is it true a 720p projector can beat 1080p?

[Anthony P]

Hm.. well the most i'd ever dish out for a projector is 3000 dollars. Would a 720p ever beat 1080p at that price range?

There was a time when 1080p only had some niche markets, but now there is a whole slew of choices in every market and in my opinion unless you are looking for very cheap and used (which I never look at so I have no idea how 1080p is in it) going 1080p is the only choice.

as for buying a new projector, there is CES in Jan and CEDIA in Sept which are shows that demonstrate new products. Cedia tends to be the more interesting one especially for stuff like projectors. Note also that display tech advances very rapidly, so assume all info is always out of date and in that way a lot of research way before you are ready to buy is useless.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by jibucha

Hello

This is so simple; 1080p is without exception better in every regard than 720p.

Of course, other factors can confuse things, but why confuse things?

Thank You

Another ridiculous post with absolutely NO explanation/facts behind it (but then you have a history of doing this, don't you?). As has been stated numerous times in this and many other threads, resolution is NOT the deciding factor in determining the "best" picture. 1080p can only be said to be a higher resolution than 720p. That's all. Native contrast ratio, color accuracy and motion resolution have FAR more impact on picture quality than native resolution. As an example (one of many) read this article on a 2008 HDTV shoot-out where the clear winner was a 768p Pioneer plasma over numerous other 1080p sets.

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

[Anthony P]

As has been stated numerous times in this and many other threads, resolution is NOT the deciding factor in determining the "best" picture. 1080p can only be said to be a higher resolution than 720p. That's all. Native contrast ratio, color accuracy and motion resolution have FAR more impact on picture quality than native resolution.

this is a load of garbage. Yes it is not the only (first would be does it work.) but it is the most important once the min criteria are met. All projectors tend to be colour accurate enough, and colour accuracy is the least important which is why NTSC used a lot more bandwidth for B&W (luminosity) then colour and now we use 4:2:0 instead of 4:4:4. But for guys like you somehow it makes sense to believe that a 720 projector will somehow magically have better colour accuracy then its 1080p counterpart. Why not just calibrate that 1080p projector and have both?

as for the link, are you serious? you are using a shout out of small TVs from a piece of trash publication who's only reason for existence is to push what ever they are paid to push more. To make a point about projectors?

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

this is a load of garbage. Yes it is not the only (first would be does it work.) but it is the most important once the min criteria are met. All projectors tend to be colour accurate enough, and colour accuracy is the least important which is why NTSC used a lot more bandwidth for B&W (luminosity) then colour and now we use 4:2:0 instead of 4:4:4. But for guys like you somehow it makes sense to believe that a 720 projector will somehow magically have better colour accuracy then its 1080p counterpart. Why not just calibrate that 1080p projector and have both?

as for the link, are you serious? you are using a shout out of small TVs from a piece of trash publication who's only reason for existence is to push what ever they are paid to push more. To make a point about projectors?

Calm down, dude, and read my reply once again. No need for you to burst a blood vessel over this, or to get personal. My response was to the GENERAL statement that 1080p will ALWAYS be better than 720p, which is simply NOT true. It was NOT directed specifically at projectors, but as was posted by the "experts" earlier, there are many high-quality 720p projectors that will give you a better picture than some 1080p projectors. Care to take your agressions out on, say, Brain Sturgeon or Beta Man? They both said the same thing. Sheesh....

As for your comment on the validity of the shoot-out article, I believe there are many experts on this site who would agree that the 768p Pioneer Kuro will blow MOST 1080p LCDs and plasmas out of the water.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

this is a load of garbage. Yes it is not the only (first would be does it work.) but it is the most important once the min criteria are met.

Careful as to what you term as garbage and what you state as fact. The resolution of the FP's imaging panel/chip IS certainly important, given the doubling of the pixel count from 720p (1280x720) to 1080p (1920x1080), but it is not a given that it is the most important aspect of any particular projector's imaging performance. What exactly do you mean by "min criteria"? What about the imaging technology involved? What about the video processing section of the unit? What about the light engine? or lens quality? or the uniformity of the imaging panel/chip(s)? or convergence of the chips in multi-chip units? etc. etc. There are many factors involved in the quality of the image a PJ throws, and just simply stating a rule that 1080p>720p in the front projector world is a mistake.

Another factor that has not been clearly considered here is the viewer's seating position. Many folks out there do not sit at a distance that would allow them to fully resolve a 1080p image. To these folks, a 720p panel/chip or a 1080p panel/chip in the exact same projector would not make a difference. They would produce an equivalent image in their eyes.

At closer seating distances where the pixel structure becomes more apparent, the 1080p will shine compared to the 720p as SDE comes more into play.

