BD-25 vs. BD-50???????

[djluis2k6]

Originally Posted by benricci

That's almost laughable. No it didn't, it had no effect on the format war whatsoever. The war was one of politics between studios and manufacturers - consumer preferences and disc quality had NOTHING to do with the outcome.

If you believe otherwise, you are incredibly naive.

No, but a Blu-Ray disc being able to hold up to 50GB was brought up many times during the differences of the formats. So one could argue that it had a lot to do with Blu-Ray eventually winning the format war.

[benricci]

Originally Posted by djluis2k6

No, but a Blu-Ray disc being able to hold up to 50GB was brought up many times during the differences of the formats. So one could argue that it had a lot to do with Blu-Ray eventually winning the format war.

One could actually not argue that, because they would be wrong. Yes, it was something to differentiate between HD-DVD, but it had no impact on the politics behind the format war.

Just because something was "brought up many times" by fanboys on the internet does not mean it was a determining factor at all. You want to know what won the format war? Money.

[stargazeruk]

The only thing I don't want to see is BD25 with a movie encoded in MPEG2.

Alot of movies I have which are AVC and VC1 on BD-50 with lossless audio and extras like PIP can easly fit onto a BD25 if you strip out the PIP and audio dubs and extras.

I use serenity as an example since I did a strip out since PQ wise was not much better then my HD-DVD version. The movie with the DTS-HD track on its own was closer to 20Gb so the PIP/PIP audio and other tracks were arround 10Gb. Another is wall-e I did a strip out of the extras and it would fit onto a BD25 easy. Movies I but I try this just to realy know what space it uses.

Most movies can fit on a BD25 and look fantastic if they use a good source and do a very good job encoding. That is where the problem lies though some people can't and need to use more space. I will say as well movie length is another issue and if you want therical cut and directors cut but seemless then a BD50 may be the way to go.

[Canada]

If a movie comes out on a BD 25 as opposed to a BD 50 it doesn't really matter to me as long as the picture quality is there and they have lossless audio.

One of the major reasons Blu Ray won over HD DVD was Blu Ray's superior space up to 50 gigs where HD DVD only had a max of 30 gigs. Most HD DVD's only had Dolby Digital Plus I mean look at Transformers and King Kong, when they came to Blu Ray Transformers had DD True HD and King Kong got a DTS MA track.

[benricci]

Originally Posted by Canada

One of the major reasons Blu Ray won over HD DVD was Blu Ray's superior space up to 50 gigs where HD DVD only had a max of 30 gigs.

Wrong. This had no bearing on the outcome of the format war, whatsoever. Please read my posts above and on page one.

[Canada]

Originally Posted by benricci

That's almost laughable. No it didn't, it had no effect on the format war whatsoever. The war was one of politics between studios and manufacturers - consumer preferences and disc quality had NOTHING to do with the outcome.

If you believe otherwise, you are incredibly naive.

Of course consumer preference and disc quality had somthing to do with winning the war. In fact I would say that is one of the main reasons we won the war. If the majority of consumers prefered HD DVD most on this site would have had to go out and buy an HD DVD player to enjoy our HD movie with Dolby Digital Plus on most movies I might add.

[Canada]

Originally Posted by benricci

Wrong. This had no bearing on the outcome of the format war, whatsoever. Please read my posts above and on page one.

We did

[benricci]

You are beyond naive to think disc quality, or consumer preference won the war. The studios and manufacturers decided who won the war through shifting partnerships and marketing alliances; you were merely in attendance.

The inclusion of a blu-ray drive in the PS3 along with Sony's marketing budget and power within the entertainment/electronics sector almost assured its victory, as well.

In any event, this thread was about disc size, and I think we've pretty much covered that here.

[monkeyjb1988]

In all the reviews I've read on this site, it seems all the gripes, like lossy audio and less than perfect picture, seem to be mostly on BD-25s. Plus, if you have a BD-50 to play with, you can either make the encode look really good or put in more special features (probably the biggest reason we're even using discs for home entertainment instead of plastic rectangles). I'll take a BD-50 anyday. It's bound to just be an improvement.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by benricci

That's almost laughable. No it didn't, it had no effect on the format war whatsoever. The war was one of politics between studios and manufacturers - consumer preferences and disc quality had NOTHING to do with the outcome.

If you believe otherwise, you are incredibly naive.

Listen, I did not mean to drudge up any pain or hard feelings that you might be feeling as the result being on the losing side of the format war. The format war has been over for a year now and so it's silly to keep talking about it. I only mentioned HD DVD because the disk capacity was a huge factor why it was the inferior product.

