Third Window Films Discussion Thread

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by darry

I know it's not ideal (from anyones point of view) but couldn't you just release movies without extras instead of paying for them?

Besides that, I find it incredibly strange that any child would have access to any of these extras without the knowledge of an adult. It's not like they seek out indie cinema or would even see this stuff accidentally. It's just dumb. They're saving 'no-one' from harm.

do you think that if we released films without extras every single customer woud pay the same as the price originally charged for discs with extras?

Do you think that without extras people wouldn't buy discs from overseas at slightly cheaper prices or in extreme cases download illegally?

these are very real examples of what could happen if films were released barebones. Maybe a few people wouldn't care, but enough might be swayed by the above responses to not buy from us and therefore cause damage

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by NorthSea0il

It's been a while since I've bought anything from Third Window Films, hope I've made up for it now though.
Finally ordered Tokyo Fist, also pre-ordered The Story of Yonosuke, Pluto and just now Lesson of Evil Pity Shady wasn't released on BD, would have also ordered that

Third Window Films is one of my favourite labels, I always try my best to support you guys, I hope you continue for many years to come, bringing us great films from the far East.

thank you so much, hope you enjoy!

Yeah, probably would have been good to release Shady on BD, but many people requested Yonosuke on BD so chose to release that instead. You really must understand how extremely expensive it is to release on BD versus DVD, so we can only do a few times a year.

Though, SHADY has not been released in any other format in the world, and will not be released on BD in any other country, so it's your choice whether you want to see a film or not at all, so maybe DVD may be OK to watch a great film you'll have no chance to otherwise?

[huntauk]

Had a nose through the Third Window catalogue and pulled the trigger on the Tetsuo double bill via amazon. Haven't seen them before but Pro-B's glowing review plus a bit of reading up online and I'm looking forward to watching these.

[Skog]

Pre-ordered Yonosuke. I know that was the main concern but also pre-ordered Pluto and even Lesson of Evil for good measure.

[deepbreathsanddeath]

I have shady ordered but I'd be lying if I said it didn't bum me out that I have to watch it on DVD. I wish you weren't having a financially tough time, Adam. There's some really fantastic films only getting released on DVD by you guys that I'm aching to see on blu-ray. I still buy many of your DVDs to support third window films but it sucks.

Have you considered doing a poll with all your DVD only titles and asking the customers which one they most want upgraded to blu-ray? Or would that just be pointless because it's not really in the realm of possibility yet and if you could've, you already would've?

[darry]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

do you think that if we released films without extras every single customer woud pay the same as the price originally charged for discs with extras?

Do you think that without extras people wouldn't buy discs from overseas at slightly cheaper prices or in extreme cases download illegally?

these are very real examples of what could happen if films were released barebones. Maybe a few people wouldn't care, but enough might be swayed by the above responses to not buy from us and therefore cause damage

I guess i'm one of the ones that wouldn't care. I've never watched an extra (apart from the Matrix Revolutions skit with Will Ferrell). I guess it will kill the collectors and, ultimately, the avid cinema fan who's really into the behind the scenes stuff. I would still buy barebones though, in fact, pretty much all of the ones I buy are barebones anyway, seeing as I can't speak, read or write Korean, Chinese or Japanese. I could be wrong but I would have thought it would have been cheaper for locals, UK that is, to buy from Third window either way. Even at 13 or 14 pounds it's still cheaper than buying from Korea or China.

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by deepbreathsanddeath

I have shady ordered but I'd be lying if I said it didn't bum me out that I have to watch it on DVD. I wish you weren't having a financially tough time, Adam. There's some really fantastic films only getting released on DVD by you guys that I'm aching to see on blu-ray. I still buy many of your DVDs to support third window films but it sucks.

Have you considered doing a poll with all your DVD only titles and asking the customers which one they most want upgraded to blu-ray? Or would that just be pointless because it's not really in the realm of possibility yet and if you could've, you already would've?

yeah done polls before, as per Yonosuke which was originally going to be DVD only and polled to bring to blu-ray, and many people said yes, but unfortunately even with the recent support for it, it will still fall WAY short of what's needed and looks like we'll be taking a big hit on it

As studios sell their blu-rays so cheap i think many people don't fully realise just how expensive it is for blu-ray, it's really in another league, hence the reasons indies don't release on blu-ray.

For upgrades, that, for the most part, never works. In a case like Love Exposure the original release was such a massive seller and everybody had been waiting for blu-ray, so when it came out it was massive, but then again in the cases of Memories of Matsuko and Kamikaze Girls, despite both being big DVD sellers, retrospective blu-ray releases didn't work. Usually people won't double dip, and in a market so niche if you've exhausted your options with the film itself then it's hard to go past that. Love Exposure keeps on finding new audiences so it worked well upgrading, but most titles have peaked so a retrospective blu-ray doesn't work.