Would the image from a 720p 3 chip DLP unit like an Infocus 777 or a Sim2 C3X be categorically worse than the image from a 1080p LCD unit like an Epson 1080UB or a Panasonic AE2k? No. Definitely not. But, these are very different price brackets. As I stated previously, if all other things are held equal, then yes, a 1080p PJ will best its 720p counterpart, assuming the viewer is seated at the right distance. But projectors are not engineered/constructed this way. There are always differences aside from just the pixel density of their imaging panel(s).

All projectors tend to be colour accurate enough, and colour accuracy is the least important which is why NTSC used a lot more bandwidth for B&W (luminosity) then colour and now we use 4:2:0 instead of 4:4:4. But for guys like you somehow it makes sense to believe that a 720 projector will somehow magically have better colour accuracy then its 1080p counterpart. Why not just calibrate that 1080p projector and have both?

What do you mean by "colour accurate enough"? You mean for the average consumer out there? Most of whom really don't really care for colour accuracy as long as the image looks reasonably good to their eyes. Not that there's anything wrong with this; but on the contrary, most front projectors out there are not color accurate. The ability for a front projector to achieve a perfect Rec. 709 gamut is prized, and there are not many that can do this perfectly. One of the main knocks against one of the most popular FP lines out there, the JVC RS series, is that the color gamut is so oversaturated in green and red, and it cannot be corrected without an outboard VP like the Radiance. The new RS-20's and -10's do finally address them with a CMS, but these still cannot be dialed in perfectly, although significantly better than the RS-1/2 which did not have a CMS. Sure, humans are more sensitive to luma than chroma, but that doesn't mean that color accuracy isn't important. Many FP viewers state that once you have seen accurate color, inaccurate colors tend to bother you much more.

As you allude to, color accuracy is not an issue related to pixel density-- both 720p and 1080p FP's can be color accurate (or inaccurate) depending on projector design and technology. But, let's say we end up comparing a color accurate 720p projector versus a color inaccurate 1080p projector-- what image would be better then?

as for the link, are you serious? you are using a shout out of small TVs from a piece of trash publication who's only reason for existence is to push what ever they are paid to push more. To make a point about projectors?

Don't know anything about that publication as I don't read it. But one of the judges in that article was Tom J. Norton, who I am familiar with from his reviews at UltimateAVmag, and I know he is a very well respected reviewer. Do you know for a fact that they were pushing the Kuro over the rest? They are not the only reviewers in the world to think that the Kuro's are the finest sets out there, regardless of the resolution of their smaller offerings. Largely because of their color accuracy and excellent black levels. I think that is what Ric was getting at in making that reference.

Either way, the OP asked "Is is true a 720p projector can beat 1080p", and the answer is yes; but you will be comparing apples to oranges as the 720p projector will likely be engineered better with higher end elements compared to the 1080p. This doesn't mean that the 1080p PJ that is being compared is a cheap or broken POS, it just means that the 720p is a "better" projector.

If you are talking about spending $3k for a projector, then yes, a 1080p projector in that range will typically outperform a 720p PJ in that same range, assuming seating distances are correct to fully resolve the resolution. But, I don't think this is what the OP was getting at in his question.

Bottom line: there are a number of high quality 720p FP's out there that will do justice to some very fine theaters and better fit some people's budget. Just because it's 720p doesn't mean it's an outdated POS. Spend some time viewing the image and let your eyes do the "talking".

Hope this rambling made some sense...

[Anthony P]

What exactly do you mean by "min criteria"?

there always has to be some min criteria. Like my previous post, if you want a 20' or 30' image you should not be looking at a <1000 lumen projector, it does not have the brightness required for the job. You should not compare calibrated to none calibrated, broken to working properly....

are many factors involved in the quality of the image a PJ throws

agree

As I stated previously, if all other things are held equal, then yes, a 1080p PJ will best its 720p counterpart, .....

you reraly don't get it.

did you read my other post? https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=20 from what you replied obviously not.


1080p is not only better because of pixel density. It is better for many rerasons

1) pixel density (might as well get this one out there first)
2) spacing between pixels (i.e. grid lines/ SDE)
3) newer tech vs older decrepit tech (you talked about Sim2 C3X but the newer model is 1080p, if you like their product and that line then why have a projector that is a few years old when you can get the newer one with all newer tech inside)
4) processing vs 1:1 mapping. (i.e. your BD disk has 1080p info on it, to show it on a 720p you must kill and destroy some (more then 1/2) of the detail in the shot

You talked about light path and lenses and processing and all that, I am guessing you know that pixel stands for picture element and describes the smallest item of information of the pic. now a 720p has less then 1/2 the resolution of a 1080p projector and what is on the disk. Let's say that the disk has info that two consecutive pixels in 1080p need to be different (i.e. for an easy example one is white and one is black) since 720p has less then 1/2 the resolution those two need to be combined (it has 1/2 the resolution it happens for around 1/2 the pixels of the 1080p image, it is not as if this scenario would be rare or something.) can you explain how due to optics or colour accuracy or what ever other mumbo jumbo black magic you believe that the fancy 720p projector can do that I will get a more accurate representation of those two pixels from a 720p projector then any none mis working 1080p projector?

