My power cord adventure

[Blu-Raider]

PT Barnum was a genius.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Blu-Raider

PT Barnum was a genius.

Oh ye of so little faith, you may wish to look through some of the 300 or so discussions about Power Cords on Audiogon alone. And I do remember who you are, your background and past conversations about this.

Rich

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by mdabb

I am a very skeptical person yet I keep an open mind as a "LOT" of people do say they hear a difference whether it be for better or worse.

I have done some swapping of IC's and speaker cables and do notice that these cables can influence sound, again for better or worse. For example, I have a pair of Nordost Red Dawn IC's that I don't use because I feel the impacted my system in a negative way (to me). The sound is lacking or more sterile, not much but enough to where they are currently not in use. Perhaps I need to let them stay a while longer and see if that changes. Could be they don't blend well with my gear, etc....

It's kind of hard for me to tell if my upgraded PC's are having an influence on sound as I am using some tube gear and since tubes add that special charm to the sound. Right now I am experiencing some harshness in some female vocals and I need to swap some tubes to try and eliminate this. I just can't locate the ones I would like to have for my CDP from a reputable supplier. Hopefully being patient will pay off and then I can continue upgrading the rest of my PC's.

With DC power sources, you only have to worry about the resistance of a conductor. Resistance is caused by collision of electrons and ions in a conductor and convert part of the electrical energy to heat. In other words, resistance is the opposition to electric current. Different materials have different resistances. Pure resistance does not change with frequency.

AC current, however, oscillates as a sine wave so the sign is always changing. This means that other factors such as inductance and capacitance must be considered. Inductance is the magnetic field that is created when current flows through an object. Capacitance is the ability of an object to hold an electrical charge.

With AC current, a cable is affected by three electrical properties: Resistance, Inductance, and Capacitance. Most cables are made out of copper. A few are made out of silver. Silver and copper have the lowest resistance and the highest conductivity out of all the metals. In addition, thickness of the wires (lower gauge number) reduces resistance.

Inductance is the property of the signal in one conductor inducing current in another nearby conductor, and inhibiting current flow in the opposite direction. In transformers, this property is useful. Cables normally have two leads, each carrying current in opposite direction. High inductance causes flow of current in one lead to interfere with the flow in the other lead.

Capacitance occurs by the insulator around the conductor. In amplifiers, capacitance is a desirable property. In cables, some of the electrons passing through the cable is transferred to the insulator and stored as energy. When they are released back into the conductor, it will cause a deteriorationin of the sound quality.

The type of insulator has a direct effect on capacitance. Most insulator are PVC, Polyethylene, Polypropylene, and Teflon. Teflon is the best, but it is a difficult material to work with. That is one reason why cables that use Teflon are normally more expensive.

Some amplifiers are more sensitive to the load impedance of the speaker wires. The reason is because the higher the output impedance of the amplifier, the more likely capacitance and inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality. Tube amplifiers are more sensitive to cables than solid state amplifiers because they have higher output impedances.

[Gremal]

mdabb,

Good clean power lets your gear do what it was designed to do, while dirty power can constrict the sound and hurt the tonal openness. This is especially true in complex passages or large-ensemble music. I don't want to tell you what improvements you will hear (maybe immense, maybe nothing--that's for you to discover) but I notice better soundstaging where the speakers really disappear and greater microdetail.

I don't think you can solve distortion in the midrange by tube rolling. That sounds like a different problem.

For those who are skeptical about power cords and speaker cable having an impact, consider that power is the food that all your gear eats. If you're not concerned with what you feed your gear, how do you know it is performing its best? Likewise, EVERYTHING in the signal path has a tremendous influence on the overall sound of a system. And when I say everything, I mean everything--each capacitor, every resistor, all connectors, etc. etc. Speaker cables are the longest components the signal travels through.

So one can argue that power components and speaker cable are critically important to your system--as important as any other component, including your speakers and amplification.

That is the horror and the beauty of this hobby. Everything feeding and everything in the way of the signal is incredibly important and has an impact on the sound. My experience has certainly proven that to me.

[mdabb]

Big D , as always thanks for the info. I have done quite a bit of researching into inductance, capacitance, skin effect, etc............. when it comes to IC's. I do my best to sort through all the info and make decisions on what will serve my gear best.

PC's tend to be a bit of a question mark for me and I try to look to those who are more experienced with them. Have you ever had the fortune or misfortune of experimenting with more expensive or custom PC's ??? Would you care to share an experience or so.

