24P (Is it worth it?)

[bluwill]

Yes I have a 1080p DLP by samsung that does 24p and yes its worth it

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by Sonny

I should of put "" marks , as those words were from D-Nice about the G10, V10 & 8G, 9G Kuros. My bad. Buy what you like.

I haven't decided what I will buy yet, but I was just curious as to which is better. Some people have lucked up and gotten 5010FD's pretty cheap, and I wondered if the G10 was equal or better. I just want some detailed opinions on this since I myself have never seen the two side by side.

[_kirk_]

Originally Posted by turboLAZER

the following is copy and pasted from a similar thread......





the panasonic's 800 series tv's 24fps/48hz flicker is NOT A DEFECT. The feature is designed to replicate the theatrical experience. When you go to your local movie theater, the film you're watching has 24 frames per second, and each frame is flashed twice in that second. The 48hz mode reproduces that effect on your tv screen. the flicker becomes more noticeable on the tv because the brightness is much higher. To reduce the visibility of the flicker the brightness should be turned down or change the picture mode to the THX setting. When you combine the THX mode and the 48hz mode you get a near perfect cinematic effect. If you are not interested in creating a theatrical experience in your home theater, do not use these features.

for the record, i don't use 48hz or THX mode on my pz800 because i calibrate my set for live events, not for a film-like theatrical experience.

Hmm. Well, on the V10, even in THX mode with brightness at no more than 50, I see a "flashing" effect much of the time if the 24p is set to 48Hz - a flashing that goes away if the 24p is set to 96Hz.

[nugent]

Originally Posted by lojack1976

I haven't decided what I will buy yet, but I was just curious as to which is better. Some people have lucked up and gotten 5010FD's pretty cheap, and I wondered if the G10 was equal or better. I just want some detailed opinions on this since I myself have never seen the two side by side.

Sam's Auctions has been selling the 5010's.
http://auctions.samsclub.com/Scripts...odname=1168285
I got my parents one for under $1,500 delivered. It arrived in perfect condition. Wally World and Sam's are authorized dealers for the record. My credit card added an extra year of warranty so I have 2 years warranty.

I plan on setting it up for them this weekend. I am sure the Panny is a great set but I figured if I could get a Kuro for that price I had to bite.

[Sonny]

while I had many 800u panasonics the 48HZ didn't bother for the most part, but at the same time I have seen a number of other 800/850 that do bother me. It was most likely due to setting and or envo/area.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by _kirk_

Hmm. Well, on the V10, even in THX mode with brightness at no more than 50, I see a "flashing" effect much of the time if the 24p is set to 48Hz - a flashing that goes away if the 24p is set to 96Hz.

So the V10 has both 48Hz and 96Hz settings?
The flicker is supposed to be seen, just like it is at the cinema. Describing it as "unwatchable" is what I've never been able to do, because it really isn't.

That's cool that they have both options in there. How do you find the blacks on the V10?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Sonny

Doby, I thought 1080p/24 = jitter free? (Jan 2007) I'm just giving you a hard time.
I think it's worth it. It along with many other things make for the best picture possible. That's what "we" all want right??? Every peace' of the puzzle...

Hopefully if it's from one of my posts I said "Judder" or maybe I was young and uneducated at that time?


I think it's worth it too, totally, but not at the expense of blacks, colour accuracy, motion resolution, 3:2 processing, deinterlacing, etc. That's all, it's just way down the list of things that I think are important.

I've watched several scenes that have 3:2 judder in 48Hz and 60Hz mode and the difference is really only noticeable when you start looking for it and comparing modes. With regular film watching I wouldn't notice it a tenth as much as I'd notice motion blurring or loss of shadow detail.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Hopefully if it's from one of my posts I said "Judder" or maybe I was young and uneducated at that time?


I think it's worth it too, totally, but not at the expense of blacks, colour accuracy, motion resolution, 3:2 processing, deinterlacing, etc. That's all, it's just way down the list of things that I think are important.

I've watched several scenes that have 3:2 judder in 48Hz and 60Hz mode and the difference is really only noticeable when you start looking for it and comparing modes. With regular film watching I wouldn't notice it a tenth as much as I'd notice motion blurring or loss of shadow detail.

I'm with you. The post was many moons ago. 1080p/24 was a "new" thing. I think the panasonic with it's 48Hz is miss understood by most. I think all the things you mentioned are very important too, of course. When the hole puzzle comes put together, it makes for one sweet package. I want the best that does it ALL! Pioneer & Panny can do that, that's where my love for them comes from.

[_kirk_]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

So the V10 has both 48Hz and 96Hz settings?
The flicker is supposed to be seen, just like it is at the cinema. Describing it as "unwatchable" is what I've never been able to do, because it really isn't.

If you switch back and forth on the V10 between 48Hz and 96Hz in 24p mode, there is a noticeable difference - there is a flickering effect that occurs much of the time at 48Hz that goes away at 96Hz.

It's important to note that the "flicker" people complain about is not the natural "judder" that is inherent in 24fps material. If you have a computer monitor that can go below 60Hz, try watching it in lower Hz settings and you may see what I'm talking about.