What do you mean by "colour accurate enough"? You mean for the average consumer out there?

no, what I mean is that colour and accuracy are oxymorons. Our (human) eyes are not as good as we would like to think when it comes to colour. So visualy colour accuracy is not that important (but I still beleive in ISF calibration since the human eye should be the limiting factor)
I am sure we have all seen these before


blocks A and B are the same shade


there are only three colours, not 4


the centre of each cross is the same colour

colour (like size) is determined much more by its surroundings then some chart of absolutes. Which is funny when some guys talk about colour accuracy as being the more important especially when you also consider that you don't have pixel accuracy so colour accuracy is impossible (i.e. there will be areas where the colour is not what it should be because the pixel info is wrong to begin with).

But, let's say we end up comparing a color accurate 720p projector versus a color inaccurate 1080p projector-- what image would be better then?

all else equal, and unless you are talking about a simple monochromatic pic, the 1080p, sooner or later (in the pic) the 720p will need to kill borderline pixel info and those should not be slightly off (like faulty colour accuracy) but completely off.

Either way, the OP asked "Is is true a 720p projector can beat 1080p"

I know, and I answer the question in my first post

Bottom line: there are a number of high quality 720p FP's out there that will do justice to some very fine theaters and better fit some people's budget. Just because it's 720p doesn't mean it's an outdated POS. Spend some time viewing the image and let your eyes do the "talking".

actually that is exactly what it means. Projector tech moves way too fast, yes a 20k 720p will most likely have some benefits and features over a 2k 1080p but if you have that 20k why not spend it on a 1080p projector and why compare it to the 2k 1080p and not the 20k 1080p. Someone would either need a very restricted budget, a specific device for a particular job where no 1080p projector exists today or to be stupid and a poser (if he goes high end) to get a 720p projector. Like I said before pretty much in every market there are 1080p projectors that can do the job, you are looking for high end, there are 1080p projectors in the high end, you want bright for big screen there are 1080p projectors that fit those criteria, you want under 2k$ there are 1080p projectors in that price category.... The only reason someone would get a high end 720p projector is that they want to pretend they care ("look I have the expensive brand...") but that they are posers and don't want to spend what it takes to get the quality they are pretending they care about ("....but I bought a used 3 year old one for cheap").

[Anthony P]

Care to take your agressions out on, say, Brain Sturgeon or Beta Man?

no aggression, just tired of reading BS good enough from people that don't know anything.

as for Brain Sturgeon, my guess is that we agree a lot more then disagree on this topic and often he does seem to be a smart guy who has some idea what he is talking about. As for Beta man, that is a totally different story and I will leave it at that.

As for why reply to you, that was because you replied after I did and included a useless link (not on topic) to a useless publication (GIGO). You like living in a 720p world thinking that it is the ultimate viewing experience, then go one, no one is stopping you. But when you try to mislead others with bad links then people need to speak up before this place becomes like AVS where 90% is BS because the guy got convinced nothing matters and so his 32” 720p visio TV is the ultimate viewing experience and anything else is just a waste of money.

[daniel56]

hey dude,

resolution does matter. after all why do we watch movies or TV.
if resolution made no sense.
trust me....believe urself only.

[PS3+HDDVD OWNER]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

no aggression, just tired of reading BS good enough from people that don't know anything.

as for Brain Sturgeon, my guess is that we agree a lot more then disagree on this topic and often he does seem to be a smart guy who has some idea what he is talking about. As for Beta man, that is a totally different story and I will leave it at that.

As for why reply to you, that was because you replied after I did and included a useless link (not on topic) to a useless publication (GIGO). You like living in a 720p world thinking that it is the ultimate viewing experience, then go one, no one is stopping you. But when you try to mislead others with bad links then people need to speak up before this place becomes like AVS where 90% is BS because the guy got convinced nothing matters and so his 32” 720p visio TV is the ultimate viewing experience and anything else is just a waste of money.

The fact that you come in here and post your opinion is fine, but when you start personally attacking well respected board memebers that is a different story. I can assure you Brian Sturgeon, Beta Man, and Ricshoe are EXTREMELY smart guys and when they offer advice people listen extra carefully. To attack any of those members is insane.