We're not talking about a thing like Arrow who can release blu-ray upgrades as they are mainly releasing english language genre titles or titles which have a huge spectrum so they'll always have a market of people who haven't seen the film in the first place and therefore don't need to count on double-dipping, but for us the playing field is MUCH smaller as we deal with such a niche type.

Yes, it was unfortunate to not have released SHADY on blu-ray, and if I could go back in time i would choose to release SHADY on blu-ray instead of Yonosuke (especially considering the film's wildly different running times), but it's hard to gauge reaction as Yonosuke has been well-known for a while since it's a film from a director who has had work out in the UK before plus Yonosuke had a large internet presence due to its big release in Japan, international festival screenings and awards, whilst Shady had ZERO internet presence, due to it being a first time director, barely played in any film festivals, not released anywhere else in the world, with an unknown cast and barely any internet reviews. In fact it's such a small film that even those interviews on the disc were done at my house! I mean have you even heard of such a small, unknown film being released on blu-ray ever before? It did sell very well opening week, but all the sales were last minute so hindsight is a wonderful thing as in the first place it seemed much more of a risk on blu-ray.

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by darry

I guess i'm one of the ones that wouldn't care. I've never watched an extra (apart from the Matrix Revolutions skit with Will Ferrell). I guess it will kill the collectors and, ultimately, the avid cinema fan who's really into the behind the scenes stuff. I would still buy barebones though, in fact, pretty much all of the ones I buy are barebones anyway, seeing as I can't speak, read or write Korean, Chinese or Japanese. I could be wrong but I would have thought it would have been cheaper for locals, UK that is, to buy from Third window either way. Even at 13 or 14 pounds it's still cheaper than buying from Korea or China.

it would be nice if all customers are like yourself regarding barebones, but maybe you're a bit older that most of our customers?

I think VHS generation could take such a view as it used to be that the only way one could watch an asian film was a 3rd or 4th generation copy as that was the only way to see the film itself, so it was more about just watching the film than anything else. I think now though that special features mean a lot, but that doesn't mean they are actually watched.

If you look at Eureka, they only became so renowned when they started making nice packages with loads of extras and booklets, despite the fact that many might not watch the extras, but it's something that a customer would feel is more bang for his buck and feels that the distributor is putting for of an effort in. Eureka actually used to release barebones editions of many titles and they didn't sell

i think it's more about appearance than anything else. You'll hear a lot of people slag off companies who put out barebone discs as they feel the company is doing the film a disservice by not putting the effort in. I could be wrong, but it seems that way to me

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by Skog

Pre-ordered Yonosuke. I know that was the main concern but also pre-ordered Pluto and even Lesson of Evil for good measure.

thanks!!! Hope you like them all! Great variety of films too!

[nitin]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

it would be nice if all customers are like yourself regarding barebones, but maybe you're a bit older that most of our customers?

I think VHS generation could take such a view as it used to be that the only way one could watch an asian film was a 3rd or 4th generation copy as that was the only way to see the film itself, so it was more about just watching the film than anything else. I think now though that special features mean a lot, but that doesn't mean they are actually watched.

If you look at Eureka, they only became so renowned when they started making nice packages with loads of extras and booklets, despite the fact that many might not watch the extras, but it's something that a customer would feel is more bang for his buck and feels that the distributor is putting for of an effort in. Eureka actually used to release barebones editions of many titles and they didn't sell

i think it's more about appearance than anything else. You'll hear a lot of people slag off companies who put out barebone discs as they feel the company is doing the film a disservice by not putting the effort in. I could be wrong, but it seems that way to me

I think this is true unfortunately. I probably watch a few more special features than darry but, like him, I would buy a barebones release. However, I think people like us would definitely be the minority and people feel better putting up money for a loaded release, reagrdless of how much of the extras they watch.

Anyway, I recently ordered my first bunch of Third Window discs (Confessions, Cold fish and Kotoko). Keen to see what they are like.

[deepbreathsanddeath]

That's lame of them. People ought not bother voting or requesting if they aren't going to put their money where their mouth is. I suppose it gives them a false sense of relevancy and importance when they give their two cents.

Did you conduct this poll on Facebook only? If so, that was a mistake. Facebook is great but Blu-ray.com and instagram are better places to poll and get advice on what we want. In future I'd at least do a poll on blu-ray.com where you know people are primarily interested in buying blu-rays.

Instagram has a terrific film buff community too. It's large and heaps of users on there actually buy blu-rays and DVDs rather than just saying they will (Facebook). Plenty of people from blu-ray.com use it also.

