Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by veritas

One thing that really needs to happan is if a title is written off a companies taxes then the movie or show should immediately enter the public domain. As it is currently a show being written off basically enters purgatory unavailable to be bought or sold by anybody (they can be recovered in theory but it’s not realistic).

kind of agree. But don't forget
1) it does not mean the content is finished
2) in this case some of it is licensed content. Basically all it means is they won't be on Hulu/Disney+ any more, they are paying the studio for exit what they owe and next quarter + Disney under their streaming platforms can pretend the costs have gone down. The studio that owns teh content and licensed it still own the content.

[Boccaccio]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Agree with most of your points. The decline in Blu-ray sales is pretty easy to understand, box office power. Just not enough new tent poles to sustain big sales month after month. Look at your own top 25, very few titles from recent years.

Disc in general, saturation, collectors already have most of the titles they want. Another major factor, ownership, DVD created a unique experience in home entertainment which was buying content to own. LaserDisc and video cassette was available for sale for many years before DVD but not many ever purchased their content. With 120 mm video disc people starting buying and sales figures rose. Over time they bought all the titles they wanted, the disc market saturated and sales started and continues to decline. Add in ownership in general has declined.

If EST had really big numbers that would be a indicator people were moving away from disc ownership but that is not the case. Considering the number of EST capable devices vs disc devices EST sales are pretty pathetic.

What I'm wondering is why ownership is in decline. It's not movies alone.
It's all about subscriptions lately. Movies, music, the gym, bikes, steps and even cars.
Paying a monthly fee instead of buying what you want when you want it. Thing is, that money needs to be there every month.
Without all those subscriptions you can decide to slow down for a month or longer if the money isn't really there.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Boccaccio

What I'm wondering is why ownership is in decline. It's not movies alone.
It's all about subscriptions lately. Movies, music, the gym, bikes, steps and even cars.
Paying a monthly fee instead of buying what you want when you want it. Thing is, that money needs to be there every month.
Without all those subscriptions you can decide to slow down for a month or longer if the money isn't really there.

Yeah, as simple as the introduction of all-you-can-eat subscriptions. There are other factors but that’s the killer for me. Convenience was the key reason DVD was such a great success, quality was just a bonus for us film fanatics. Same with streaming. Especially now it’s built into tv sets. The vast majority of people don’t give a shit about quality. They just want to slump into their sofas after a hard days work and stream a film or tv show. Quality isn’t a big deal, adverts aren’t a big deal, audio from the tv speakers is fine, and watching a film more than once isn’t a major concern.

It’s frustrating, as us film fanatics dreamed of home cinema as children. We have it and I guess part of us wish everyone had the same love of cinema and film that we do, but sadly, convenience will always be champion.

My hope is that quality lovers will be catered for, even if we have to pay double what others do, and get to keep it somehow.

I try not to think about it too much because my brain is wired to over analyse everything and it needs to be calm to save my sanity.

I think most of you know this already going by some of my past rants.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by bhampton

There was a thought that streaming would destroy physical media but it's looking more like streaming will simply destroy the film industry completely.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I think these things tend to sort themselves out over time, although I do think there will only be four streaming services left standing in the USA (our situation is different with broadcast/cable/sat).

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Agree with most of your points. The decline in Blu-ray sales is pretty easy to understand, box office power. Just not enough new tent poles to sustain big sales month after month. Look at your own top 25, very few titles from recent years.

I think the issue is the "Apple" effect.

at the end of the 90's Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy, they even needed MS to invest in them to survive. But they bought SoundJam MP and started itunes and the ipod, and selling music for 1$ turned it into the company that it is now. they ended up locking people into their system (if you want to listen to itunes you need to buy an ipod and if you buy an ipod it is easier to buy from itunes). They were also selling songs for 1$ (easier to spend 1$ and pretend that is the only song you want than a CD that has some songs you won't listen again/ever on your ipod) and they became the music industry, squeezed the labels/musicians and became insanely prosperous.

Many went with the idea that cinema can be similar.

But we are talking subscription movies and

1) a film is a lot bigger then a song (so much more expensive technologically speaking)
2) people might only care for ne song on the album but people don't just want to see one chapter of a film
3) it is too easy for people to switch streaming providers (so they constantly need to be paying for expensive content or the content and the people will go somewhere else)
4) it is too easy to become a streaming provider

IMHO Movie Streaming will never be very profitable for the companies doing it (aka barely braking even). But it will continue to exist with new service providers popping up from time to time and existing service providers shutting down like any other retail business. But in the end does anyone care if moviestreams shuts down and you are using it? you either save money the next month or use that money to join streammovies. there will always be someone renting out content for you to watch.

