Babylon 5

[CouncilSpectre]

Originally Posted by moreorless

I do actually think season 1 becomes more interesting in retrospect when you can see what grows from it and indeed seeing the show with a slightly different style to it.

Definitely. You certainly catch more the second time around because a lot of things are in motion in the first year that only become apparent in hindsight. I don't know how many times I've run through the complete series at this point, a lot, but I always end up catching something new when re-watching.

What I think Babylon 5 really got right in terms of its arc was focus on the slow build and then end relatively fast, somewhat forced on it by threats of cancelation but as far as season 4(and the season 5 finale was filmed in season 4 to potentially be used then so you could go straight to that) anyway I don't think the big plots outstay their welcome.

Also it's ability to catch you off-guard

[Show spoiler]like the conclusion to the Shadow war - all built up to a climactic battle royale and then Sheridan ended up talking his way through it!

. Or,

[Show spoiler] when they retake Mars and you're thinking what a great episode, hold on, there's 10 minutes left, wtf, they're carrying on to Earth? Now?!

. In hindsight, I'm glad season 4 and season 5 turned out the way they did. The first half of season 5 suffers possibly, but the second half of season 4 is absolute dynamite, the pace of storytelling is just break-neck!

I remember watching DS9 via renting those 4 episode VHS tapes from Blockbuster.

I remember renting DS9, and TNG originally, before it aired on BBC2. I watched TNG and hated it. "Where's Kirk, who's this bald tw*t?!" Similarly though, years later, I watched the first 4 episodes of DS9 and had a similar reaction. I ended up loving TNG, and still do. DS9 though, well that was the pinnacle of Trek for me.

[principehomura]

It seems that after this I have to watch also Deep Space Nine!

[JoeKryten]

Originally Posted by Zechs Merquise

Thing is that I'm pretty sure JMS had something close to full creative control on the show so the idea that the network were making such demands on him was laughable at best

JMS had an entire character (Keffer) forced on him for a full season.

[Show spoiler]Now he did manage to retaliate by killing off that character at the end of the season

but he still was forced to have him there in the first place.

He didn't get micromanaged much by the "network" (such as it was), but there were times. I think he was screened from much of that by his good friend and producer Doug Netter. I think he also didn't contradict the popular theory at the time of the network wanting MOH replaced as he didn't want to hint at the real reason as he'd promised MOH that he wouldn't reveal that.

[hoejunter]

Originally Posted by principehomura

It seems that after this I have to watch also Deep Space Nine!

Yes you do!

Also thank you to everyone using spoiler tags!

[moreorless]

Originally Posted by CouncilSpectre

Definitely. You certainly catch more the second time around because a lot of things are in motion in the first year that only become apparent in hindsight. I don't know how many times I've run through the complete series at this point, a lot, but I always end up catching something new when re-watching.

Not just events but characters, I think you have plenty of episodes which are not that amazing in their own plot but help to build them up for whats coming.

Also it's ability to catch you off-guard

[Show spoiler]like the conclusion to the Shadow war - all built up to a climactic battle royale and then Sheridan ended up talking his way through it!

. Or,

[Show spoiler] when they retake Mars and you're thinking what a great episode, hold on, there's 10 minutes left, wtf, they're carrying on to Earth? Now?!

. In hindsight, I'm glad season 4 and season 5 turned out the way they did. The first half of season 5 suffers possibly, but the second half of season 4 is absolute dynamite, the pace of storytelling is just break-neck!

Yes I remember going in with the expectation that a lot of the bigger arc plots would be spending years going on in the background and maybe never continued at all has had been the case with other series. Then you have events like the

[Show spoiler]Narn/Centurai war

which suddenly advance much faster then expected with a rather different conclusion.

I do think that generally there is a tendancy for shows to overplay these kins of plots, even DS9 really I felt the Dominion plot was getting a season or two past its best by the time the show ended.

That didnt really happen with B5 and really you don't need to watch season 5 if you don't want to, just the finale which fits into season 4 very well.

I remember renting DS9, and TNG originally, before it aired on BBC2. I watched TNG and hated it. "Where's Kirk, who's this bald tw*t?!" Similarly though, years later, I watched the first 4 episodes of DS9 and had a similar reaction. I ended up loving TNG, and still do. DS9 though, well that was the pinnacle of Trek for me.

TNG I went over to renting it when it went off the BBC after Best of Both Worlds and DS9 I ddi from the start, again it helped that Blockbuster had those 4 episode rental tapes so it wasnt really that expensive.

