The Official Energy Speakers Thread

[Cpt_Dylan_Hunt]

Originally Posted by callas01

Actually if you read my thread "speaker window shopping" you will see that it wasn't until I found the Dali's that there are speakers I like terribly more then my Energy C series.. I will be adding an amp and new receiver long before I upgrade speakers. I really think up till you spend $1500 for a pair of speakers there isn't that much that is leap and bounds better. I have heard, Paradigm, Kef, Monitor Audio, B&W, and PSB, and I really feel that the C-series can stand up to them and sound excellent. It is only the Dali Concepts that I have found to be that much better.

I won't be upgrading speakers for a long time. I love what I have. I want to get more out of them and get an amp and a receiver that can drive an amp. I am starting to look at the Sony ES2400 and the Marantz/Denons and an inexpensive amp like the Emos or Adcoms. OR I want to add a ROTEL reciever that has a SICK amp and drive them from that.... HMMM.

I'm surprised you would go with Sony for receivers, Sony doesn't really have a good reputation in that regard. And what's the difference between the ES2400 and the receiver you already have? Just the preouts?

[arrt vandelay]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

Edit: Arrt, for the center you can find bridgeable 2 channel power amps especially in pro audio power amps in the $200 to $300 range. I wish the gfa 545 II were bridgeable. The gfa 555 however is. That might be the best solution Monoblocks can be expensive. The audiosource 5.3 A was discontinued and I was lucky to find a dealer that still had them. That was an experiment because I was rather unsure about getting that one. Well, I sure was in for a surprise!

i think i have located the amp i want for the center-dayton apa150. it's pretty much a copy of an emotiva bpa-1. it can be bridged to output 150 watts into one channel at 8ohms. it fits the space i have available as well. i'm just hesitant to add it yet b/c of power requirements. right now i have my receiver, lcd tv, and amp on the same outlet hooked up through a grounded "smart" surge protector. basically, when my tv turns on, it triggers the adcom on too, pretty sweet for older amps. i'm nervous to add another amp without first having better power management. i'd really love an outlaw monoblock, but those things are $300!

my wife bought me my 545 for my b-day last month for $150, definitely a bargain for what i use it for. i also looked into a behringer a500. that thing looks like an awesome deal, if you get one that's not defective. if memory serves, i think you can bridge it to something like 300-400 watts into 8ohms. i was watching one on ebay that went for just $81, with free shipping!

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by callas01

Actually if you read my thread "speaker window shopping" you will see that it wasn't until I found the Dali's that there are speakers I like terribly more then my Energy C series.. I will be adding an amp and new receiver long before I upgrade speakers. I really think up till you spend $1500 for a pair of speakers there isn't that much that is leap and bounds better. I have heard, Paradigm, Kef, Monitor Audio, B&W, and PSB, and I really feel that the C-series can stand up to them and sound excellent. It is only the Dali Concepts that I have found to be that much better.

I won't be upgrading speakers for a long time. I love what I have. I want to get more out of them and get an amp and a receiver that can drive an amp. I am starting to look at the Sony ES2400 and the Marantz/Denons and an inexpensive amp like the Emos or Adcoms. OR I want to add a ROTEL reciever that has a SICK amp and drive them from that.... HMMM.

Ok, just checked the Dali home site for high end audio dealers around Phoenix. I may pay one or two a visit when I get a chance. One of them is of particular interest to me because they carry Tannoy. It would be interesting to hear how well the Tannoys stack up against Dali. I have been a Tannoy lover for over 20 years now. Now you have a clue as to how old I must be! They have come along way since I own one a pair with dual concentric drivers from reading the news on Tannoy's website. If I ever upgrade to a higher end audio/HT sound, Tannoy will probably be the one for me.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by arrt vandelay

i think i have located the amp i want for the center-dayton apa150. it's pretty much a copy of an emotiva bpa-1. it can be bridged to output 150 watts into one channel at 8ohms. it fits the space i have available as well. i'm just hesitant to add it yet b/c of power requirements. right now i have my receiver, lcd tv, and amp on the same outlet hooked up through a grounded "smart" surge protector. basically, when my tv turns on, it triggers the adcom on too, pretty sweet for older amps. i'm nervous to add another amp without first having better power management. i'd really love an outlaw monoblock, but those things are $300!

my wife bought me my 545 for my b-day last month for $150, definitely a bargain for what i use it for. i also looked into a behringer a500. that thing looks like an awesome deal, if you get one that's not defective. if memory serves, i think you can bridge it to something like 300-400 watts into 8ohms. i was watching one on ebay that went for just $81, with free shipping!