As forphysial media? it is normal that it decreased
1) some people were buying beause that 3$ garbadge bin title was around the same price as the BB rental so why not buy and save the hastle of having to return to bring it back
2) rental places would buy some titles through retail and the rental has more or lwes died (streaming is more simple) and I know some will pretend this is not true even if Netflix, rebox.... have said they did so.
3) some people that used to buy physical are now buying none-physical copies.

A decrease was normal, does that mean physical is going anywhere? no. It is not about who is not buying any more but who is still buying and will continue to buy. I remember back in the early 70's my parents friend bought a new car and it came with an 8-track player. when he came to show of the new car he said something like records are dying, why would people continue buying records if they can listen to 8-tracks they buy in their home and car. In the 80's it was because cassettes where more convenient you can walk and listen to music and in 90's it was CDs because they don't lose quality just because you use them, he passed away before he could explain why itunes was going to kill records.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Boccaccio

What I'm wondering is why ownership is in decline. It's not movies alone.
It's all about subscriptions lately. Movies, music, the gym, bikes, steps and even cars.
Paying a monthly fee instead of buying what you want when you want it. Thing is, that money needs to be there every month.
Without all those subscriptions you can decide to slow down for a month or longer if the money isn't really there.

back in the hayday of rental shops I decided having to dress up, put on coat and boots, jump into a cold car, drive 15 minutes to the rental place, complain on selection because what I wanted was not there, decide on an other film since I was there anyways, drive back, change back into shorts and T-shirt and having to re do all that the next day to bring it back was too much hassle vs the price of a film, so I gave up on the idea of renting and went full ownership.

the inconvenience factor is no where near the same with subscription streaming as it was with physical media rental. Also if someone is already paying 50$ (for 2-3 services) it raises the question of "why should I pay to buy something else (physical or not) when I can find something to watch on the services I am already paying for."

ps as for some of the other stuff you mention it is because of what I like to call the "monthly trap" just because I have seen to many people fall in it. It is easy to say it is just 10,20,30...$ a month instead of what it really costs because you will be paying it for a long time and if you stop you have nothing

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

ps as for some of the other stuff you mention it is because of what I like to call the "monthly trap" just because I have seen to many people fall in it. It is easy to say it is just 10,20,30...$ a month instead of what it really costs because you will be paying it for a long time and if you stop you have nothing

What you have are the hours of enjoyment that you got from watching movies and TV shows.

It's like going out to dinner. You could have spent the money at the grocery store and come home with more meals than what the dinner cost. But you didn't.

Keep in mind that there are a many free streaming services - no out of pocket expense.

The biggest loser from streaming isn't disc. It's CBL/SAT TV. The forecast is by 2025 streaming will generate more revenue than "Pay TV."

[Wendell R. Breland]

IMHO, there has been a decline of technical expertise or technical expertise has been greatly deluded by the large number of growing Joe6P’s. There was a time one could purchase advanced electronics in kit form from Heathkit, Dynaco, Eico and others but they disappeared a long time ago. Towns of any size had audio boutique stores where you could buy a number of separate audio devices and many added video in the early 80's. Most are gone now.

All is not lost, if one knows where to look video projectors, audio/video processors, audio amps, video processors and other high end home theater items are readily available. For example, purchased all my home theater seating and popcorn machine here.

I have no doubt that if a cheaper method than pressed disc with more storage space became available then we would see content released on that format. Why, because there would be money to be made.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

What you have are the hours of enjoyment that you got from watching movies and TV shows.

It's like going out to dinner. You could have spent the money at the grocery store and come home with more meals than what the dinner cost. But you didn't.

Keep in mind that there are a many free streaming services - no out of pocket expense.

The biggest loser from streaming isn't disc. It's CBL/SAT TV. The forecast is by 2025 streaming will generate more revenue than "Pay TV."

he asked about purchase vs rental subscriptions so Cable was not in the discussion which s a rental service.

I egave one possible explenation for movies (can apply to some others as well) that is why I said "ps as for some of the other stuff" that means that did not apply to movies.

Bikes and cars don't fall into the convenience factor

I once had that discussion with a friend he was using Bixi
https://www.bixi.com/en/pricing

monthly
20$
Unlocking fee $0
Security deposit $0
Regular BIXI – 0 to 45 min Unlimited
Regular BIXI – 45 min + 11₵/minute
Electric BIXI 13₵/minute

he told me 20$ a month that is "cheap and I can afford it", a couple of years later I asked him how much he spent on Bixi so far and asked him could he have bought a bike for that (the answer was he could have bought a better bike). That is when he realized my point.


