult to program for, because you will get a gradual improvement in game quality over its lifetime as people become more able to exploit its hardware.

I should add that I do not believe for one minute that they made a conscious design decision to make it hard to program for. It strikes me as more of a way to spin it as a positive point if the difficulty of programming for it is raised as a problem.

[Terjyn]

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" Kaz claims, "it means the hardware has a lot more to offer".

The last part of the sentence is the key. If it was made hard just to be hard, then it wouldn't mean the Hardware has a lot more to offer.

Japanese and English are not the same in terms of sentence phrasing. Whenever a Japanese person says anything in English(or translated to english) you can't just read it at a literal face value, and the interpreter in the first post took it at its worst-possible meaning and ran with it.

[Septimus Prime]

I think it's pretty clear now that Mr. Hirai just isn't very good at PR. I imagine he meant a lot more than what he actually said.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Septimus Prime

I think it's pretty clear now that Mr. Hirai just isn't very good at PR. I imagine he meant a lot more than what he actually said.

.

[Terjyn]

He speaks rather amazing English by this point, but I know a lot of corporate execs like him, and none of them are excellent at PR, and I'm convinced that not having English as his native language is part of why.

I can't imagine trying to be PR-suave in a different language then English.

[Simplayer]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

He speaks rather amazing English by this point, but I know a lot of corporate execs like him, and none of them are excellent at PR, and I'm convinced that not having English as his native language is part of why.

I can't imagine trying to be PR-suave in a different language then English.

You sure about that? He doesn't really have an accent when he talks.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Simplayer

You sure about that? He doesn't really have an accent when he talks.

His English is that good...

Still doesn't mean he will get the nuances enough to be PR good like a native speaker. Hirai-san is definitely a Japanese native...

[androvsky]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

It seems unlikely that SCE would hand over their Cell based solution to a non-sanctioned project...

Yeah, I know. I just hate writing compilers, let alone a dynamic recompiler (ewww), would much rather play with the graphics plugins. In fact, a binary blob that only runs legit discs would be fine as long as they document the interface with the GS plugin. And yes, I can think of good reasons why they wouldn't do it (it'd still get hacked), I guess I'm highlighting why this situation is so frustrating.

There's a C implementation of the PCSX2 emulator that could be run on the PS3 today in theory, it'll just be miserably slow. As soon as Sony opens up the RSX and there's opengl drivers for it, I'll have at it if no one else does, but I probably won't get very far.

Anyway, if there's anything positive the linux community can do to encourage Sony (if the RSX decision isn't final), let me know.

[dk3dknight]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

1. Xbox isn't broken in any way, the stupid drive they outsourced is busted wide open. The reason PS3 isn't hacked is because pirates are typically not very good hackers, but homebrewers are. On PS3 homebrewers don't need to hack the PS3 as Linux is good enough for them, and with partial RSX support being added for Linux later in the year it will get even better.

2. Too long to be a joke post...

Berfore I posted I thought about thinking the first idea more but then I thought ah what the hay..

But really im not sure how this coversation moved from a mistranslation to mod chips..

I know alot of linux people are going to be happy about the shaders.. I hear there are many petitions going on..

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by androvsky

Yeah, I know. I just hate writing compilers, let alone a dynamic recompiler (ewww), would much rather play with the graphics plugins. In fact, a binary blob that only runs legit discs would be fine as long as they document the interface with the GS plugin. And yes, I can think of good reasons why they wouldn't do it (it'd still get hacked), I guess I'm highlighting why this situation is so frustrating.

There's a C implementation of the PCSX2 emulator that could be run on the PS3 today in theory, it'll just be miserably slow. As soon as Sony opens up the RSX and there's opengl drivers for it, I'll have at it if no one else does, but I probably won't get very far.

Anyway, if there's anything positive the linux community can do to encourage Sony (if the RSX decision isn't final), let me know.

I have heard of an approval process being planned, but I don't know how far along with it they are.

Basically you apply to Sony and they make sure you aren't a pirate and they sell you a modified PS3 with custom firmware on the agreement that you won't modify it. I would imagine it is more complicated than that and it probably involves signing your life away, but I think they are serious about trying to get a community emulator running so they can purchase it.

[NutsAboutPS3]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

The last part of the sentence is the key. If it was made hard just to be hard, then it wouldn't mean the Hardware has a lot more to offer.

How I interpreted it is that if the hardware is hard to program, then it will take people years to become fully adept at writing code for it, so in the early years of the console's life, the hardware will not be fully exploited and hence will have a lot more to offer in later years (compared to what is being achieved in earlier years).

[saprano]

Ken kutaragi made a similar statment back in 2001 in the october issue of next generation magazine. and i quote

NG:Ms has created a console thats easy to develop for, built from off the shelf parts. they argue that if deveopers aren't spending as much time fighting with the system, they'll spend more time creating and balancing gameplay. do you feel this is a legitimate veiw?

KK: Let me ask you this question. if this kind of benefit is one of the advantages of xbox, why couldn't they demonstrate very nice, early titles at E3? and another question, if the system is easy to develop for, does that mean you'll get very nice titles? will you ask mr speilberg or james cameron if shooting pictures is easier using one kind of camera?


NG: yes but xbox isn't even out yet. after all, it took sonys best developers a year to get ps2 product up and-

KK: yes but more importantly, ps2 is a very, very deep system, and im confident its the right environment for creating. the creativity is based on its differences, if its easy to port to, its easy to copy from. thats not creation, and its not entertainment. i think 3DO was much, much nicer platform than xbox.