The fact that you deal in obscure Asian cinema makes you quite a niche label. If sales aren't as good as you'd like, perhaps you need an edge that gives collectors MORE of an incentive to buy your products.

What I mean by that is, perhaps you should limit each release to 2000 or 3000 copies. I hear you mentioning that certain titles only sell 1 or 2 copies a month.

Limiting and numbering each title would make those on fencers just jump on it. Much fewer people would wait for considerable price drops.

When something is limited (and especially numbered. Collectors love numbered limited products), people tend to just go for it for fear of ultimately missing out. I've personally done it a few times.

Also I'm not sure if it would benefit you much but Criterion's recent decision to release blu-ray/DVD combo packs and completely ceasing production of DVD releases could be an interesting prospect for you to consider.

Obviously if it's a DVD only title then it would be a DVD release but if it's a title also released on blu-ray, why not cut out the cost of DVD cases, covers and chuck the DVD disc in with the blu-ray?

Considering how few copies you seem to sell of certain titles, is it really worth worrying about people not having to upgrade from DVD to blu-ray later? Not really. People hardly upgrade from DVD to blu-ray with obscure Asian cinema. They either get one or the other and then that's it unless it's a masterpiece or a cult classic of sorts. Making combo packs the only option to get either format would just ensure you're moving product.

I can't imagine how tough it must be to try and gauge which ones will sell the best on blu-ray and I'm sure you've considered most of what I've recommended already but either way, I hope it's helpful. Third Window Films is one of my favourite labels and one of the only cases where I'll still buy DVDs despite how much I wish it was on blu-ray.

[deepbreathsanddeath]

... Didn't realize I wrote so much. Please don't feel obligated to give a lengthy reply.

[logboy]

Originally Posted by thirdwindowfilms

it would be nice if all customers are like yourself regarding barebones, but maybe you're a bit older that most of our customers?

I think VHS generation could take such a view as it used to be that the only way one could watch an asian film was a 3rd or 4th generation copy as that was the only way to see the film itself, so it was more about just watching the film than anything else. I think now though that special features mean a lot, but that doesn't mean they are actually watched.

If you look at Eureka, they only became so renowned when they started making nice packages with loads of extras and booklets, despite the fact that many might not watch the extras, but it's something that a customer would feel is more bang for his buck and feels that the distributor is putting for of an effort in. Eureka actually used to release barebones editions of many titles and they didn't sell

i think it's more about appearance than anything else. You'll hear a lot of people slag off companies who put out barebone discs as they feel the company is doing the film a disservice by not putting the effort in. I could be wrong, but it seems that way to me

i'm a barebones fan. i'd of the age that makes me effectively just want a chance to see a film, as you suggest. too many films going unseen to be bothered about more time and effort on what are too frequently sub-par token gesture featurettes. more of an issue with prolific asian countries than cinema from european countries though.

the best extras seem to come from companies appealing to a more academic edge to what they watch. for a company releasing anything but known-classics i guess the most effective extra is the commentary track - everything that forms part of the surrounding story can be condensed into audio - or in the booklet, where it can be read. neither of these are covered by BBFC licensing fees, as far as i know.

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by deepbreathsanddeath

That's lame of them. People ought not bother voting or requesting if they aren't going to put their money where their mouth is. I suppose it gives them a false sense of relevancy and importance when they give their two cents.

Did you conduct this poll on Facebook only? If so, that was a mistake. Facebook is great but Blu-ray.com and instagram are better places to poll and get advice on what we want. In future I'd at least do a poll on blu-ray.com where you know people are primarily interested in buying blu-rays.

Instagram has a terrific film buff community too. It's large and heaps of users on there actually buy blu-rays and DVDs rather than just saying they will (Facebook). Plenty of people from blu-ray.com use it also.

The fact that you deal in obscure Asian cinema makes you quite a niche label. If sales aren't as good as you'd like, perhaps you need an edge that gives collectors MORE of an incentive to buy your products.

What I mean by that is, perhaps you should limit each release to 2000 or 3000 copies. I hear you mentioning that certain titles only sell 1 or 2 copies a month.

Limiting and numbering each title would make those on fencers just jump on it. Much fewer people would wait for considerable price drops.

When something is limited (and especially numbered. Collectors love numbered limited products), people tend to just go for it for fear of ultimately missing out. I've personally done it a few times.

Also I'm not sure if it would benefit you much but Criterion's recent decision to release blu-ray/DVD combo packs and completely ceasing production of DVD releases could be an interesting prospect for you to consider.