I don't have anything against monthly bills we all have tons of them and some are necessary, but way too many people don't take the time to calculate properly the real cost (when there is an alternative). and unfortunately for way too many people they don't add them all up to see how little of their pay is left over.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IMHO, there has been a decline of technical expertise or technical expertise has been greatly deluded by the large number of growing Joe6P’s. There was a time one could purchase advanced electronics in kit form from Heathkit, Dynaco, Eico and others but they disappeared a long time ago. Towns of any size had audio boutique stores where you could buy a number of separate audio devices and many added video in the early 80's. Most are gone now.

All is not lost, if one knows where to look video projectors, audio/video processors, audio amps, video processors and other high end home theater items are readily available. For example, purchased all my home theater seating and popcorn machine here.

I have no doubt that if a cheaper method than pressed disc with more storage space became available then we would see content released on that format. Why, because there would be money to be made.

I don't think Joe6pack hurts high end. It would be the equivalent of saying Joe6 pack buying economy compacts is hurting Lamborghini sales. IMHO two completely different markets even though they are all cars. The only thing it hurts is discussion on forums like this because some idiot will say more people buy economy compacts as if it is in question or as if anyone else cares.

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Agreed. Although blockbusters are definitely picking up some pace in the last couple of months. But yeah, that needs to be relentless for disc to be stable like you say.
We have four major blockbusters at cinemas at the moment, I think it’s the most we have had since COVID.

I said years back, I will go down with the ship, and that’s what I will do. I’m hoping it reaches 2030 (think it will) even if it’s just special editions with all the bells and whistles. Streaming doesn’t hold the same excitement for me, so I will just sit it out and wait for films over the long term (that I don’t see theatrically) rather than feeling the need to pay PVOD prices. Quality and ownership are the drivers for me.
When that’s gone, I become just another typical punter. It will save me money,I guess that’s a minuscule positive.

The HT will still be reserved for my disc collection which I strongly believe will become far more vast over the next two years.

I've largely stopped posting on these threads as, frankly, we all kinds of know where we all stand on the issues of movie theaters, physical media, streaming etc, and the usual suspects just keep rehashing the same discussion over and over..

I still pop in here from time to time mostly to see how our friends Vilya is doing and to see if anything has changed... SPOILER alert - for the most part nothing has LOL...

but I had to comment to this post as I'm wondering who wrote this... and what have you have done with STEEDEEL ? This is the most hopeful thing ever posted under this handle...

.... never mind...I see that the sky is falling a few posts later..LOL... back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I think these things tend to sort themselves out over time, although I do think there will only be four streaming services left standing in the USA (our situation is different with broadcast/cable/sat).
I think it will be far fewer originals (like the present moment) and the big four dictating where are the creatives go. That goes for movies as well. For the record, I think the big four (let’s say, 5 years from now) will be Warner Media, Amazon, Disney/Star (Hulu in your cases) and Apple. I see Paramount+ folding eventually with their assets living on across the four majors I mentioned. Maybe even a merger.
Despite common sense telling me Netflix will still be around, my gut tells me they will be merged with one of the big four. I don’t see them surviving as a stand alone.

Movie wise, who knows but what I do know is that this weekend, theatrical was up 72% on last years weekend. It was also up 22% over 2019. Film will be fine.

Cable tv was meant to be dead 5 years ago and now it’s meant to be dead in 5 years from now. (It won’t) There are always folk who claim film is dead Brian. It’s been happening since WW2. I wouldn’t worry.

disc wise, I don’t regret a thing. I was so incredibly hyped for DVD and was reading about this new format for a long time before it hit the market. Disc collecting is a glorious thing, it’s given me 23 fantastic years including Blu and UHD. It’s still going and hopefully, we will reach 30 years of disc releases. Regardless, what a fantastic time.

I think people drink the kool aid and that has contributed to discs decline. Jumping on the digital bandwagon with a format that is not even close to making up for disc declines, it’s the ‘MP3 download’ of the film world. Collecting digital dust on digital devices.
People also gave up ownership for a monthly menu of films that are just not sustainable.

I argued this point for a good few years but some folk knew better. ‘Digital films are the future’ , etc..
Ummm, no, no they aren’t. The formats YOY gains are skinny single digits.

Film hitting streaming services after a few months (PVOD first) will be the common sense end game. Hopefully, that will still include discs also down the line.

... actually I meant to respond to this post...