That's cool that they have both options in there. How do you find the blacks on the V10?

Well, no real means of comparison as this is my first HDTV. My impression is that the blacks are quite dark, but not so dark that you lose subtle detail. It'll be interesting to see the professional reviews with measurements of the various picture quality elements - I would think that the V10 would rate similarly to the G10, but with a wider range of setting options available. We'll see though...

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by _kirk_

If you switch back and forth on the V10 between 48Hz and 96Hz in 24p mode, there is a noticeable difference - there is a flickering effect that occurs much of the time at 48Hz that goes away at 96Hz.

It's important to note that the "flicker" people complain about is not the natural "judder" that is inherent in 24fps material. If you have a computer monitor that can go below 60Hz, try watching it in lower Hz settings and you may see what I'm talking about.

I know exactly what the flicker is, I've been trying to explain it to people for over a year!

If you set your V10 to 48Hz and then look about 2ft to the right of the screen you'll notice the refresh rate a lot more than you do when looking straight at it.
96Hz will definitely be no flicker, too fast for the human eye.

[_kirk_]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

If you set your V10 to 48Hz and then look about 2ft to the right of the screen you'll notice the refresh rate a lot more than you do when looking straight at it.

That may be true - I haven't experimented with different viewing angles with this issue. When I was testing 48Hz, I was directly in front of the TV, and while it wasn't constantly noticeable, it was noticeable frequently enough to be a distraction.

[lojack1976]

Originally Posted by nugent

Sam's Auctions has been selling the 5010's.
http://auctions.samsclub.com/Scripts...odname=1168285
I got my parents one for under $1,500 delivered. It arrived in perfect condition. Wally World and Sam's are authorized dealers for the record. My credit card added an extra year of warranty so I have 2 years warranty.

I plan on setting it up for them this weekend. I am sure the Panny is a great set but I figured if I could get a Kuro for that price I had to bite.

Well, you got a great deal. I had no idea that they were auctioning them. Like I said, I have decided what I'm going to do. After my disappointment with not getting the Hitachi that I settled on I'm leaning towards waiting it out and getting a bigger set. This is why I'm curious as to how the G10 compares to the 5010FD. I've been eying the 54" or possible waiting on the 58" S1. I've seen the G10 in person, and although the THX irks me a bit with the green/yellow push I've read over on avsforum that the custom mode can be calibrated better when accessing the service menu. Ideally I'll wait and get a 6020FD if I can, but I'll settle for a 50" if it turns out that the other options don't satisfy me. If the G10 isn't as good as the 5010FD then I'm not sure I'll be happy with it.

[turboLAZER]

Originally Posted by _kirk_

Hmm. Well, on the V10, even in THX mode with brightness at no more than 50, I see a "flashing" effect much of the time if the 24p is set to 48Hz - a flashing that goes away if the 24p is set to 96Hz.

i'll try to explain this a again,

the 48hz flicker or "flashing effect" is supposed to be there to replicate the flicker you would see in a traditional movie theater, but the higher the brightness on your tv the more noticeable it will be.

96hz is not trying to reproduce a film-like image you get a the movie theater, the purpose of 96hz is to eliminate the uneven judder associated with 2:3 pulldown.

48hz = cinematic flicker effect

96hz = smooth image, but in no way meant to look like it did in the movie theaters

[_kirk_]

Originally Posted by turboLAZER

i'll try to explain this a again,

the 48hz flicker or "flashing effect" is supposed to be there to replicate the flicker you would see in a traditional movie theater, but the higher the brightness on your tv the more noticeable it will be.

96hz is not trying to reproduce a film-like image you get a the movie theater, the purpose of 96hz is to eliminate the uneven judder associated with 2:3 pulldown.

48hz = cinematic flicker effect

96hz = smooth image, but in no way meant to look like it did in the movie theaters

That is not correct. Both 48Hz and 96Hz, being multiples of 24, show actual 24fps; in other words, you only see the 24 frames per second that were actually shot by the director. There is no interpolation occurring with the 96Hz mode.

The difference between the 48Hz and the 96Hz is the refresh rate at 48Hz is low enough that it can be visible to many people; if you have a computer monitor that can go below 60Hz, try it and you'll see what I mean (most monitors don't go below 60Hz for that very reason). That slower refresh rate is what manifests as a "flashing" or "flickering" effect.

This is not the same thing as the "judder" that is inherent in 24fps material.

And the 96Hz mode is not an interpolation mode like 60Hz or 3:2 pulldown which creates interpolated frames to bridge the difference between 24fps source material and 30fps playback on TV's.

[turboLAZER]

Originally Posted by _kirk_

That is not correct. Both 48Hz and 96Hz, being multiples of 24, show actual 24fps; in other words, you only see the 24 frames per second that were actually shot by the director. There is no interpolation occurring with the 96Hz mode.