I'd take Brian Sturgeon's advice WAY ahead of yours....Have you seen his home theater? The man knows what he's doing and what he's talking about. That's the bottom line there. Nobody here is claiming that "720P is the ultimate viewing experience." There has been thread after thread dedicated to debating this issue, and it always comes to the same result. THERE ARE 720P PROJECTORS/HDTV'S THAT OUTPERFORM 1080P SETS. You are attempting to challenge a well known fact. Good luck.

[Anthony P]

I was asked my opinion if you don't care to read it, skip my post.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by PS3+HDDVD OWNER

THERE ARE 720P PROJECTORS/HDTV'S THAT OUTPERFORM 1080P SETS.

Correct. But at how big a price difference? From what I've personally experienced, the price difference is so big that they are not within the same range - think US$3000 to US$5000 of DIFFERENCE minimum. This is a never ending question precisely because it has a caveat: price range. Nobody should ignore this factor when making such a claim, just like the fact that not all 35mm projector setup in cinemas can give the same picture quality.

So lets include the price range factor the next time we have these kinds of discussion.


fuad

[supersix4]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

....Don't know anything about that publication as I don't read it. But one of the judges in that article was Tom J. Norton, who I am familiar with from his reviews at UltimateAVmag, and I know he is a very well respected reviewer. Do you know for a fact that they were pushing the Kuro over the rest? They are not the only reviewers in the world to think that the Kuro's are the finest sets out there, regardless of the resolution of their smaller offerings. Largely because of their color accuracy and excellent black levels. I think that is what Ric was getting at in making that reference.

Either way, the OP asked "Is is true a 720p projector can beat 1080p", and the answer is yes; but you will be comparing apples to oranges as the 720p projector will likely be engineered better with higher end elements compared to the 1080p. This doesn't mean that the 1080p PJ that is being compared is a cheap or broken POS, it just means that the 720p is a "better" projector.

If you are talking about spending $3k for a projector, then yes, a 1080p projector in that range will typically outperform a 720p PJ in that same range, assuming seating distances are correct to fully resolve the resolution. But, I don't think this is what the OP was getting at in his question.

Bottom line: there are a number of high quality 720p FP's out there that will do justice to some very fine theaters and better fit some people's budget. Just because it's 720p doesn't mean it's an outdated POS. Spend some time viewing the image and let your eyes do the "talking".

Hope this rambling made some sense...

+1 to that, I will go to brain for all my projector needs

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

there always has to be some min criteria. Like my previous post, if you want a 20' or 30' image you should not be looking at a <1000 lumen projector, it does not have the brightness required for the job. You should not compare calibrated to none calibrated, broken to working properly....

Okay. Let's take the extremes out of the equation. The majority of people aren't considering 20-30' screens in their homes. Normal screen sizes (30-35 ft²). Reasonable normalized lumens of ≤1000 or so. Both calibrated, not broken. Under these conditions, there are still setups where a 720p projector will produce a better image than a 1080p projector, despite the higher pixel density and reduced SDE. Again, I'm not talking about comparing a 720p panel versus a 1080p panel in otherwise identical projectors (in which case 1080p is better assuming correct seating distances). I'm talking about comparing real world projectors with other engineering differences besides their pixel density.

you reraly don't get it.

did you read my other post? https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=20 from what you replied obviously not.

What is it that you think I'm not getting? Your previous post talked about unrealistic comparisons of 720p vs 1080p projectors. Your stated examples were 1) extremely mismatched light output of 5k to 1k lumens that would benefit a 720p projector, 2) a broken 1080p projector that would benefit the 720p projector, and 3) large discrepancies in pricing of PJ's in favor of the 720p PJ while watching SD material, and even then, you hedge your bet and say the 720p might not even be judged better in those situations. I think we can all be intelligent enough to read between the lines of your post and infer that you're stating that there is no way on God's green earth that any 720p PJ could outperform a 1080p PJ in any reasonable shootout. And that is simply wrong.

There are certain situations that a 720p projector can produce a better image than a 1080p projector. This is not saying that 1080p is not a better technology than 720p . It is. All projector manufacturers recognize that and are moving forward with the better technology. But there is much more to a PJ's imaging quality than just the pixel count.

1080p is not only better because of pixel density. It is better for many rerasons

1) pixel density (might as well get this one out there first)
2) spacing between pixels (i.e. grid lines/ SDE)
3) newer tech vs older decrepit tech (you talked about Sim2 C3X but the newer model is 1080p, if you like their product and that line then why have a projector that is a few years old when you can get the newer one with all newer tech inside)
4) processing vs 1:1 mapping. (i.e. your BD disk has 1080p info on it, to show it on a 720p you must kill and destroy some (more then 1/2) of the detail in the shot

You talked about light path and lenses and processing and all that, I am guessing you know that pixel stands for picture element and describes the smallest item of information of the pic. now a 720p has less then 1/2 the resolution of a 1080p projector and what is on the disk. Let's say that the disk has info that two consecutive pixels in 1080p need to be different (i.e. for an easy example one is white and one is black) since 720p has less then 1/2 the resolution those two need to be combined (it has 1/2 the resolution it happens for around 1/2 the pixels of the 1080p image, it is not as if this scenario would be rare or something.) can you explain how due to optics or colour accuracy or what ever other mumbo jumbo black magic you believe that the fancy 720p projector can do that I will get a more accurate representation of those two pixels from a 720p projector then any none mis working 1080p projector?