As Gremal stated, he has previously tested and reviewed power cords and was wondering how exactly a person approaches this subject. How does one compare or know what to listen for ??? Are there some absolute or basic ways of knowing what to look for ??? On some things I have had to train myself, like when judging IC's or tubes. Things that I could distinguish right away or how to spot the subtle effects. So far tubes for the most part have been easier to distinguish for me.

I'm just trying to figure some of these things out and this is where experience comes into play. Looking for the trained ear !!! I'm sure experience is key.

Are there some tell tale signs ??? Rich has stated what he listens for, does anyone care to add to this or share as well ???

Edit: some of my curiosity may have been answered while I was thinking and typing........ I got to read what was posted first.

[Gremal]

Here's a couple paragraphs from my article in Positive Feedback June/July 2002 issue.

To reap the full benefits of the improvements within the Avatar and SCD-1, I knew it would be necessary to address the electric current flowing to each of them. I live in a building where the condo association has strict rules about altering the wiring of the individual apartments, but this did not stop me from addressing power once it left my wall. I had already schooled myself on the audible effects of the PS Audio Power Plants, having used a P300 initially and then upgrading to a P600 (after realizing my gear was placing too much of a burden on the lower-powered unit). But the real epiphany about power came when I had a chance to compare several different cords, including the PS Audio Lab Cable, the Mapleshade Double Helix, John Garland’s latest cord, and the Custom Power Cord Company’s Model 11. Incredible differences resulted from swapping these cords in, ranging from slight alterations in imaging and pacing to gross changes in system volume and tone!

Of these cords, the Garland won, providing a liquid quality to the music and improved pacing over the runner up, the Lab Cable cord. This was distressing to me, as I owned the Lab Cable and found the quality of the Garland a significant improvement. Meanwhile, other cords were rumored to be ideal with the SCD-1. I wanted a cord that would not hinder my amp or front end in any way. After a great deal of hand wringing and research, I decided on the Electraglide Fatman, said to go the extra mile in revealing the true sound of components. The cords feature extraordinary attention to detail and hand-assembly by Electraglide owner Scott Hall, who uses "huge silver ribbons" in the design.

[liquidice]

I've just got to say I love kicking back and reading about all this stuff, I truly find it educational! One thing comes to mind though that I read on another post somewhere: you can only do so much with the power that is coming into your house. Basically meaning, how good is the power coming to your outlet from the power cables maybe running many miles to your home from the plant? How is that power being produced? Gremal, your profile says your location is Silicon Valley, if that is true, a lot of your power may be solar or wind produced, in which case more clean to deal with? I really don't know, I'm just throwing questions around, because I always love getting inputs from all the knowledgeable people on this site. Party on

[mdabb]

Gremal,

Thanks for sharing............

I am hoping a little tube rolling will help better my current problem. It seems to only effect certain frequency or CD's which never sounded harsh before. Right now I am only using the stock 5687's in my CDP but I did have a better older British made Mullard GZ34 on hand to use in the CDP's power supply. Many people report the stock 5687's sound harsh to them and I did benefit from swapping the stock 5AR4/GZ34 and 6H30's in my pre with a NOS metal base philips miniwatt GZ34 and a matched pair of NOS Reflektor 6H30 DR's. It was easy to hear the big improvement.

My pre was immediately more pleasurable once I rolled the stock for the better tubes. When my tubes warm up they become much more alive and honest. Every time I listen to it I am still thrilled about what I get to experience. It's odd how much music makes me happy and more laid back.

I hope I can one day soon find a beautiful matched pair of NOS Bendix Redbank 6900's for my CDP. For now I am looking into a few other worthwhile options that are more readily available and less rare.

Worth a try anyhow. Not sure what else to do other than blaming it on the recording.

[phansson]

Gremal, now we know why you have your center channel sitting on the floor. It is to hide that HUGE power cable!

[Gremal]

Haha...No, the center is designed by B&W to be on the floor (it throws a high image). My UKII cord is plugged into the VAC power supply which is just to the right of my rack. When I get back my second Electraglide cord, I will need to decide whether to use it with my Classe Omega SACD-2 or on my 5-channel amp.

[JimShaw]

Here is an interesting article I found regarding Electra Glide Fatman 2000

http://www.stereotimes.com/cables090201.shtml




.

[sandman6662]

We'll I go and do it, I know it's a bad idea..but what the heck...LOL..
As for my self I want to do a nice job at putting together my final last system ever, So I want good refference cables and EQ. & Speakers.