Sorry if it's getting OT here, but I think you're all set then. Yes the dayton apa150 pretty much a clone of the AS 5.3A. I bought the AS 5.3A (no longer available at parts express) because it was $50 less than the apa 150. However, I recommend the Outlaw 2200 m-block for the center even though it's more expensive. That would be my choice now. I bought the AS 5.3A for only $150 but didn't want to pay over twice that for the Outlaw when I wasn't sure how much an improvement I might obtain. The AS 5.3A however does drive the C-C100 extremely well without any audible distortion to well over reference level (in my setup up using my RS SPL meter for calibration, that's at 75 db, which on my yammy's main volume control is -0.5 db). But it runs very hot after a few hours, even if it's idle for two or more hours. It probably has a Class A amp running as hot as it does. The fan is variable and has a thermostat that increases or decreases it's speed. After a couple of movies, I can just barely hear it at it's highest fan speed. I could replace it with a quiter fan though as another option since I really like that amp.

Edit: I read, and I don't recall where it was, that power amps usually already have their own power protection circuitry and are better off running without a surge protector or isobar which can degrade their sound. I run both my gfa 545 II and AS 5.3 A which together may require up to 1000 watts line power off one wall outlet. My PA 120 subs, each having 650 watt amps, are plugged into separate wall outlets. The only sensitive equipment I have that really needs power management is my Sony Bravia LCDTV, Yammy V663, Sony BD player, and a Motorola 6416 III HD cable tuner.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Dylan_Hunt

I'm surprised you would go with Sony for receivers, Sony doesn't really have a good reputation in that regard. And what's the difference between the ES2400 and the receiver you already have? Just the preouts?

People can say what they want. I think Sony is the best or one of them when it comes to post-processing & video processing(Denon does great too). When I matrix, it doesn't lose the HD audio(Onkyo 60X), and it doesn't add or take away anything from the original track, the audio doesn't go up dramatically in sound when you matrix. Sony uses its Studios to reproduce the sound in post processing, so because Sony owns movie studios they use the sound stages they have as the principle of their matrixing.

Sony, Pioneer, Onkyo and Yamaha all test well below their specs, until you get to the Pio elite and the Yammy 1700/1800. People just like to Poop on Sony for whatever reason. The Yammy 663, the vaunted best receiver of last year tested to 47 wpc w/ 5 channels or more... The Pio 1018 tested to 63 wpc, far cry from its 130 stated wpc. So there is fault with everyone... not just Sony.

Yes the 920 is the same as the 2400ES just the 920 doesn't have the Pre-outs and RS232 or zone 2 outputs. But they do share the same amp, power supply and DACs. So the 920 is a very good receiver, I just wish I had pre-outs.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by callas01

People can say what they want. I think Sony is the best or one of them when it comes with post-processing(Denon does great too). When I matrix, it doesn't lose the HD audio(Onkyo 60X), and it doesn't add or take away anything from the original track, the audio doesn't go up dramatically in sound when you matrix. Sony uses its Studios to reproduce the sound in post processing, so because Sony owns movie studios they use the sound stages they have as the principle of their matrixing.

Sony, Pioneer, Onkyo and Yamaha all test well below their specs, until you get to the Pio elite and the Yammy 1700/1800. People just like to Poop on Sony for whatever reason. The Yammy 663, the vaunted best receiver of last year tested to 47 wpc w/ 5 channels or more... The Pio 1018 tested to 63 wpc, far cry from its 130 stated wpc. So there is fault with everyone... not just Sony.

Yes the 920 is the same as the 2400ES just the 920 doesn't have the Pre-outs and RS232 or zone 2 outputs. But they do share the same amp, power supply and DACs. So the 920 is a very good receiver, I just wish I had pre-outs.

Callas, the review I read tested the Yammy V663 at 65 rms watts x 7 (from what I recall), but still in reality that's not much better than 45 watts x 5 anyway. No agrument, no question about it, the Yammys, Sony, Onkyo, Pioneer, really need external power amps. The great feature about Yammys is their pre-amp outs which make that possible unlike the Onky 605/6. I don't know about Sony having pre-outs but I think Pioneer does. My son has a sony AVR, might be the same model as yours, and I think sony sounds just as good as my Yammy. He was howver quite impressed by the sound improvement I got using external power amps.