Your first two reasons are restatements of the same fact: higher pixel density. Yes, I know that 2k > 1k. Yes, pixel structure will less apparent on the 1080p PJ at shorter seating distances.

In re: your third reason-- As I stated before, yes, 1080p is the better, "newer" technology. But 720p is not "decrepit". Sure, we all want the latest and the greatest, but that doesn't mean that everything that is not the latest and greatest is a "decrepit" POS. The technology is still very serviceable.

In re: your fourth reason: yes, 1:1 pixel mapping for 1080p material is an advantage that 1080p PJ's will have over 720p. But, there are other elements of a projector's design that have just as important impacts on the projected image. Are you actually arguing that optical quality or video processing has no relevance to a PJ's picture quality and that pixel density is the end-all be-all of projector design?

Good/poor quality glass will absolutely make or break a projector.

And what about 720p and 1080i material out there? This is still the majority of broadcast material out there like sports and whatnot. What if the 720p can display this natively whereas the 1080p has to do some "mumbo jumbo black magic" to upconvert it to work on the 1080p panel? Is the PJ's VP section important then?

no, what I mean is that colour and accuracy are oxymorons. Our (human) eyes are not as good as we would like to think when it comes to colour. So visualy colour accuracy is not that important (but I still beleive in ISF calibration since the human eye should be the limiting factor)

...

colour (like size) is determined much more by its surroundings then some chart of absolutes. Which is funny when some guys talk about colour accuracy as being the more important especially when you also consider that you don't have pixel accuracy so colour accuracy is impossible (i.e. there will be areas where the colour is not what it should be because the pixel info is wrong to begin with).

The human visual system is not the limitation here-- the systems that we have designed to record and reproduce moving images are. Our ability to resolve image resolution, luma, and chroma far exceed the ability of our equipment to reproduce it. The systems that we have in place are compromises made based on the limitations of the technology and cost constraints.

Color accuracy in a projector has nothing to do with how we perceive the context of colors (which is what the images you post illustrate-- they are optical illusions based upon our mind's perception of the colors in a certain context). Color accuracy is simply whether the PJ in question can accurately reproduce the color gamut defined in the particular system that is being employed (Rec 601, Rec 709, DCI, etc). Some PJs are good at this, some are not. ISF calibrations strive for perfect color reproduction based upon these defined standards so that the final image is as close to the "source master" as possible. If one projector can do this perfectly, but another cannot, regardless of its pixel density, which image would you say is better?

Color accuracy in a projector is possible, within the confines of the systems that we have defined. Why establish standards of color reproduction in video systems if they cannot be achieved?

all else equal, and unless you are talking about a simple monochromatic pic, the 1080p, sooner or later (in the pic) the 720p will need to kill borderline pixel info and those should not be slightly off (like faulty colour accuracy) but completely off.

Yes, as I stated previously a 720p projector cannot 1:1 pixel map 1080p material: Advantage 1080p PJ. But a 1080p projector cannot 1:1 pixel map 720p or 1080i material whereas the 720p can with 720p material. Don't you think this might be an advantage for someone who watches a lot of sports that are broadcast in this resolution? This doesn't even get into how the projector handles 3:2 pulldown or if it handles 24fps correctly. This is why VP sections are important to a PJ's image reproduction, and why image quality is not always just about the pixel density.

I know, and I answer the question in my first post

And your answer is "no, it cannot under any reasonable circumstance". And I, and many other folks, disagree with that.

actually that is exactly what it means. Projector tech moves way too fast, yes a 20k 720p will most likely have some benefits and features over a 2k 1080p but if you have that 20k why not spend it on a 1080p projector and why compare it to the 2k 1080p and not the 20k 1080p. Someone would either need a very restricted budget, a specific device for a particular job where no 1080p projector exists today or to be stupid and a poser (if he goes high end) to get a 720p projector. Like I said before pretty much in every market there are 1080p projectors that can do the job, you are looking for high end, there are 1080p projectors in the high end, you want bright for big screen there are 1080p projectors that fit those criteria, you want under 2k$ there are 1080p projectors in that price category.... The only reason someone would get a high end 720p projector is that they want to pretend they care ("look I have the expensive brand...") but that they are posers and don't want to spend what it takes to get the quality they are pretending they care about ("....but I bought a used 3 year old one for cheap").

