Offical Neon Genesis Evangelion Info/Update Thread

[InuYashaCrusade]

Originally Posted by gloomranger

I anticipate at least two announcements for August 30th: another LE that is not only shelf friendly, but will also contain the Classic Version discs in blue amaray cases with a rigid box. The other will be a standard release that carries only the Official Version discs and will sport a blue amaray case and a slipcover. Those will be my predictions for Monday.

I hope you're right. I will cancel my Ultimate Edition preorder so fast if so. I only preordered to be on the safe side.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Yami

I'm baffled that this includes the video format version of EoE, probably the most pointless of all the alternate edits, but not Death and Rebirth or Death(True) or the on-air versions of 21-24

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Although to be honest, the original Death and also Death[True] would be almost as pointless to include on a Western release as the "Video Format" version of EoE. I own all three versions of Death on disc, so I can say that first-hand.

At least Rebirth had a lot of noticeable differences in its animation and original audio track as compared to the corresponding section of the "cleaned-up" EoE, which makes it interesting from a historical perspective. That, and the cliffhanger ending with the MP Evas circling overhead while Tamashii no Refrain starts playing is still quite effective IMO.

Not that the West ever got to see those animation/audio differences though, as the Manga Entertainment release of D&R replaced all its footage (except the title cards and ED credit sequence) with the corresponding segments of EoE instead without telling anyone.

[omgitsgodzilla]

Originally Posted by Naiera

wat



WAT

It sounds like they're mostly talking about the subjective appeal of the image more than the technical merits -- aesthetics, not numbers. Basically saying the older analogue masters, in SD and without extensive digital cleanup, played on a CRT display with good hardware, would be more appealing to them than the HD masters on a modern high-end display. Not really difficult to understand, even if I'm not sure I'd agree.

There is a less subjective argument to be made about authenticity, though -- those older masters on a CRT display would've been how just about anyone watching Eva when it aired in the '90s would have seen it. Doesn't make it the one correct way to watch it per se, but you could absolutely say it's more authentic in that sense.

[rayeknor]

Eva before the remaster was never a good looking show. I know there are people out there probably writing letters by chipping at stone tablets, like the vinyl vs CD debacle. The only place in pop culture I think such ideas has merit is say 35mm and 70mm cinema vs digital on the big screen.

The whole "authentic" argument is very far from my experience as I'm old enough to have seen it both ways, even nostalgia glasses cant help - after the 2003 remaster Eva looks great, before it was mediocre at best, comparing it to the material produced at the same time. 80s and 90s was pretty much the pinnacle of hand drawn animation technique and creativity versus the mostly bland and boring or over the top CG assisted material put out today.

[Member-571539]

Originally Posted by InuYashaCrusade

I hope you're right. I will cancel my Ultimate Edition preorder so fast if so. I only preordered to be on the safe side.

I suspect Neon Genesis Evangelion will follow Anime Limited’s releases of Gundam Seed.

[gundamcero]

Originally Posted by gloomranger

I suspect Neon Genesis Evangelion will follow Anime Limited’s releases of Gundam Seed.

If so perfect.

[GeoffOliver]

The only time I would prefer a DVD is if a show was either shot on SD video (like some older sitcoms) or animated in SD digipaint. If it's possible to achieve a true HD master (like Eva, where the 16mm original camera negative can be scanned in HD), then I would definitely prefer a Blu-ray (although I do own some decent upscales of SD material like Death Note). I know it's not "the same" viewing experience as it was when originally broadcast, but it's still taken from the original source and is usually a massive improvement. I would never own another CRT since they're so heavy, bulky, and are a huge step down from what I've been used to for the last decade+. I still have my VCR for VHS tapes that I don't want to part with (usually home movies, stuff taped from TV, etc), and while those look much better on CRTs, I don't watch enough to justify using an ancient TV. It's the same with some older DVDs I have that are clearly made for CRTs. I'm not watching those for the quality, so as long as they're watchable on what I've got, I'm good.

Otherwise, I would only get a DVD if there is no Blu-ray nor realistic hope for one, if the DVD has features that the Blu-ray doesn't (like Eva will), or if the Blu-rays have a crap remaster (like Sailor Moon).

[Naiera]

Originally Posted by omgitsgodzilla

It sounds like they're mostly talking about the subjective appeal of the image more than the technical merits -- aesthetics, not numbers. Basically saying the older analogue masters, in SD and without extensive digital cleanup, played on a CRT display with good hardware, would be more appealing to them than the HD masters on a modern high-end display. Not really difficult to understand, even if I'm not sure I'd agree.

There is a less subjective argument to be made about authenticity, though -- those older masters on a CRT display would've been how just about anyone watching Eva when it aired in the '90s would have seen it. Doesn't make it the one correct way to watch it per se, but you could absolutely say it's more authentic in that sense.