Another benefit just to keep this discussion on topic, is that using separate power amps to drive each Energy speaker is a sure way to get the most out of each with least distortion and cleanest sound whether it be C-series, CF, RC, or Veritas. I will never buy a receiver again. Instead, my next purchase, if my wife lets me, would be the Emotiva UMC-1 a/v processor (coming soon) and an XPA 5. I would use my adcom gfa 545 II for rear surrounds.

[callas01]

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...63/index7.html

Here is the review... it is 60 wpc with 5 channels and 47 with 7 channels. The 863 test out about the same and the new 665 tested lower. Doesn't surprise me though, the 665 weighs 9 pounds less.

Sony only puts Pre-outs on their ES lines. Pioneer had pre-outs on last years 1018, but removed them on their 1019, which uses a different amp then the 1018 and weighs 10 lbs less. The Onkyos I think tested out at the best of 70 of the 90 stated wpc.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by callas01

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...63/index7.html

Here is the review... it is 60 wpc with 5 channels and 47 with 7 channels. The 863 test out about the same and the new 665 tested lower. Doesn't surprise me though, the 665 weighs 9 pounds less.

Sony only puts Pre-outs on their ES lines. Pioneer had pre-outs on last years 1018, but removed them on their 1019, which uses a different amp then the 1018 and weighs 10 lbs less. The Onkyos I think tested out at the best of 70 of the 90 stated wpc.

I think that's the one. Ok, being a little over a year ago, my memory is off, but 50 or 60 watts, 7/5, doesn't matter much. The point we all agree on it's performance sucked. I was really disappointed after buying it in May, 2008. That I do remember well. My 30 days return policy had expired by the time I read that article. I was stuck with a wimpy AVR. As I said though, and little did I realize it at the time, all was not lost. In fact, it worked out for the better in the end.

[Cpt_Dylan_Hunt]

Callas, I don't really have anything negative to say about Sony receivers myself, you just don't see many people who are itno higher end speakers going for Sony. It's a rare thing that's all.

There seems to be more imo to a receivers overall sound quality than just how much wpc they actually put out.

The Onkyo 606 puts out more power than the Yamaha 663 but the yamaha is said to have better overall sound quality by several review sites.

Anyway here is the CNET review for the Sony 920. (I happen to really like CNET reviews, they get right to the point without obsessing over numbers.) They compare it directly to the Yamaha 663. In the Yamaha 663 review they compare it to the Onkyo.

http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers...?tag=mncol;lst

[Cpt_Dylan_Hunt]

This is a quote from the CNET Yamaha 663 review. Sort of interesting they say this about such an "underpowered" receiver.

"We use the World War II naval battle scenes on the U-571 DVD as a torture test for receivers. The massive power demands required to play the sounds of a series of depth charge explosions have humbled lesser receivers, but the RX-V663 sailed through the challenge with ease. The receiver sounded more powerful than its 95 watts per channel specification would normally indicate; the Yamaha had the sort of big, gutsy sound we associate with more expensive receivers."

My 30 days return policy had expired by the time I read that article. I was stuck with a wimpy AVR.

So in other words, you liked the receiver during that first 30 days untill you read an article?

Hmm

[arrt vandelay]

my rx v765, which is basically the newer 663, did a fine job pushing my c500s(after they were broken-in), my old sony str dg-820 not so much. i had them in a bi-amp/bi-wire configuration, and i actually noticed a difference, sounded pretty good actually. i'm sure the dg920 does a better job than the lower level sonys. if i was receiver shopping today, i think i'd go for a marantz 6003, but that's beside the point...


i really just bought an amp b/c it seemed like the best way to get the most out of the energy's. i like having a receiver as a processor b/c it also has built in amps that can serve as a back-up if my current amp and any i buy in the future go south...

totally unrelated question...does anyone know of a good set of stands for c-100s?

[ZIPPO]

Try these especially the VTI's.

Wood-Tech is made in the USA out of top quality solid kiln dried hardwood. A optional larger top plate can be purchased for bigger speakers. Very good quality, will last forever. Can be purchased at http://www.wood-tech.com/catalog/32/...ty_of_finishes & http://www.racksandstands.com/Speaker-Stands-C88.html. Go with a 31" or 36" stand.

C-100 on a 36" Wood-Tech speaker stand, front view


side view


rear view


OR if you want a heavier stand made out of metal, check out these offerings from VTI Manufacturing( http://www.vtimanufacturing.com/Speaker%20Stands.htm ).