EQ== Marantz
Speakers== Klipsch
Cables== Monster
Power center==Monster

Now one of the last things I will be doing is adding new IEC Power cords also . I'm not rich , okay but still not crazy enough to spend a crazy amount of Money on them ,as fo me Monster cable is good enough , not cheap & not really expensive,, affordable for the middleclass ...so I was going to go with the Monster = 300 series power cords, these are $100.00 each , I feel thats not to bad , & actually I found them on Amazon for $64.00 each ,, So like I said I'm alittle crazy . But I'm also not stupid rich for cables in the $500& Up range..LOL..

My tweeks...

Monster Z2R-Refference series Speaker cables / Master lock Pins/ Banana Plugs,,----Now I did hear the difference when I hook these up..

Monster--ZBASS100 -- Subwoofer cable,,,

Monster--Z200D--Digital Coax Cable

Monster--HDMI-1000D--Cables

Monster --HTRC--1600-- power center-- Upgrading to the HTS-3600MKII

Got all of this way below MSRP...SO I feel I added alot to my system this way , kept it sane. and way below the cost of one of those Extended Warrenty deal from a store,,,LOL,,

[Blu-Raider]

If you folks honestly believe spending five times more for a HT power cord than your builder spent for your entire electrical infrastructure feeding it will somehow bring you to the promised land, then there's not much to add.

I'm sure the 12/2 NM Romex in your wall connected to the $1.00 Leviton duplex receptacle will be thrilled.

[Blaumann]

In the 90's i bought a Gryphon S100 power-amp and tested a NBS PC (~ 1.000 Deutsche Mark/piece at the time) with it. It completely changed the sound character of the amp. The improvement was significant and gave the amp a distinctively more "analog" sound, so i bought the cable.

Imo: yes PC can have an effect. However today i would probably question what exactly is different and what exactly is "improved". Also i might look for other solutions that offer me this same improvement, but maybe for a fraction of the price. My main focus has shifted towards video reproduction these days though, with audio (music) reproduction not being as (obsessively) important to me as it used to be.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by Blu-Raider

If you folks honestly believe spending five times more for a HT power cord than your builder spent for your entire electrical infrastructure feeding it will somehow bring you to the promised land, then there's not much to add.

I'm sure the 12/2 NM Romex in your wall connected to the $1.00 Leviton duplex receptacle will be thrilled.

I know that you are an Electrical Engineer and work with computers. But, have you stopped to consider that a Power Cord may in-fact have an interaction with the sound reproduction of an audio component? Perhaps you have not taken the time to listen or have not developed the listening skills to perceive the difference.

Rich

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by Gremal

mdabb,

Good clean power lets your gear do what it was designed to do, while dirty power can constrict the sound and hurt the tonal openness. This is especially true in complex passages or large-ensemble music. I don't want to tell you what improvements you will hear (maybe immense, maybe nothing--that's for you to discover) but I notice better soundstaging where the speakers really disappear and greater microdetail.

I don't think you can solve distortion in the midrange by tube rolling. That sounds like a different problem.

For those who are skeptical about power cords and speaker cable having an impact, consider that power is the food that all your gear eats. If you're not concerned with what you feed your gear, how do you know it is performing its best? Likewise, EVERYTHING in the signal path has a tremendous influence on the overall sound of a system. And when I say everything, I mean everything--each capacitor, every resistor, all connectors, etc. etc. Speaker cables are the longest components the signal travels through.

So one can argue that power components and speaker cable are critically important to your system--as important as any other component, including your speakers and amplification.

That is the horror and the beauty of this hobby. Everything feeding and everything in the way of the signal is incredibly important and has an impact on the sound. My experience has certainly proven that to me.

Let me ask you this (and I'm not trying to start or win an argument, I'm more interested in it from a curiosity sake): When you get to the level where you're looking at power cords and all the little details in providing you the best sound available, do you stop at the wall? Do you have an electrician come in and rewire the house? Do you look at a home-sized solution to voltage regulation and power management?

Where do you end in the chain? Where is it too much work or money for too little gain?


Just as a matter of course, I own a 90 year-old home. Some of the wiring has not been updated for many years. Up in the attic is even knob and tube wiring. If you owned such a home, would you rewire the entire place, or at least the receptacles you'll be using with your HT/stereo gear?

[mdabb]

Originally Posted by Blu-Raider

If you folks honestly believe spending five times more for a HT power cord than your builder spent for your entire electrical infrastructure feeding it will somehow bring you to the promised land, then there's not much to add.