I am sure that politics and so forth had a lot to do with the outcome of the format war. And don't start talking about cost as a factor because Toshiba was taking a blood bath with every hardware sale. No one can deny that Blu-ray was the only choice for a real high definition solution for 1080P video. The BD50 disk was the reason why it was the only solution. Compare the HD DVD with the Blu-ray version of Transformers for an example of why HD DVD was a poor high definition format.

You can call me naive, but the best technology won the format war.

[benricci]

I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make, exactly - how exactly was I on a losing side? I love blu-ray, have had my player for over two years and never bought into HD-DVD.

I'm merely stating fact, that consumers didn't decide the war - studios and hardware companies did. Yes, the best technology won, I'm not arguing that either. I'm arguing that it's not the REASON it won. Do you get that?

I'm thrilled that blu-ray was the format to come out on top, but thinking it had anything to do with BD-50 is just plain naive.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by benricci

I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make, exactly - how exactly was I on a losing side? I love blu-ray, have had my player for over two years and never bought into HD-DVD.

I'm merely stating fact, that consumers didn't decide the war - studios and hardware companies did. Yes, the best technology won, I'm not arguing that either. I'm arguing that it's not the REASON it won. Do you get that?

I'm thrilled that blu-ray was the format to come out on top, but thinking it had anything to do with BD-50 is just plain naive.

Without the BD50 disk, no one would have cared about Blu-ray, that's the point. Consumers helped decide the format war too. Warner made their decision to drop HD DVD because the consumers were buying Blu-rays 2 to 1 or higher. Politics had something to do with it too. There were many factors that helped decide the format war and having the best technology, the BD50 disk, was a factor.

[benricci]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

Without the BD50 disk, no one would have cared about Blu-ray, that's the point.

Wrong.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by benricci

Wrong.

OK dude, you win. This silliness has got to stop.

[randy8118]

Here is what I dug up. It looks like Sony was initially was selling the PS3 at a $200 loss. I think Sony learned a lesson from the Beta/VHS format war. It did seem like HD DVD was winning before the PS3.

Some analysts believe that Sony's PlayStation 3 video game console played an important role in the format war, believing it acted as a catalyst for Blu-ray Disc, as the PlayStation 3 used a Blu-ray Disc drive as its primary information storage medium. They also credited Sony's more thorough and influential marketing campaign.* More recently Twentieth Century Fox has cited Blu-ray Disc's adoption of the BD+ anti-copying system as the reason they supported Blu-ray Disc over HD DVD.**

* "Blu-ray Wins — Telegraph". Telegraph (UK) (2008-02-23). Retrieved on 2008-02-23.
** Will Smale (February 19, 2008). "How the PS3 led Blu-ray's triumph". BBC News. Retrieved on 2008-02-26.

What I find most interesting is BD+ anti-copying point as it's a clear reason for studios to favor Blu-Ray over standard DVD. I've never seen anyone mention that on the DVD vs. Blu-Ray threads. (Although I have not read them all. ) Maybe when Blu-Ray becomes more saturated, the studios will stop releasing titles on DVD because of illegal copying.

[shadow72]

Originally Posted by randy8118

Here is what I dug up. It looks like Sony was initially was selling the PS3 at a $200 loss. I think Sony learned a lesson from the Beta/VHS format war. It did seem like HD DVD was winning before the PS3.

Some analysts believe that Sony's PlayStation 3 video game console played an important role in the format war, believing it acted as a catalyst for Blu-ray Disc, as the PlayStation 3 used a Blu-ray Disc drive as its primary information storage medium. They also credited Sony's more thorough and influential marketing campaign.* More recently Twentieth Century Fox has cited Blu-ray Disc's adoption of the BD+ anti-copying system as the reason they supported Blu-ray Disc over HD DVD.**

* "Blu-ray Wins — Telegraph". Telegraph (UK) (2008-02-23). Retrieved on 2008-02-23.
** Will Smale (February 19, 2008). "How the PS3 led Blu-ray's triumph". BBC News. Retrieved on 2008-02-26.

What I find most interesting is BD+ anti-copying point as it's a clear reason for studios to favor Blu-Ray over standard DVD. I've never seen anyone mention that on the DVD vs. Blu-Ray threads. (Although I have not read them all. ) Maybe when Blu-Ray becomes more saturated, the studios will stop releasing titles on DVD because of illegal copying.

A co-worker of mine who is "on the fence" about purchasing a BR player asked why there are firmware updates on BR players and DVD doesn't have them. My initial thought was, and I told him this, is because the biggest problem movie companies have is piracy of their product. So by having a firmware update, if the anti-piracy on the disk were to ever be "defeated" then a new firmware can be issued to counter the new "hack" and thus no more piracy for that release. Is what I told him in any way accurate or was my explanation dead wrong?

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by randy8118

Here is what I dug up. It looks like Sony was initially was selling the PS3 at a $200 loss. I think Sony learned a lesson from the Beta/VHS format war. It did seem like HD DVD was winning before the PS3.