[pmac]

I'm back with a follow up about what I was referring to...First and foremost if you are not aware of the Demoscene some call it or th3 Sc3n3 "The Scene" this might be a little hard to grasp...But believe me when I tell you, Sony is fully aware of the scene.

Making it hard to develop for.
The security and technology both are tremendous factors as to why the PS3 has not been hacked. That was probably Sony's first and foremost goal when thinking about design. How/what can we make that is powerful and secure so we can get all the sales and not be victims of the hackers in 6 months.
they lost Millions if not billions over the years on the ps2 due to piracy...If you don't believe that, you should try lining up at several stores I used to frequent (long time ago, now I have all the consoles including a PS2 and they are fresh not messed with) the stores were FULL of people buying copies of games, my next door neighbor went through 1000 DVDs a month making games for it back then (sad thing was...I taught him how ).
So they went with something with a learning curve. DIFFICULT means secure.
The other Achilles heel of the PS3 has been its infuriatingly complex architecture, no one argues that...but the companies are getting better as time goes by...this is old news and most have it down pat by now. So it wouldn't surprise me if this was old news.
"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console
The fewer people that know how, the less likely you will be a victim to piracy
will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do,
Did you ever own an XBOX (the first one)? Well it has/had what is called homebrew applications. Basically a souped up version of what Sony has now for the PS3 as far as Multimedia is concerned. You could play anything on the original one as far as media was concerned. Which made games DVD's region free mp3's and any other media files pirates used back then. BECAUSE IT WAS EASY TO PROGRAM FOR. Every tom di*k and Harry fresh out of college could program in the code MS used for it.

Sorry to ramble on again, but I read that article and I saw someone telling me why the PS3 was secure for years to come, and that it was intentional.

To read into it (which I probably shouldn't)...Sony in turn would expect a slower than usual growth due to an anticipated learning curve by the gaming companies, and 08 was too soon as new technology always takes a while, but this year and the next will be better and better because more and more companies will get on board. Look at true HD TV’s they are still making their way into most homes, it is not a saturated market place by a LONG shot, it is the minority for TRUE 1080P

Let’s face it, it's only a matter of time before Sony buys everyone....OK that line was a joke dk


Paul

EDIT: OMG look how long this is...It didn’t feel like it LOL WoW sorry guys.

My post is up for debate if you will, lets face it, the article is up for interpretation, as I totally don't get why some get defensive about this article (maybe it’s just me with my unique insight to things of this nature).

[pmac]

To Maxpowers: The Linux comment is most likely true about how easy home brew will be, but Not many (very small percentage) will get into adding Linux to the PS3 (true I speculate on that last comment, as i have no proof and can not see into the future). Which still might not lead to Region free playing. I still think overall there is a different target market with the PS3, for the mature(ing) gamer. Not a lot of good Kiddie stuff on it. Good as in Kids want it, my 9yo wants Bioshock 007 etc on the PS3, but wants Mario everything for the Wii. Heh go figure.

As far as pirates not being good hackers...True but pirates belong to groups, groups hire Hackers. Its common, Linger in Shadows has a trophy dedicated to a Pirate Group. I thought it was Sonys way to make fun of the group for not being able to Mod it. but that was probably just me, I got a kick out of it.

[dk3dknight]

Originally Posted by pmac

To Maxpowers: The Linux comment is most likely true about how easy home brew will be, but Not many (very small percentage) will get into adding Linux to the PS3 (true I speculate on that last comment, as i have no proof and can not see into the future). Which still might not lead to Region free playing. I still think overall there is a different target market with the PS3, for the mature(ing) gamer. Not a lot of good Kiddie stuff on it. Good as in Kids want it, my 9yo wants Bioshock 007 etc on the PS3, but wants Mario everything for the Wii. Heh go figure.

As far as pirates not being good hackers...True but pirates belong to groups, groups hire Hackers. Its common, Linger in Shadows has a trophy dedicated to a Pirate Group. I thought it was Sonys way to make fun of the group for not being able to Mod it. but that was probably just me, I got a kick out of it.

Your connection of the demoscene, and the "The Scene" scares me...

Your words sorta make me wonder if you know what your talking about or if someone gave you too many energy drinks and you just needed to get the energy out...


Go get a glass of water and get some sleep...

[androvsky]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

I have heard of an approval process being planned, but I don't know how far along with it they are.

Basically you apply to Sony and they make sure you aren't a pirate and they sell you a modified PS3 with custom firmware on the agreement that you won't modify it. I would imagine it is more complicated than that and it probably involves signing your life away, but I think they are serious about trying to get a community emulator running so they can purchase it.

That's... odd. Working on official Sony dev equipment means not being able to talk to anybody in the legitimate homebrew or PS3 linux scene (the scene's rule, Sony's too probably). Dropping a couple grand on a debug unit based on the hopes that I can get an emulator finished before anyone else? I'm not sure if I should start a new thread about this or take it to PM, but while I want to work on the emulator as a side project, the scenario as you described would only ensure that I never touch it. Unless Sony wants to pay me while I'm working on it too, or loan out the debug units at least...

Well in the interest of staying on topic just a little bit, the real reason the PS2 and especially PS3 are difficult to develop for is that it allows Sony to provide more raw computational power for the same cost. Everything else is spin and side effects.

[pmac]

Originally Posted by dk3dknight

Your connection of the demoscene, and the "The Scene" scares me...

Your words sorta make me wonder if you know what your talking about or if someone gave you too many energy drinks and you just needed to get the energy out...


Go get a glass of water and get some sleep...

LOL Too funny.

back in the day my friend, back in the day. I never go near that stuff anymore.