Eva was created in much higher quality than what people could see in the 90s. It’s not an SD digipaint show. The remastered and very objectively much better high definition version is what it’s supposed to look like. Watching it on a CRT in VHS or whatever is purely nostalgia and has nothing to do with being more correct or true.

[professorwho]

Eva’s restoration is kinda crap (blurry, degrained, poor colour grading, etc) at points, so there are actual reasons why one would prefer it on DVD, mainly colour. The Blu-ray is objectively wrong at points using animation cels as reference, while the older releases are closer.

Now, obviously the Blu-ray is far superior on a technical level even if it has a disappointing restoration, but there is merit to also watching the older restorations. I’d probably watch the BD most of the times, but sometimes it’s nice to watch an older master and see how it looks.

[snowmint]

Yeah, the remastered(except ep16) look decent!

[svenge]

Originally Posted by rayeknor

Eva before the remaster was never a good looking show. I know there are people out there probably writing letters by chipping at stone tablets, like the vinyl vs CD debacle. The only place in pop culture I think such ideas has merit is say 35mm and 70mm cinema vs digital on the big screen.

The whole "authentic" argument is very far from my experience as I'm old enough to have seen it both ways, even nostalgia glasses cant help - after the 2003 remaster Eva looks great, before it was mediocre at best, comparing it to the material produced at the same time. 80s and 90s was pretty much the pinnacle of hand drawn animation technique and creativity versus the mostly bland and boring or over the top CG assisted material put out today.

Anyone looking for a truly "authentic" Evangelion experience should have bought the 2015 "Archives of Evangelion" DVD set to begin with. You can see how truly jittery the spliced scene transitions are, not to mention the fact that the broadcast sponsor telops after the OP and next episode preview are left intact.

[Naiera]

I am not disappointed with the Eva restoration

[psychomugs]

The medium is the message; they invariably had to account for whatever setup a majority of the viewers would see it on.
Anno even played with this in the earliest home releases, regarding the in-real-life theater scene in EoE:

Originally Posted by Anno Hideaki

So I thought as one of the ways to make the viewer aware of their own reality would be to use a mirror. The footage of the audience in the theatre part was the image of a mirror. I used a sort of very dark screen when I release it on VHS, LD and DVD. If the screen was black, it would reflect your face as you watched it.

In line with the show's themes of subjective interpretation, how it was "meant" to be seen depends on the person. On a CRT in Japanese with no subtitles with commercial breaks and sponsored messages is subjectively authentic.

[kevers7290]

Originally Posted by svenge

Anyone looking for a truly "authentic" Evangelion experience should have bought the 2015 "Archives of Evangelion" DVD set to begin with. You can see how truly jittery the spliced scene transitions are, not to mention the fact that the broadcast sponsor telops after the OP and next episode preview are left intact.

[Show spoiler]

What is the difference between the "archives box" and the "provisional box?" (linked below)

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/NEON-G...0007LLA9&psc=1

[Spoofer]

Originally Posted by rayeknor

Eva before the remaster was never a good looking show. I know there are people out there probably writing letters by chipping at stone tablets, like the vinyl vs CD debacle. The only place in pop culture I think such ideas has merit is say 35mm and 70mm cinema vs digital on the big screen.

The whole "authentic" argument is very far from my experience as I'm old enough to have seen it both ways, even nostalgia glasses cant help - after the 2003 remaster Eva looks great, before it was mediocre at best, comparing it to the material produced at the same time. 80s and 90s was pretty much the pinnacle of hand drawn animation technique and creativity versus the mostly bland and boring or over the top CG assisted material put out today.

I don't follow this at all. You start off talking about the quality of the scan, but then end up talking about animation techniques and creativity. Which are we talking about? If it's about animation quality, how did it suddenly go from "mediocre" to "great" during the cleanup? And how was Evangelion at all "mediocre" in 1995 in comparison to other television anime at the time, or even many films and OVAs?

[omgitsgodzilla]

Originally Posted by Naiera

Eva was created in much higher quality than what people could seen in the 90s. It’s not an SD digipaint show. The remastered and very objectively much better high definition version is what it’s supposed to look like. Watching it on a CRT in VHS or whatever is purely nostalgia and has nothing to do with being more correct or true.

Obviously I'm not saying that the HD remasters shouldn't exist, or that it would be fine if they didn't. If current viewing technology can provide a more accurate reflection of what something can look like at its best, in the form in which it was originally created, regardless of how it would actually have been seen at the time, I'd say that's a good thing. No film was exhibited on its original camera negative, but I don't object to restorations from elements like that.

Where it gets a little hazy is the idea of what it's "supposed to look like," or how it is/was "supposed to" be seen. NGE was made on film, but no one at the time outside of GAINAX was seeing it on film, and the creators knew that. They were making something that they knew would ultimately be shown via a standard-definition video signal; it was intended for that method of distribution. If a technically superior method had been available, no doubt it would have been created with that in mind. But that's the thing -- home video releases of theatrical films, HD transfers of old TV shows, they're all substituting different technologies and avenues of exhibition for the one the work in question was originally intended for. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them not the same.