Some analysts believe that Sony's PlayStation 3 video game console played an important role in the format war, believing it acted as a catalyst for Blu-ray Disc, as the PlayStation 3 used a Blu-ray Disc drive as its primary information storage medium. They also credited Sony's more thorough and influential marketing campaign.* More recently Twentieth Century Fox has cited Blu-ray Disc's adoption of the BD+ anti-copying system as the reason they supported Blu-ray Disc over HD DVD.**

* "Blu-ray Wins — Telegraph". Telegraph (UK) (2008-02-23). Retrieved on 2008-02-23.
** Will Smale (February 19, 2008). "How the PS3 led Blu-ray's triumph". BBC News. Retrieved on 2008-02-26.

What I find most interesting is BD+ anti-copying point as it's a clear reason for studios to favor Blu-Ray over standard DVD. I've never seen anyone mention that on the DVD vs. Blu-Ray threads. (Although I have not read them all. ) Maybe when Blu-Ray becomes more saturated, the studios will stop releasing titles on DVD because of illegal copying.

Good work. I agree with all that you are saying. But once again, I originally wrote "The quality of a BD50 optimized encode helped win the format war." Helped means assisted and not the sole reason why Blu-ray won. There are tons of other factors that determined the result of the format war, many we know and many we don't know about. Without the BD50 disk, Paramount would not have been able to include lossless audio with the Transformers Blu-ray disk.

But my original statement for which benricci called "laughable" and "plain naive" is a plain asinine reply. The fact is the BD50 disk is a very appealing component of the Blu-ray specification and was a factor in helping win the format war. If I were the BDA, I would make it a requirement that all studios encode their movies for BD50 disk and include lossless audio (of course).

[shadow72]

Just imagine if/when they start to mass produce Pioneer's 400 GB BR. Ahhh....just think of the possiblities.

[stargazeruk]

As far as I am aware Toshiba at first was winning the war since they had a head start. They had a complete spec which was ready to go for the end user. HD-DVD had HDi which I think was better then what blu-ray uses and has less issues. PIP as well and region free. Well every feature of a profile 2 player.

The first generation did have some issues with playback of a movie but that was resolved in a firmware update. Most firmware updates for HD-DVD just added did some bug fixes for some users or add some new features but was not needed for movies unlike blu-ray which needed firmware updates just to play newer movies.

At the time the first players were 1080i but as far as I am aware there were not many 1080p TVs at the time most were 1080i. Most important of all the supporting studios were doing a much better job for putting great PQ onto HD-DVD compaired to the blu-ray camp (first edition of fifth element anyone which lead to major complaints and sony wanting to make up since it was loosing the war).

Granted thethe max bitrate and disk space for HD-DVD was a limited factor and most titles lacked lossless sound it still was lot better then what was offered on DVD.

Blu-ray only won becasue of the PS3 which out sold every stand alone player.

If microsoft had introduced HD-DVD drive into the 360 as well as HDMI it may of gone in HD-DVDs favor since it had a big head start and more users then the PS3.

Standalones prices for blu-ray were sky high as well at first since they realy wanted to get very gready as well as no where near complete and were rushed out to get compeating. If sony did not introduce blu-ray into the PS3 then blu-ray would of lost since HD-DVD standalones out sold blu-ray standalones becasue of the cheaper price.

HD-DVD did have the advantage to get more titles out since most dvd plants just needed retrofitting compaired to blu-ray that had new plants.

Because of the PS3 blu-ray titles sold more but the attach rate for HD-DVD was higher. But warner choose those the format that sold more rather then the format which had a higher attach ratio which ended this war.

I only backed HD-DVD at first because from my view:
HD-DVD overall was more complete value for money and the disks were slightly cheaper being sold. Over time it was less hassle and did not need firmware updates to play the disks. Originally most companies backing blu-ray was only for gread. High licence fees. Very High player costs as well as the players were not profile 2 and high movie costs. Some of blu-ray backing studios had no intention of deliver good quality in the first place (terminator, fifth element) and wanted to do what they did with DVD users, release as many editions as possible offering better quality as they went along. If it was not for HD-DVD in my view we would not have cheap player prices by now.

My opinion is the compertition was good for us overall while it lasted. One thing I liked about it as well was toshiba paied for Star Trek TOS to be remastered which paramount would of never done so bonus for when that shows up on blu-ray.

One side affect of the war I liked was the many 3 for 2 sales.

[coolmilo]

Originally Posted by stargazeruk

One side affect of the war I liked was the many 3 for 2 sales.

If you like the 3 for 2 sales, you would have really liked the Blu-ray BOGO that happened quite often during the format wars. That was really nice!!!