The difference between the 48Hz and the 96Hz is the refresh rate at 48Hz is low enough that it can be visible to many people; if you have a computer monitor that can go below 60Hz, try it and you'll see what I mean (most monitors don't go below 60Hz for that very reason). That slower refresh rate is what manifests as a "flashing" or "flickering" effect.

This is not the same thing as the "judder" that is inherent in 24fps material.

And the 96Hz mode is not an interpolation mode like 60Hz or 3:2 pulldown which creates interpolated frames to bridge the difference between 24fps source material and 30fps playback on TV's.

try reading my post again, I am not talking a motion interpolation(motion flow, auto motion plus, etc...). I am talking about the refresh rate of 48hz is slower which creates the flicker, like is does when watching film in a theater. The 48hz is a feature to recreate the film-effect. 96hz is not motion interpolation. the refresh is faster making the flicker less visible. 2:3 pulldown does not reconstruct frames of an image from actual frames like motion interpolation does.

[_kirk_]

Originally Posted by turboLAZER

try reading my post again, I am not talking a motion interpolation(motion flow, auto motion plus, etc...). I am talking about the refresh rate of 48hz is slower which creates the flicker, like is does when watching film in a theater. The 48hz is a feature to recreate the film-effect. 96hz is not motion interpolation. the refresh is faster making the flicker less visible. 2:3 pulldown does not reconstruct frames of an image from actual frames like motion interpolation does.

The "film-effect" that most people are after is seeing that source material played back at 24fps, i.e. the "judder" that is visible in quick movements in film due to the slower fps speed as compared to TV sources which are 30fps.

I have my doubts that Panasonic honestly intended for the flashing/flickering effect at 48Hz refresh to be visible; having seen it myself, I can say with confidence that this is not what you see in cinemas.

Watching 24p mode at 96Hz (or 72Hz on the Pioneers) is a genuine, authentic film experience.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by _kirk_

The "film-effect" that most people are after is seeing that source material played back at 24fps, i.e. the "judder" that is visible in quick movements in film due to the slower fps speed as compared to TV sources which are 30fps.

I have my doubts that Panasonic honestly intended for the flashing/flickering effect at 48Hz refresh to be visible; having seen it myself, I can say with confidence that this is not what you see in cinemas.

Watching 24p mode at 96Hz (or 72Hz on the Pioneers) is a genuine, authentic film experience.

We disagree - I often see the 48Hz effect in cinemas.
Panasonic definitely intended for it.
Pioneer with 72Hz did not, it was supposed to be SMOOTH. Panasonic went for "FILMIC".
Watching at 72Hz or 96Hz is nothing like the cinema, because I never feel like I'm watching a projected image.

[turboLAZER]

Originally Posted by _kirk_

The "film-effect" that most people are after is seeing that source material played back at 24fps, i.e. the "judder" that is visible in quick movements in film due to the slower fps speed as compared to TV sources which are 30fps.

I have my doubts that Panasonic honestly intended for the flashing/flickering effect at 48Hz refresh to be visible; having seen it myself, I can say with confidence that this is not what you see in cinemas.

Watching 24p mode at 96Hz (or 72Hz on the Pioneers) is a genuine, authentic film experience.

because you're new to this forum i thought i would try to help you understand the purpose of a 48hz refresh, but I guess im not doing a very good job.

48hz is supposed to have a noticeable flicker, it is NOT A DEFECT!

whether you want to believe it or not, the 48hz feature is doing exactly what it was designed for

[blurayisking]

According to Panasonic, the 48Hz mode on last year's PZ800 and PZ850 was intended for the purpose of showing the effect of " old-time" movie experience". Needless to say, owners complained about the problem, thinking that the flicker was a fault.

So for this year, the G10 series included the 48Hz mode but Panasonic's intention was to minimize the flicker problem but obviously they have failed to do so.

Here in Canada, the G15 series will be available at certain stores so I asked Panasonic, about the flicker problem at 48Hz and they assured me that the flicker problem on G15 series won't be visible but I personally doubt that the representative was aware that CNET's review of the G10 showed flicker at 48Hz mode and therefore I have no reason to suspect that the G15 series will be any different. anyway, here's hoping so when they are available in-store in mid to late June, I plan to check this out.

[lghaze42]

Originally Posted by turboLAZER

the following is copy and pasted from a similar thread......





the panasonic's 800 series tv's 24fps/48hz flicker is NOT A DEFECT. The feature is designed to replicate the theatrical experience. When you go to your local movie theater, the film you're watching has 24 frames per second, and each frame is flashed twice in that second. The 48hz mode reproduces that effect on your tv screen. the flicker becomes more noticeable on the tv because the brightness is much higher. To reduce the visibility of the flicker the brightness should be turned down or change the picture mode to the THX setting. When you combine the THX mode and the 48hz mode you get a near perfect cinematic effect. If you are not interested in creating a theatrical experience in your home theater, do not use these features.

for the record, i don't use 48hz or THX mode on my pz800 because i calibrate my set for live events, not for a film-like theatrical experience.

Not trying to be a smarta**, but why did you buy a set with THX if you are not going to use it's benefeits?Do you not watch Blu-rays on your set?