Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I'm not going to pre-judge it based on the online copy. The online copy is for people who don't care at all about quality.

When I see it I will decide how I feel about it.

Same here, been that way for me for a very long time about the actual movie and the A/V quality.

In the meantime here is a review of The Abyss by Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits. True Lies review here.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Anyone here besides me with a D-VHS D-Theater player? Found one copy of True Lies here. Bought my copy new (buy.COM) back in the day, only has 5 passes on it. Don't ask, it is not for sale!!!

[t-mel]

I think it is wishful thinking to expect the disc to look drastically different. They come from the same master.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by t-mel

I think it is wishful thinking to expect the disc to look drastically different. They come from the same master.

I avoided the UHD BD of Planes Trains and Automobiles because of all the crabbing about DNR. It has a PQ review on here of 2.5.

The iTunes copy I have is UHD from the "same master" so I had a look at that. I immediately started watching the movie and forgot I'm trying to be critical or this or that. As a result I realized I was most likely wrong to take someone else's word for the PQ and have ordered the disc which I should have tomorrow.

[t-mel]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I avoided the UHD BD of Planes Trains and Automobiles because of all the crabbing about DNR. It has a PQ review on here of 2.5.

The iTunes copy I have is UHD from the "same master" so I had a look at that. I immediately started watching the movie and forgot I'm trying to be critical or this or that. As a result I realized I was most likely wrong to take someone else's word for the PQ and have ordered the disc which I should have tomorrow.

So by watching the stream you decided to buy the disc... How does that discredit what I am saying? It would only make sense if you thought that the stream and disc were wildly different.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by t-mel

So by watching the stream you decided to buy the disc... How does that discredit what I am saying? It would only make sense if you thought that the stream and disc were wildly different.

I never tried to discredit you. I just tried to go check it out with things on hand to see if what you were suggesting was correct.

I was trying to think of an example of a botched transfer and realized I didn't have the disc in hand to check. By your reasoning the disc will be fine for me. Like the T2 disc, ... at least I will still have the one people like better too. I don't remember being bothered by the T2 UHD but I still have the Skynet Blu Ray. (Just checked another thread and people don't like that edition either. oh well. )

Can you present an example where the iTunes version shows flaws that are in the UHD BD?

I'm still planning to watch the True Lies disc and we can see if your idea about the streaming version coming from the same master holds up.

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Anyone here besides me with a D-VHS D-Theater player?

Just you and James Cameron. Best way to watch a lot of titles though.

[bhampton]

I watched Leave the World Behind on Netflix and the ATMOS track is very fun and the Tesla scene is must see.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1274774...2520the%2520wo

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I watched Leave the World Behind on Netflix and the ATMOS track is very fun and the Tesla scene is must see.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1274774...2520the%2520wo

I quite liked the movie.

[t-mel]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I never tried to discredit you. I just tried to go check it out with things on hand to see if what you were suggesting was correct.

I was trying to think of an example of a botched transfer and realized I didn't have the disc in hand to check. By your reasoning the disc will be fine for me. Like the T2 disc, ... at least I will still have the one people like better too. I don't remember being bothered by the T2 UHD but I still have the Skynet Blu Ray. (Just checked another thread and people don't like that edition either. oh well. )

Can you present an example where the iTunes version shows flaws that are in the UHD BD?

I'm still planning to watch the True Lies disc and we can see if your idea about the streaming version coming from the same master holds up.

Sadly no since I haven't bought things on iTunes. I presume that the digital version of T2 is from the same master as the UHD.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by bhampton

I avoided the UHD BD of Planes Trains and Automobiles because of all the crabbing about DNR. It has a PQ review on here of 2.5.

The iTunes copy I have is UHD from the "same master" so I had a look at that. I immediately started watching the movie and forgot I'm trying to be critical or this or that. As a result I realized I was most likely wrong to take someone else's word for the PQ and have ordered the disc which I should have tomorrow.

I actually just picked this up during some of the Black Friday sales.

Though while having it on UHD is nice, I got it mainly for the new bonus features.

[deatheats]

Funnily enough, Planes, Trains and Automobiles was the last Steelbook I was able to order from Zavvi UK before they ceased shipping to the US. Finally got around to watching it on Thanksgiving, expecting the worst based on PQ reviews. I was pleasantly surprised, maybe not an ideal transfer but not a digital mess either.

[Uptight]

You'll own NOTHING and be HAPPY! - YouTube

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by kfbkfb

I was wondering if film grain reduction systems (such as DNR) make films easier to code (i. e. lower minimum required data rate for the video) to make streaming available to more potential customers in rural areas with limited capacity internet connections.


Kirk Bayne

yes. it is not that they lower minimum required data rate, that is defined at the encoding time. But when you encode the film the encoder (machine) has to decide do I group these NxN pixels together and call them an NxN block and treat the block like one giant pixel that only has one colour or not.

If DNR makes all the pixels in the NxN block the same colour then the encoder can easily decide to make it an NxN block, and might not decide to change some other area into an NxN block that the DNR decided is probably right to have different coloured pixels.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

These movies in 4K, using these new masters, have recently been released digitally. For the record, I have not watched them, so I am not making a first-hand judgement. But based on what others here have said...

While the quality of a 4K disc will be better than the quality of a 4K stream based on the same film transfer, it doesn't mean that the 4K stream is completely without merit. It still can serve as a baseline of what to expect.