[Trekkie313]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I think people drink the kool aid and that has contributed to discs decline. Jumping on the digital bandwagon with a format that is not even close to making up for disc declines, it’s the ‘MP3 download’ of the film world. Collecting digital dust on digital devices.
People also gave up ownership for a monthly menu of films that are just not sustainable.

MP3 analogy is bad, you'll never lose them unless corrupted or they're ancient downloads that had playback DRM. Your PC can rip them from CDs and they can be easily copied infinitely across devices.

If you're talking about sound quality, 98% of people really cannot tell the difference between 320kbs and CD quality.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I've largely stopped posting on these threads as, frankly, we all kinds of know where we all stand on the issues of movie theaters, physical media, streaming etc, and the usual suspects just keep rehashing the same discussion over and over..

I still pop in here from time to time mostly to see how our friends Vilya is doing and to see if anything has changed... SPOILER alert - for the most part nothing has LOL...

but I had to comment to this post as I'm wondering who wrote this... and what have you have done with STEEDEEL ? This is the most hopeful thing ever posted under this handle...

.... never mind...I see that the sky is falling a few posts later..LOL... back to your regularly scheduled programming...

I don’t understand. My post was just a brutally honest reveal of where my headspace is at. We all have decisions to make in the coming years and that’s mine. I will go down with the ship. Streaming to me is just chilling in the living room and being entertained for a couple of hours, HT is different. It’s pure escapism with superb A/V. Don’t get me wrong, I still engage with the films and series via streaming, but it’s not as exciting. Plus, I like to own films I really enjoy and you never know when a film will be removed due to some delicate snowflake movement.
If it wasn’t for the hundreds of films on disc I will continue to enjoy when the format ends, I would get rid of the HT and just make do with a OLED and a sound bar. That’s what I think of streaming.
Just need to further boost my library of films on disc. That’s no problem.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

MP3 analogy is bad, you'll never lose them unless corrupted or they're ancient downloads that had playback DRM. Your PC can rip them from CDs and they can be easily copied infinitely across devices.

If you're talking about sound quality, 98% of people really cannot tell the difference between 320kbs and CD quality.

Not at all. Both products were deemed the future, only to be pushed out by streaming subscriptions.

By the way, run those 320kbs through a decent sound system and you soon notice the difference. Not so much, some crappy in ear headphones.

[Trekkie313]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Not at all. Both products were deemed the future, only to be pushed out by streaming subscriptions.

By the way, run those 320kbs through a decent sound system and you soon notice the difference. Not so much, some crappy in ear headphones.

Sounded great via my PC and playing on my PS3.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

Sounded great via my PC and playing on my PS3.

Fair play.

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I don’t understand. My post was just a brutally honest reveal of where my headspace is at. We all have decisions to make in the coming years and that’s mine. I will go down with the ship. Streaming to me is just chilling in the living room and being entertained for a couple of hours, HT is different. It’s pure escapism with superb A/V. Don’t get me wrong, I still engage with the films and series via streaming, but it’s not as exciting. Plus, I like to own films I really enjoy and you never know when a film will be removed due to some delicate snowflake movement.
If it wasn’t for the hundreds of films on disc I will continue to enjoy when the format ends, I would get rid of the HT and just make do with a OLED and a sound bar. That’s what I think of streaming.
Just need to further boost my library of films on disc. That’s no problem.

.. sorry man... quoted the wrong post...

.. if you get rid of the HT, then your physical library will not be worth it as you will not reap the A/V benefits...

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

.. sorry man... quoted the wrong post...

.. if you get rid of the HT, then your physical library will not be worth it as you will not reap the A/V benefits...

That’s what I’m saying. My disc collection makes my HT worthwhile. Streaming is a chill out on the sofa deal, HT is immersive A/V and pure escapism, much like the cinema.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I've largely stopped posting on these threads as, frankly, we all kinds of know where we all stand on the issues of movie theaters, physical media, streaming etc, and the usual suspects just keep rehashing the same discussion over and over..

Its been wash, rinse and repeat since the early days of LaserDisc. Just replace LaserDisc with Blu-ray, replace RCA CED, video cassette, HBO, Showtime with EST, SVOD, AVOD and SMART and you have essentially the same back and forth. Back then it was via private BBS's and CompuServe.

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Its been wash, rinse and repeat since the early days of LaserDisc. Just replace LaserDisc with Blu-ray, replace RCA CED, video cassette, HBO, Showtime with EST, SVOD, AVOD and SMART and you have essentially the same back and forth. Back then it was via private BBS's and CompuServe.

LOL.. I was a SYSOP on a BBS and a CompuServe subscriber... and I really miss the beautiful artwork on gatefold LDs or reading liner notes on LPs...