READ REVIEWS
http://www.racksandstands.com/VTI-VSP-VI1044.html ( go with a 29" stand )
http://www.racksandstands.com/VTI-DF-VI1045.html ( go with a 29" or 36" stand )
http://www.racksandstands.com/VTI-UF-VI1047.html ( go with a 29" stand )

C-100 on a 29" VTI speaker stand, front view


side view


rear view


angle view


The top plate is the same dimensions of the C-100, perfect for bookshelf sized speakers


VTI speaker stands are similar in design & quality to speaker stands from Paradigm & B&W but have lower prices.
http://www.paradigm.com/en/pdf/parad...d_brochure.pdf
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1168
http://www.wwstereo.com/#/ecommerce/..._31__0_0_0_-1/

[callas01]

When I bought my Sony I wasn't thinking about External Amps. I was listening to all the major 4, Onkyo, Sony, Yamaha, & Pioneer. My favorite was the Pioneer, that is the one I wanted, but it wouldn't fit on my audio rack, so the next 2 on my list were the Sony and Yamaha. I read a few people say that they thought there was a lack of power from the Yamaha, and everyone on here that had the Sony didn't have that issue. I couldn't tell personally, but I was taking some peoples "more expert" advise. In the end Sony won out because of the familiarity I had with them(my dad has the top of the line ES model, and I had a previous Sony). I was still torn on getting the Pioneer... but the final decision came when there was a 2 day sale on Amazon for $375 for the Sony shipped. The Pioneer and Yamaha were still above $450 at the time. And well.... the kids needed Xmas presents too....

Honestly, they may not have the Burr Brown DACs, but they sound good, very neutral, and have good power. Yes if I could do it over, I would have gotten the Pio 1018 and just re-ran all my speaker wires and redid my whole setup, but like I said I wasn't thinking about external amps at the time.... I still had crappy Sony speakers.

Arrt, the 820 shares the same amp and power supply as the 720, and no they are not very powerful receivers.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Dylan_Hunt

This is a quote from the CNET Yamaha 663 review. Sort of interesting they say this about such an "underpowered" receiver.

"We use the World War II naval battle scenes on the U-571 DVD as a torture test for receivers. The massive power demands required to play the sounds of a series of depth charge explosions have humbled lesser receivers, but the RX-V663 sailed through the challenge with ease. The receiver sounded more powerful than its 95 watts per channel specification would normally indicate; the Yamaha had the sort of big, gutsy sound we associate with more expensive receivers."



So in other words, you liked the receiver during that first 30 days untill you read an article?

Hmm

It was disappointing because I thought I was getting a more powerful receiver. When I was thinking about buying it, I didn't read the specs sheet well enough. That's why I was kicking myself in the butt. But it figures because the power consumption is specified as 400 watts for the USA models. Knowing that the amp isn't 100% efficient, since some power is dissipated as heat, the 57 watts (which X 7 = ca. 400 watts at 0.09% distortion) is really less. If it's 82% efficient, which seems reasonable, then the power rating/channel is around 47 watts at 0.09% distortion. That's what ultimateavmag results and findings were. So, I believed it, and their testing seemed credible enough to me after doing the math. The power supply is the culprit. The c-series aren't the most efficient speakers out there either.

After getting the C-300s (about 3 or 4 months after buying my V663), I noticed after breaking them in that there was some particular times when I would hear strained dialogue coming from the C-C100 when there was dialogue going on during loud action scenes. I was using my Adcom gfa 545 as part of my PC sound system. After I read that the V663 can be used a pre/pro with external power amps, I decided to try it. I fed the front L/R pre-outs to the adcom gfa 545 connected the C-300s. Immediately, my wife and I both noticed that the sound was cleaner and more detailed than it had been before from the C-300s. Ever since that day the adcom gfa 545 has remained connected. That got me thinking that I might get clearer dialogue if I used another power amp to drive the C-C100. I ordered a 150 w at 8 ohms (250 w at 4 ohms) m-block power amp. That turned out to be just the case. The dialogue was cleaner and more distinct no matter how loud the action was. The dialogue just sounded more natural.

Ever since that day, the V663 has only been driving the side surrounds and rear surrounds. I am seriously considering adding another 2 channel power amp for the side surrounds.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by ZIPPO

Try these especially the VTI's.

Wood-Tech is made in the USA out of top quality solid kiln dried hardwood. A optional larger top plate can be purchased for bigger speakers. Very good quality, will last forever. Can be purchased at

Zippo, those are beautiful stands.