Obviously if it's a DVD only title then it would be a DVD release but if it's a title also released on blu-ray, why not cut out the cost of DVD cases, covers and chuck the DVD disc in with the blu-ray?

Considering how few copies you seem to sell of certain titles, is it really worth worrying about people not having to upgrade from DVD to blu-ray later? Not really. People hardly upgrade from DVD to blu-ray with obscure Asian cinema. They either get one or the other and then that's it unless it's a masterpiece or a cult classic of sorts. Making combo packs the only option to get either format would just ensure you're moving product.

I can't imagine how tough it must be to try and gauge which ones will sell the best on blu-ray and I'm sure you've considered most of what I've recommended already but either way, I hope it's helpful. Third Window Films is one of my favourite labels and one of the only cases where I'll still buy DVDs despite how much I wish it was on blu-ray.

those are good ideas, but unfortunately still have a few flaws for the smaller labels. First off, numbered packs can be quite expensive as it requires a new label printed for each one, which can be very expensive for small labels who don't have bargaining power. Remember companies like Arrow will manufacture about 50x the amount of units we do a year so have a huge say in price negotiations compared to us, so it's not as easy.

Secondly, numbered makes sense if it's a steel book or something along those lines, but would it be much easier if just a normal dvd in a normal case? remember the costs of making slip cases, steel books, etc are super high (and higher for us as per above reasoning), so makes it all harder.

Yeah though, maybe a dvd/blu-ray combo might work. It would hurt in the fact that it would make dropping prices cheaply impossible (for example if a title like Vulgaria doesn't work we can easily drop the DVD to very cheap to help sell units, but that would be impossible if the two are combined due to the value of the package), but maybe for some titles it could work. I think though, as per above, that the 'bigger' indies like Eureka/Arrow have a much better chance with such things as their titles are much well known. It would only work for a small number of titles of ours (maybe around 10% of our catalogue at max) and would mean that releasing such unknown titles wouldn't work. Remember also that there is still a massive DVD only market and those people wouldn't spend extra to have a blu-ray which they may not use, which is why you only see a certain number of titles released in combo packs from certain studios as those titles are aimed towards certain people who have blu-ray players

will spend more time on places like here to gauge interest though! but unfortunately when you have no staff it's not easy to control facebook, twitter, forums, instagram, etc and run a company in all other angles!

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by logboy

i'm a barebones fan. i'd of the age that makes me effectively just want a chance to see a film, as you suggest. too many films going unseen to be bothered about more time and effort on what are too frequently sub-par token gesture featurettes. more of an issue with prolific asian countries than cinema from european countries though.

the best extras seem to come from companies appealing to a more academic edge to what they watch. for a company releasing anything but known-classics i guess the most effective extra is the commentary track - everything that forms part of the surrounding story can be condensed into audio - or in the booklet, where it can be read. neither of these are covered by BBFC licensing fees, as far as i know.

audio commentaries are charged by the BBFC on a per-minute rate

[crazyman]

I recently bought Love Exposure based on the healthy extras package.

[samdvd1]

Watched The Story of Yonosuke this morning (check disc).

Very enjoyable film, audio made good use of the surrounds (though a strange little bit of distortion early on at 7:58), and PQ was good, but not great. I think I'd have much preferred Shady on Blu, but as thirdwindow have said already, quite expensive to put these low-selling niche films onto the format so they can't do this all the time. Film: B+ (8/10), Picture (a slightly generous) B- (7/10), Audio B- (7/10), Extras E (1/10, just a trailer). Overall, I'll give the disc a generous B- (7/10).

[thirdwindowfilms]

Originally Posted by samdvd1

Watched The Story of Yonosuke this morning (check disc).

Very enjoyable film, audio made good use of the surrounds (though a strange little bit of distortion early on at 7:58), and PQ was good, but not great. I think I'd have much preferred Shady on Blu, but as thirdwindow have said already, quite expensive to put these low-selling niche films onto the format so they can't do this all the time. Film: B+ (8/10), Picture (a slightly generous) B- (7/10), Audio B- (7/10), Extras E (1/10, just a trailer). Overall, I'll give the disc a generous B- (7/10).

would have liked to put extras on it, though actually the producer of the film wouldn't license them overseas for some strange reason. No extras on HK release for the same reason

Though if the new BBFC rules come into place I think we're all going to have to get used to not having many extras on releases anymore...

Sign this: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...recordings-act to help out

[samdvd1]

Already signed! As film fans, we can't afford to lose niche companies like yourselves. Even though I get check discs, I still buy majority of releases at retail also to show my support.

[manicsounds]

Third Window,
Has there been consideration putting booklets in your releases (like BFI Arrow or Eureka)? Then that would not have to be classified by the BBFC, right?