That's why there's still some value in older, technically inferior presentations and technologies, even when there's newer ones available. That's why there's some value in scans of theatrical prints of films even when restorations from earlier-generation elements exist -- it's not the most uncompromised possible representation of the original source, but it is in certain respects closer to how it would really have been seen by the original audience. It's about how it was, as opposed to how it can be now -- which option is more correct depends on the criteria you're working with.

I know that's kind of a lot for a forum post about an anime, but evidently Studio Khara sees the value in that sort of thing, considering that they reissued the original SD broadcast masters on DVD alongside the Blu-ray box in 2015.

Basically, Hydra was expressing a personal preference about something to which there isn't necessarily one definitive correct answer. I wouldn't personally prefer to watch Eva the same way by default, but I can see the point of doing it and I would be interested in watching it that way sometime.

[omgitsgodzilla]

Originally Posted by kevers7290

What is the difference between the "archives box" and the "provisional box?" (linked below)

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/NEON-G...0007LLA9&psc=1

The Archives box contains the original broadcast masters from the '90s; that box looks like it contains the 2015 remaster.

[kevers7290]

Originally Posted by omgitsgodzilla

The Archives box contains the original broadcast masters from the '90s; that box looks like it contains the 2015 remaster.

Thanks!

[professorwho]

Originally Posted by omgitsgodzilla

Obviously I'm not saying that the HD remasters shouldn't exist, or that it would be fine if they didn't. If current viewing technology can provide a more accurate reflection of what something can look like at its best, in the form in which it was originally created, regardless of how it would actually have been seen at the time, I'd say that's a good thing. No film was exhibited on its original camera negative, but I don't object to restorations from elements like that.

Where it gets a little hazy is the idea of what it's "supposed to look like," or how it is/was "supposed to" be seen. NGE was made on film, but no one at the time outside of GAINAX was seeing it on film, and the creators knew that. They were making something that they knew would ultimately be shown via a standard-definition video signal; it was intended for that method of distribution. If a technically superior method had been available, no doubt it would have been created with that in mind. But that's the thing -- home video releases of theatrical films, HD transfers of old TV shows, they're all substituting different technologies and avenues of exhibition for the one the work in question was originally intended for. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them not the same.

That's why there's still some value in older, technically inferior presentations and technologies, even when there's newer ones available. That's why there's some value in scans of theatrical prints of films even when restorations from earlier-generation elements exist -- it's not the most uncompromised possible representation of the original source, but it is in certain respects closer to how it would really have been seen by the original audience. It's about how it was, as opposed to how it can be now -- which option is more correct depends on the criteria you're working with.

When I said that older versions were worth keeping and watching, I was mainly talking about colour grading and other restoration errors, but now you’re just talking out of your a$$. By that logic, forget Blu-ray and 4K for older anime, let’s just watch them in the same crappy quality they aired in because that’s how they were “intended” to be seen. Yes, every restoration is technically revisionist in that higher quality sources are used than what was shown in cinemas or on TV, but what’s the problem there?

[Show spoiler]It is technically impossible to even replicate the broadcast version of Evangelion, even with the nice Archival DVDs, because it’s a digital DVD and not an analog broadcast, so you can’t even go “all the way” in that regard. Only VHS and LD would work, but even then, the quality is much better on LD than broadcasts, and VHS is worse, so this perfect middle ground needed is impossible.

Eva threads were a mistake. It shows people’s true colours for better or worse.

[omgitsgodzilla]

Originally Posted by professorwho

When I said that older versions were worth keeping and watching, I was mainly talking about colour grading and other restoration errors, but now you’re just talking out of your a$$. By that logic, forget Blu-ray and 4K for older anime, let’s just watch them in the same crappy quality they aired in because that’s how they were “intended” to be seen. Yes, every restoration is technically revisionist in that higher quality sources are used than what was shown in cinemas or on TV, but what’s the problem there?

Not only did I not say that, I explicitly said the opposite of that.

Originally Posted by omgitsgodzilla

Obviously I'm not saying that the HD remasters shouldn't exist, or that it would be fine if they didn't. If current viewing technology can provide a more accurate reflection of what something can look like at its best, in the form in which it was originally created, regardless of how it would actually have been seen at the time, I'd say that's a good thing. No film was exhibited on its original camera negative, but I don't object to restorations from elements like that.

Originally Posted by omgitsgodzilla

...there isn't necessarily one definitive correct answer. I wouldn't personally prefer to watch Eva the same way by default, but I can see the point of doing it and I would be interested in watching it that way sometime.

My entire point is that there isn't one definitive correct way to watch the show. There are arguments to be made both for new restorations that surpass what a contemporary audience would have seen, and for approximating the limitations of how they would have seen it. I usually prefer the former, but I can appreciate the latter. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm saying the latter is a superior or inherently more correct approach.