I noticed from your photos that you are using port plugs in your C-100s. Are they being positioned pretty close to a wall?

I recently made some DIY center speaker stands for my C-C100 (See my gallery). Even though l have the C-C100 positioned very close to the front wall, I still didn't need port plugs. It doesn't sound boomy at all without them.

[Cpt_Dylan_Hunt]

Originally Posted by callas01

When I bought my Sony I wasn't thinking about External Amps. I was listening to all the major 4, Onkyo, Sony, Yamaha, & Pioneer. My favorite was the Pioneer, that is the one I wanted, but it wouldn't fit on my audio rack, so the next 2 on my list were the Sony and Yamaha. I read a few people say that they thought there was a lack of power from the Yamaha, and everyone on here that had the Sony didn't have that issue. I couldn't tell personally, but I was taking some peoples "more expert" advise. In the end Sony won out because of the familiarity I had with them(my dad has the top of the line ES model, and I had a previous Sony). I was still torn on getting the Pioneer... but the final decision came when there was a 2 day sale on Amazon for $375 for the Sony shipped. The Pioneer and Yamaha were still above $450 at the time. And well.... the kids needed Xmas presents too....

Honestly, they may not have the Burr Brown DACs, but they sound good, very neutral, and have good power. Yes if I could do it over, I would have gotten the Pio 1018 and just re-ran all my speaker wires and redid my whole setup, but like I said I wasn't thinking about external amps at the time.... I still had crappy Sony speakers.

Arrt, the 820 shares the same amp and power supply as the 720, and no they are not very powerful receivers.

Yet, most of the reviews I've seen say the Sony 920 strains significantly more than the Yamaha 663. Note the link I posted previoiusly for an example.

The 663 seems to be picked on much more than it deserves, but I know my HTR 6160, wich is identical in performance to the RX 663, has no problem driving my c-500s or c-c100 center. I have never noticed any strain or unclear dialog once so ever and I can crank them loud enough to hear them 5 houses down the street with no sign of strain.

I'm sure seperate power amps would significantly improve their performance however, and I'm interested in going that route just like rwojtalewicz. Perhaps the fact I'm using only 5 channels now and not 7 makes the power limitations less noticeable to me. But I do NOT feel the Yamaha RX 663/HTR 6160 is so "wimpy" that seperate power amps are absolutely mandatory. Why is it that every review I read that doesn't go into the numbers thinks it sounds plenty powerful with no or little strain ever? Perhaps there is something about the way the power is used (and not just on the speaker end), and not just how much of it there is? I don't know I'm no expert, but something seems off here. The Onkyo 606 supposedly puts out significantly more power than the 663, but I have read reviews stating it struggled in certain movie scenes where the Yamaha 663 does not. Doesn't that matter more than the numbers? Isn't it all about real life performance in the end?

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Dylan_Hunt

Yet, most of the reviews I've seen say the Sony 920 strains significantly more than the Yamaha 663. Note the link I posted previoiusly for an example.

The 663 seems to be picked on much more than it deserves, but I know my HTR 6160, wich is identical in performance to the RX 663, has no problem driving my c-500s or c-c100 center. I have never noticed any strain or unclear dialog once so ever and I can crank them loud enough to hear them 5 houses down the street with no sign of strain.

I'm sure seperate power amps would significantly improve their performance however, and I'm interested in going that route just like rwojtalewicz. But I do NOT feel the Yamaha RX 663/HTR 6160 is so "wimpy" that seperate power amps are absolutely mandatory. Why is it that every review I read that doesn't go into the numbers thinks it sounds plenty powerful with no or little strain ever? Perhaps there is something about the way the power is used (and not just on the speaker end), and not just how much of it there is? I don't know I'm no expert, but something seems off here. The Onkyo 606 supposedly puts out significantly more power than the 663, but I have read reviews stating it struggled in certain movie scenes where the Yamaha 663 does not. Doesn't that matter more than the numbers? Isn't it all about real life performance in the end?

You know. You're thinking along the same lines I am.

I don't have a definitive answer to that either. But that's a very good question.

But here are some of my thoughts:

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned here is room size. My listening area is open to the dinning area and kitchen which are all under the same vaulted ceilings. There's a central hub about 4.5 ft x 3.0 ft x 8 ft tall that divides those areas not counting some archways that come off of it.
The entire area is about 30 ft wide from front to back and 20 ft long under 14 ft vaulted ceilings. That's what both of my subwoofers and the rest of my 7 speakers have to move air in. I don't think my V663 has enough power for such a large room. So, you have to consider room size in the reviews or when we are discussing performance issues here.