You are arguing that 1080p is a better technology than 720p, and no one is arguing that here. Everyone knows that 2K>1K.

But again, in answer to the OP's question: Yes, there are real world situations where an image from a 720p projector will look better than a 1080p projector. A Sim2 C3X (new MSRP ~$19k, used ~$6k) will throw an image that will be better than a good number of 1080p projectors under equivalent projection conditions. A person who likes a number of the features of the C3X like its high ANSI contrast, depth of image, color reproduction, lack of color separation artifacts, reduced motion blur compared to LCD or LCOS, the VP section/CMS, etc, but doesn't want to spring the >$30k for a C3X1080 nor does he want to "compromise" and get a 1080p projector that doesn't have those qualities that he wants, isn't a "poser" for picking what he feels is the better projector, even if it isn't a 1080p. S/he has let his eyes do the talking, as we all should.

I understand you feel strongly that 1080p resolution is better than 720p resolution, which is completely true under the right viewing distances. But that is not what we are discussing here. We are talking about the image that a projector throws, which is dependent on many more factors than just the pixel density of its imaging panel/chip. Turning a blind eye to all the other potential features that make a projector great and calling all 720p projectors "decrepit" crap is wrong.

I stand by my prior answer that there are real world situations (not just the extreme situations that you described) where an image from a 720p projector can be better than a 1080p projector under similar projection conditions, not the least of which is the seating positions in the theater in question.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by daniel56

hey dude,

resolution does matter. after all why do we watch movies or TV.
if resolution made no sense.
trust me....believe urself only.

Your post makes no sense and adds nothing to the duscussion. And, since you have chosen to add some crap code to your post, you have been reported.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

no aggression, just tired of reading BS good enough from people that don't know anything.

I don't think anybody's spouting BS here, we're just discussing a question that the OP brought up. I'll be the first to admit I am not an optical or video engineer, this is very much a hobby for me. But my statements are as factual as I can discern. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.

as for Brain Sturgeon, my guess is that we agree a lot more then disagree on this topic and often he does seem to be a smart guy who has some idea what he is talking about. As for Beta man, that is a totally different story and I will leave it at that.

Thanks. However, the barb directed at Beta is uncalled for in my opinion. I don't know if you guys have a history, but Beta is as forthcoming as they come around here-- I've not known him to spout fallacies for any particular reason.

As for why reply to you, that was because you replied after I did and included a useless link (not on topic) to a useless publication (GIGO). You like living in a 720p world thinking that it is the ultimate viewing experience, then go one, no one is stopping you. But when you try to mislead others with bad links then people need to speak up before this place becomes like AVS where 90% is BS because the guy got convinced nothing matters and so his 32” 720p visio TV is the ultimate viewing experience and anything else is just a waste of money.

There is nothing wrong with considering a 720p projector for the reasons I have listed. As I have repeatedly stated, there are instances where a 720p projector will produce a fabulous image, even compared to other 1080p PJ's.

I am also a member at AVS, and that site, much like any other site, has its share of misinformation. But the projector/home theater build forums are filled with serious hombres who are very involved with the field and know what they are talking about, including theater/acoustic designers/integrators/installers, projector/optical/audio engineers, equipment reviewers/journalists, and serious enthusiasts. At least from the standpoint of those forum sections, I beg to differ that "90% is BS" there. You need to separate the chaff from the good stuff, but it's there. And there is certainly no one there who is spouting that their 720p Visio is the pinnacle of video reproduction.

No one should take this discussion personally-- we're all just trying to get to some sort of an objective answer.

[dTm]

1080p vs 720p is 1920x1080 vs 1280x720

1080p wins...

[Brain Sturgeon]

Gentlemen (and ladies if present)-- lets keep things civil. We're all here to enjoy our free time (I would hope!) and share/learn some information about shared interests.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by dTm

1080p vs 720p is 1920x1080 vs 1280x720

1080p wins...

Yes, we all understand 2k>1k. That is not the question here.

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

no aggression, just tired of reading BS good enough from people that don't know anything.

as for Brain Sturgeon, my guess is that we agree a lot more then disagree on this topic and often he does seem to be a smart guy who has some idea what he is talking about. As for Beta man, that is a totally different story and I will leave it at that.

As for why reply to you, that was because you replied after I did and included a useless link (not on topic) to a useless publication (GIGO). You like living in a 720p world thinking that it is the ultimate viewing experience, then go one, no one is stopping you. But when you try to mislead others with bad links then people need to speak up before this place becomes like AVS where 90% is BS because the guy got convinced nothing matters and so his 32” 720p visio TV is the ultimate viewing experience and anything else is just a waste of money.