I'm sure the 12/2 NM Romex in your wall connected to the $1.00 Leviton duplex receptacle will be thrilled.

Now I can relate to where you are coming from but you have to admit you are doing it in a belittling way. Is there any proof you can provide that a power cord can't influence the sound of your gear ???

Is it only PC's or is it other cables ??? Speaker cables and IC's can change the characteristics of sound and since it's only electrical current flowing through them, it could be possible that the design or material that makes up a PC can change the sound of what you are hearing for better or worse. Some PC's are said to have filtering properties reducing DC feedback and a host of other reasons why a particular cable can influence sound.

I'm sure most people who do believe in this have no problem with you adding your thoughts, but what can you add politely to the discussion to support it ??? I can't make a claim either way because I haven't enough experience with them but what is your experience with these power cords and how can you claim that PC's can't influence the sound on more sensitive equipment ???

It's about taking what you have and trying to make it better or get the most out of it, and the only way to do this is by experimenting. Perhaps you should visit some high-end shops and see if they can reaffirm your beliefs or maybe they can even provide evidence PC's can ultimately change what you are hearing.

[naturephoto1]

Originally Posted by aramis109

Let me ask you this (and I'm not trying to start or win an argument, I'm more interested in it from a curiosity sake): When you get to the level where you're looking at power cords and all the little details in providing you the best sound available, do you stop at the wall? Do you have an electrician come in and rewire the house? Do you look at a home-sized solution to voltage regulation and power management?

Where do you end in the chain? Where is it too much work or money for too little gain?


Just as a matter of course, I own a 90 year-old home. Some of the wiring has not been updated for many years. Up in the attic is even knob and tube wiring. If you owned such a home, would you rewire the entire place, or at least the receptacles you'll be using with your HT/stereo gear?

This is part of the reason that many of us with more expensive audio and Home Theater systems use and rely on Power Conditioning units that are substantially more advanced and more expensive than most at Blu-ray.com would consider using. These units help to clean up the "dirty and contaminated" AC coming in through the wall. This is also, partially why when we can, we will run dedicated 20 amp lines to allow us to use high powered amps and to keep these circuits separate from those used throughout the house.

Rich

[Johnny Vinyl]

I have always been a big proponant of introducing better-quality speaker cabling/wire into the systems I've owned over the years, and I see no reason (for all the naysayers out there) to beleive that changing out Power Cords wouldn't be an improvement. I'm not saying one should consider a $3,000 PC, but if you are...then more power (or better power ...pardon the pun) to you.

This is a hobby folks and people will make the changes (call them tweaks if you like) they deem important to them. I'm all for that. In fact, I wish I had a lot more disposible income to do all of the things I want to accomplish with this fascination for improved sound and video.

If you're one of those who cannot discern an audible difference in whatever tweak is applied...no problem. However, that does not mean its hogwash or a waste of time and money, because many more will hear what you are not.

John

[Gremal]

A couple quick thoughts. While it is true that your grid and the circuits in your house all play a role, I have seen analyses showing that the closer the electricity gets to your gear, the more important it is to deal with the problem. In other words, there is evidence that power cords will have a greater impact than putting your HT on a new circuit.

In regards to Aramis' questions:

Let me ask you this (and I'm not trying to start or win an argument, I'm more interested in it from a curiosity sake): When you get to the level where you're looking at power cords and all the little details in providing you the best sound available, do you stop at the wall? Do you have an electrician come in and rewire the house? Do you look at a home-sized solution to voltage regulation and power management?

See above regarding the issue of cords and wiring farther from components. I am addressing the components for now because I do not have the coin to address my house. If I deal with the room it is just a waste of money until I can remodel. The room will eventually be knocked down along with all but one wall of my house.

Where do you end in the chain? Where is it too much work or money for too little gain?

Obviously that is different for each individual and no one can really tell anyone else where the diminishing returns start and stop.

Just as a matter of course, I own a 90 year-old home. Some of the wiring has not been updated for many years. Up in the attic is even knob and tube wiring. If you owned such a home, would you rewire the entire place, or at least the receptacles you'll be using with your HT/stereo gear?

I'm in a 90-yr old home too. I plan to knock it down, as I said, and dedicate an adjoining part of a master bedroom for my system, on its own circuit. But that is many years away. For now I am trying to optimize the system I have in the space that I have. Rome wasn't built in a day.