If DNR has been applied to these digital releases, then it stands to reason that this will most likely be the case.

this is my issues with this conversation

1) DNR is not an absolute, it is a filter that can be applied to varied extents

2) dNR could be applied (to be complete)
---a) digital camera
---b)
------i) when scanning film (to make it smaller and easier for digital correction)
------ii) when the digital film re-mastering is being done (makes it easier)
------iii) on the studio film master (can make the files smaller suince most have light none destructive compression)
---c)
------i) to create the digital master that is sent to streaming providers (smaller files)
------ii) by the streamingg provider before they make the encoding
------iii) if that 8x8 block is made one colour by DNR or that 8x8 block is made one colour because of compression it is impossible to say so it might not be a DNR issue
---d) TV and other devices can have their own filters and settings that reduce "noise"
I don't think we are talking a , all the ones that fall in c would apply to both (assuming digital and physical use the same digital studio master) c) would only apply to the stream and d might or might not apply to both but if it is the case and you like noise change the settings on the equipment.

3) a director/studio might be able to guide the restoration firm(turn DNR to 11 because I want it smooth turn DNR to 0 because I want to keep that film look) and they might get to see and complain if not happy with the final result. But they are not usually the ones doing the restoration themselves.

4) IMHO if someone says I saw the digital stream and
---a) I did not like the plot or the acting it makes perfect sense not to be interested in the physical copy
---b) I did not like some changes done during re-mastering makes a lot of sense
---c) I did not like the DNR or other things that might not be in the physical copy does not make sense. At best wait for reviews and see what others have to say about the physical copy.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

I'm not going to reply to every point, but mainly the ones that are relevant to my stance on this and the point that I was trying to make

Originally Posted by Anthony P

this is my issues with this conversation

1) DNR is not an absolute, it is a filter that can be applied to varied extents

I do agree that it is not an absolute. It can be used to varying degrees, and in some cases, when applied sparingly, it works. My point is that there is some degree of history with James Cameron and DNR that many do not look upon favorably.

---c) I did not like the DNR or other things that might not be in the physical copy does not make sense. At best wait for reviews and see what others have to say about the physical copy.

I see the point that you are making, and I don't entirely disagree with it.

But my point is simply that given that these 4K masters are new/recent, the same core masters (and any processing, such as DNR, that has been applied to them) are most likely being used for both these recent digital releases and the upcoming physical releases.

If, for example, a movie has been available digitally for quite some time, and an announcement was made that a new 4K master had recently been completed an a new physical release was coming using that master, I would not assume that digital release to be a good basis for what to expect from this new physical release since it has been around presumably since before this 4K master was completed.

As for the point of waiting for reviews for the physical release, I do otherwise agree. I'm not 100%, beyond the shadow of a doubt concluding that these physical releases will be a disaster based on what we have now. I'm hoping that things pan out for the better, and I hope the reviews will be good. But within reason, given that we know the current digital releases are based on these recent 4K masters, it is not unreasonable to speculate in the meantime.


And honestly in my case, unless the end results are SO bad that they are ridiculously unwatchable (which I doubt will be the case), I most likely will be picking up The Abyss and True Lies regardless, even if the reviews of them end up being so-so. I don't even have those movies on DVD, and I'd like to add them to my collection, so the reviews would need to be especially awful for me to pass on them entirely.

Aliens is more of a gray area in this regard. I have the box set of the original 4 movies on Blu-Ray already, so if the reviews of the new release end up not being very good, I will likely just stick with what I have.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

But my point is simply that given that these 4K masters are new/recent, the same core masters (and any processing, such as DNR, that has been applied to them) are most likely being used for both these recent digital releases and the upcoming physical releases.

agree no where in my post did I say they used different studio masters or that we should assume that they did. The point, to put it differently, is that if someone watches the stream (or physical media for that matter) it has been seriously transformed again during the compression. It can be that what the person (since it is personal) finds objectionable in the stream is not there in the master and might not be there in the physical media which technically needs a bit less transformation after the fact.

Let's say Betty and Steve write an exam and we know Betty does better then Steve. If we find out Steve passed that t mean Betty passed, on the other hand if we know Steve failed that does not tell us anything, Betty could have passed But she could also have failed (just be a bit closer to a pass than Steve)

If someone finds the stream looks good enough that most likely means they will find the physical copy from the same studio master good enough and if they they see the studio master and it does not look good enough then the physical media won't look good enough. But if the studio master looks good or the stream looks bad that would mean almost nothing for the physical media.

[russweiss1]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

agree no where in my post did I say they used different studio masters or that we should assume that they did. The point, to put it differently, is that if someone watches the stream (or physical media for that matter) it has been seriously transformed again during the compression. It can be that what the person (since it is personal) finds objectionable in the stream is not there in the master and might not be there in the physical media which technically needs a bit less transformation after the fact.

Let's say Betty and Steve write an exam and we know Betty does better then Steve. If we find out Steve passed that t mean Betty passed, on the other hand if we know Steve failed that does not tell us anything, Betty could have passed But she could also have failed (just be a bit closer to a pass than Steve)

If someone finds the stream looks good enough that most likely means they will find the physical copy from the same studio master good enough and if they they see the studio master and it does not look good enough then the physical media won't look good enough. But if the studio master looks good or the stream looks bad that would mean almost nothing for the physical media.

My only question is, Who are Steve and Betty, and what exam did they take?

[cheez avenger]

The Creator 4K disc was epic. One of my favorite films of the year shines on 4K disc.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

The Creator 4K disc was epic. One of my favorite films of the year shines on 4K disc.

Fully expected it to. Can’t wait to watch in January.