Do you actually comprehend what people post, or are you just so full of yourself and your opinons that you only see what you want to see in order to crap on folks? Again, for the comprehension-impaired, my original post was in rebuttal to the GENERAL statement that 1080p will ALWAYS be "better" than 720p. What, exactly, was BS in any of that? If you honestly don't see that or understand my arguments why that is a load of crap, then I don't know what else to say. If you choose to live under the false perception that resolution is THE one and only deciding factor when it comes to picture quality, then more power to you.

Not only do you choose to attack me, but now you throw in a smart ass comment about Beta? Nice. That really helps your credibility, pal. The link provided was on-topic for the for the point I was making. As for your "opinion" as to the credibility of the article, well, you've yet to dispute it with anything other than the "because I said so" argument. I never once claimed to be living in a 720p world, but I (and others) have seen enough worthless posts from folks (like you, apparently) who claim you MUST have a 1080p set in order to have the BEST picture. This is simply not true, and has been proven time-and again around here (and over at AVS).

I will take a 720p display device that has excellent black levels, native contrast, color reproduction and motion resolution over a 1080p device that rates only mediocre in those areas any day of the week, and I can assure you most folks around here who understand all of that will agree.

[Anthony P]

Okay. Let's take the extremes out of the equation.

well then a 720p projector cannot beat a 1080p projector.

I think we can all be intelligent enough to read between the lines of your post and infer that you're stating that there is no way on God's green earth that any 720p PJ could outperform a 1080p PJ in any reasonable shootout. And that is simply wrong.

no, that is simply right. If you don't care to admit it, it does not make it wrong, it just makes you closed minded.

There are certain situations that a 720p projector can produce a better image than a 1080p projector. This is not saying that 1080p is not a better technology than 720p . It is. All projector manufacturers recognize that and are moving forward with the better technology. But there is much more to a PJ's imaging quality than just the pixel count.

stop talking BS theoretical, I gave ridiculous situations where it can happen, and that it is only in the ridiculous that such a statement is real, so why don't you tell us the none ridiculous situation where such a statement can be true. Then people can test to see if the situation is ridiculous or if the 720p is truly better at representing what is n this disk

Your first two reasons are restatements of the same fact:

no they are not. can you explain why you think they are. Obviously one helps the other, but you could have more pixels and more (or the same) amount of space between them. Why do you feel so comfortable that newer and improved chips for 1080p projectors must improve on the distance between pixels but the improvement won't be there for better over all pics?

Are you actually arguing that optical quality or video processing has no relevance to a PJ's picture quality and that pixel density is the end-all be-all of projector design?

no what I am stating is that, for example, it is ridiculous to talk about colour accuracy, like Ricshoe did before, when you don't have pixel accuracy to begin with. If the BD which is 1080p has a red pixel followed by a blue one, and that on the 720p projector those two pixels need to be shown as one and so have only one colour, what is the accurate colour of that pixel. With less then 1/2 the info (1080p has 2.25x the number of pixels of 720p) that is a lot of info killed and a lot of areas of the screen that are not showing what they should.

Color accuracy is simply whether the PJ in question can accurately reproduce the color gamut defined in the particular system that is being employed (Rec 601, Rec 709, DCI, etc). Some PJs are good at this, some are not. ISF calibrations strive for perfect color reproduction based upon these defined standards so that the final image is as close to the "source master" as possible. If one projector can do this perfectly, but another cannot, regardless of its pixel density, which image would you say is better?

woush, there went the point. I know what colour accuracy means. But , again, if I look at


and I say some look burgundy and others magenta when they are the exact some colour or if I look at

and I look at the middle of the cross and say it looks yellow or purple even though they are both grey, can you tell me why you think the monitor being slightly off in a few colours(i.e. like the green push you said the RS2 supposedly has) would be more detrimental then having half the information gone from the screen?

I think colour accuracy is important but 1) it is easily fixed, 2) no where near as important (unless we go into the ridiculous) as resolution because to our eyes it is just not that important and they are much more affected by the surroundings then some absolute.