Mr. Wilson in his setup (ultimateavmag) tested the V663 in a small 17 ft x 10 ft media room. Now, that really doesn't seem to add up because I think that the sound shouldn't have been so muffled and ill defined as he described it. I would assume that his media room isn't an anechoic room. I must say that the PSB Image T65 towers are quite large for such a small room. I still don't know how he got muffled and ill defined sound from the V663 with those speakers. From what I can tell from his article and his comments under real world performance is that he has a tendency to prefer a brighter sounding system instead of a warmer sounding one (like I do). He would perhaps use the term muffled to describe the sound that I like. He fumbled around a bit with YPAO an the graphic equalizer settings in an attempt to recreate the sound he prefers. The only thing that makes sense in his article is the power output vs percent distortion measurements. Now, I am not bashing his article here. I am only trying to make sense of it.

Another type of measurement that can be useful is 500 ms tone burst test. This might be where the V663's performance is closer to Yamaha's specs (90 w X 7). That test will more closely mimic the real world better than output power vs percent distortion. Although I have no test results references to confirm this, but lets just say perhaps this is where the Yamaha has the edge over the Onkyo 605. Transient response at higher power levels might be more in the V663's domain rather then the Onkyo 606 or 605. I don't have any data that support it. It's just a suggestion. But that just might be hinting at your suggestion on the way that the power is being used between one receiver and another to account for the differences we are hearing or perceiving.

[ZIPPO]

Originally Posted by rwojtalewicz

I noticed from your photos that you are using port plugs in your C-100s. Are they being positioned pretty close to a wall?

I don't plan on using the plugs when I eventually set them up. I store them with the port plugs in & forgot to remove them when taking the stand pictures.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by Cpt_Dylan_Hunt

Yet, most of the reviews I've seen say the Sony 920 strains significantly more than the Yamaha 663. Note the link I posted previoiusly for an example.

The 663 seems to be picked on much more than it deserves, but I know my HTR 6160, wich is identical in performance to the RX 663, has no problem driving my c-500s or c-c100 center. I have never noticed any strain or unclear dialog once so ever and I can crank them loud enough to hear them 5 houses down the street with no sign of strain.

I'm sure seperate power amps would significantly improve their performance however, and I'm interested in going that route just like rwojtalewicz. Perhaps the fact I'm using only 5 channels now and not 7 makes the power limitations less noticeable to me. But I do NOT feel the Yamaha RX 663/HTR 6160 is so "wimpy" that seperate power amps are absolutely mandatory. Why is it that every review I read that doesn't go into the numbers thinks it sounds plenty powerful with no or little strain ever? Perhaps there is something about the way the power is used (and not just on the speaker end), and not just how much of it there is? I don't know I'm no expert, but something seems off here. The Onkyo 606 supposedly puts out significantly more power than the 663, but I have read reviews stating it struggled in certain movie scenes where the Yamaha 663 does not. Doesn't that matter more than the numbers? Isn't it all about real life performance in the end?

Dylan, I never notice that the Sony 920 strains. I have pushed my receiver with all types of audio. I have heard it in large rooms and medium rooms. It is a very good mid level receiver. I had The Matrix, U571, Live Free or Die Hard, Band of Brothers, blus at -5 db's just rocking my 14x20 living room. I have had CDs and music Blus doing the same and I cannot turn them up past -11 bd's or it becomes too loud. AND I LIKE THINGS LOUD. I experience 0 distrotion, and no strain in the reciever. I don't know what people are talking about. I think it is all just a biasness towards their particular Brand.

Also I see a lot of High End shops around me carrying Denon, Marantz and Sony ES models. Never do I see them with Onkyo. A few Pioneer Elites and High End Yamahas, but Mostly Denon and Sony ES.

[Cpt_Dylan_Hunt]

Dylan, I never notice that the Sony 920 strains

The reviews I read, more noteably the CNET one (Like I said before I like CNET reviews), don't really say the Sony 920 sounds like it strains, but they say it sounds like it strains COMPARED to the Yamaha in a direct comparison.

Overall though, the Sony 920 seems to get better ratings than the Yamaha 663, not because of sound qaulity, but because it does pretty much everything else better. I'm sure your receiver is a good one, and I am not disrespecting it.

And I'd really like to get into the power amps for my 6160 aka Rx 663, it's really the only thing I can afford to do to improve my system right now.