But a 1080p projector cannot 1:1 pixel map 720p or 1080i material whereas the 720p can with 720p material

you can 1:1 1080i, it is the same number of pixels, and I am at blu-ray.com, I am not at DVD.com to care about 480 and I am not at xbox360.com (or some other game system) or DL.com to care about 720. Then again, with a good upscaler on a big image you are probably better off up scaling or where you there saying "you should have a 480p projector because it 1:1 to DVD"

Thanks. However, the barb directed at Beta is uncalled for in my opinion. I don't know if you guys have a history, but Beta is as forthcoming as they come around here-- I've not known him to spout fallacies for any particular reason.

it was not a barb, and did not mean it that way. I was also not the one that singled you or him out. And no I don't have anything against the guy. We are just two very different people. I think facts and accuracy are important and the only thing, while he seams to be the "make everyone feel good about themselves"

I am also a member at AVS, and that site, much like any other site, has its share of misinformation

I was a very active member for a very long time, and one of the reasons I joined this site after I left there, was that many of the other better members that left it came here and I saw names I recognized and respected. And I agree that some of those smart people are still there. On the other hand hen I did post my good bye message some did PM me with you should stick around and just not pay attention to the garbage and that like them I should just stick to the higher end forums. The only issue is that rot is contagious. Put a few good tomatoes in the fridge with a bunch of rotten fruits and vegetables and in no time flat those tomatoes become just as rotten.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

well then a 720p projector cannot beat a 1080p projector.

no, that is simply right. If you don't care to admit it, it does not make it wrong, it just makes you closed minded.

I'm being closed minded.

I have seen many and currently own a 1080p projector. I have not owned a 720p projector but have seen a number in action that produce outstanding results to my eyes. And in allowing my eyes to see differences in image quality from different projectors regardless of whether there is a 720p or 1080p sticker on the box, somehow I'm being closed minded.

Pot meet kettle. Sorry, I think this is the end of our discussion as I am flabbergasted.

stop talking BS theoretical, I gave ridiculous situations where it can happen, and that it is only in the ridiculous that such a statement is real, so why don't you tell us the none ridiculous situation where such a statement can be true. Then people can test to see if the situation is ridiculous or if the 720p is truly better at representing what is n this disk

I did. A Sim2 C3X versus, lets say an Epson 1080UB, or a Panasonic AE2000, or a BenQ W5000. See them for yourself in a shootout and let me know what you think.

no they are not. can you explain why you think they are. Obviously one helps the other, but you could have more pixels and more (or the same) amount of space between them. Why do you feel so comfortable that newer and improved chips for 1080p projectors must improve on the distance between pixels but the improvement won't be there for better over all pics?

How are they not related? You have a finite geometry in a 16:9 frame to fit 1920x1080 square pixels. How does the pixel density in a finite geometry not have anything to do with the space between them, assuming that you want to cover the entire frame?

I've agreed with you that 1080p does have the advantage of finer pixel structure reducing SDE compared with a 720p panel/chip. But, this is not the ONLY determinant of imaging quality.

no what I am stating is that, for example, it is ridiculous to talk about colour accuracy, like Ricshoe did before, when you don't have pixel accuracy to begin with. If the BD which is 1080p has a red pixel followed by a blue one, and that on the 720p projector those two pixels need to be shown as one and so have only one colour, what is the accurate colour of that pixel. With less then 1/2 the info (1080p has 2.25x the number of pixels of 720p) that is a lot of info killed and a lot of areas of the screen that are not showing what they should.

What the heck does color accuracy, or lack thereof, have to do with pixel accuracy? They are completely different issues that both have an important impact on imaging quality. There are multiple issues outside of pixel density that have an impact on image quality, accurate color gamut reproduction being one of them.

Also, as I mentioned in my prior post, what if the source image is 720p? Many people (myself included) frequently watch broadcast sports on the FP's, which is usually broadcast in 720p. What about pixel accuracy then with the 1080p panel? Video processing for upconversion then becomes important. Yet again, another factor in the PJ that will affect its image quality.

Are you sensing a theme here yet?

woush, there went the point. I know what colour accuracy means. But , again, if I look at

...

and I say some look burgundy and others magenta when they are the exact some colour or if I look at

...

and I look at the middle of the cross and say it looks yellow or purple even though they are both grey, can you tell me why you think the monitor being slightly off in a few colours(i.e. like the green push you said the RS2 supposedly has) would be more detrimental then having half the information gone from the screen?

Because to some people, inaccurate color reproduction is a more bothersome and noticable issue than SDE in a projector that properly converts 1080p sources to the native resolution of the imaging panel.

I think colour accuracy is important but 1) it is easily fixed, 2) no where near as important (unless we go into the ridiculous) as resolution because to our eyes it is just not that important and they are much more affected by the surroundings then some absolute.

Colour accuracy cannot be fixed in every projector, and there are clearly projectors that reproduce colors better than others. Ask Joe Kane about his Samsung A800B. It was his primary focus in designing that PJ, and is what that projector is best known for.

You obviously are fixated on the resolution issue so much that all other issues are secondary. That's fine, but suffice it to say that there are many out there who would vehemently disagree with you that accurate colours (i.e. the ability for an imaging device to conform perfectly to a defined color gamut) "is just not that important."

As I mentioned before, I think this conversation is over. My arguments are not getting anywhere with you, and yours are not with me. Our positions are as stated, and we will agree to disagree. I yield the floor.