That did actually mean that Babylon 5 had a period were it was arguably the biggest TV sci fi in the UK with Trek on Sky One and Quantum Leap ending, really it was between it and the X-files.

[chip75]

I can't remember when we had B5, it might have been Saturday or Sunday around midday on S4C. Back then you'd look in the TVTimes and see content listed on Channel 4 and hope they'd make their way to our Welsh channel.

[By_His_Strypes]

I would love for the opportunity to buy a nice BD set of B5...

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by JoeKryten

JMS had an entire character (Keffer) forced on him for a full season.

[Show spoiler]Now he did manage to retaliate by killing off that character at the end of the season

but he still was forced to have him there in the first place.

He didn't get micromanaged much by the "network" (such as it was), but there were times. I think he was screened from much of that by his good friend and producer Doug Netter. I think he also didn't contradict the popular theory at the time of the network wanting MOH replaced as he didn't want to hint at the real reason as he'd promised MOH that he wouldn't reveal that.

Netter and Copeland pretty much dealt with the network and called the shots. JMS was left to his own devices for the most part - because he had no experience dealing with how to actually do a show outside of the creative parts - and was fed a constant stream of "Atta boy!" and bullshit from those two, who constantly pitted him against other people in the production hierarchy of the show - including the network/studio execs - and it's related media. Netter was the one who essentially controlled everything and he had the legal power in Babylonian Productions, as the majority owner/controller. Nothing went on with B5 (on TV) unless Netter signed off on it and he did his best to keep JMS out of anything and everything that didn't involve writing and being on set. When it came to the B5 books and comics and such, JMS had full and complete control over that, because Netter didn't give a shit about any of it and he knew it was the aspect of the business where JMS was best kept busy and in control, as a creative entity.

[harry o]

Always thought Bruce had the most embarrassing line in the entire series "get the hell outta my galaxy !"

[CouncilSpectre]

Originally Posted by moreorless

TNG I went over to renting it when it went off the BBC after Best of Both Worlds and DS9 I did from the start, again it helped that Blockbuster had those 4 episode rental tapes so it wasnt really that expensive.

If you remember, the Beeb made a deal with Sky for BOBW Part 2 - technically, that episode was Sky's to show as they'd picked it up for Season 4. Luckily, the Beeb managed to show both parts and we weren't left on the mightiest of cliffhangers for too long (a week!). Funny thing, at the time, with it disappearing from terrestrial screens I just assumed it had finished. It was about 3 years later when I finally discovered it hadn't. Was browsing in WHS and saw some of the VHS releases - picked up the one with "I Borg/The Next Phase" and couldn't remember the scenes on the back from either "Q Who" or "BOBW" - and then "Who's the woman with Geordi in the other episode? (It was Ro)". I ended up picking up all of season 4 and 5 on VHS and then started getting Season 6 as the tapes were released. I can't remember if we didn't have Sky at the time, or the VHS releases were ahead of the Sky airings, but I remember watching ALL GOOD THINGS on VHS. I was practically camped out front of HMV waiting to pick it up as soon as I could once they'd opened!

Originally Posted by chip75

I can't remember when we had B5, it might have been Saturday or Sunday around midday on S4C. Back then you'd look in the TVTimes and see content listed on Channel 4 and hope they'd make their way to our Welsh channel.

The first few seasons at least were weekdays (Tuesdays?) I was doing my A-levels at the time and remember falling asleep during INFECTION and BORN TO THE PURPLE because I was so knackered! Luckily I persevered and we soon got MINDWAR and THE SKY FULL OF STARS.

The UK transmissions sometimes jumped ahead of the US airings. The back end of season 2, we got a couple of months before they aired in the States

Think it was season 5 where they aired at weekends. I remember having to get up on a Sunday morning at some ungodly hour to watch SLEEPING IN LIGHT.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by harry o

Always thought Bruce had the most embarrassing line in the entire series "get the hell outta my galaxy !"

Yeah, Bruce's character did bring a bit of ham-fisted cheesiness to the show, but if you look at the writing, it was the same with Garibaldi and Ivanova and Marcus, and even Delenn and the Minbari to a certain extent.

[CouncilSpectre]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

Yeah, Bruce's character did bring a bit of ham-fisted cheesiness to the show, but if you look at the writing, it was the same with Garibaldi and Ivanova and Marcus, and even Delenn and the Minbari to a certain extent.

The dichotomy that is Joe's character-writing...

You get lines like that, and then the next scene you'll get G'Kar delivering the most eloquent speech you're likely to hear!

[DWeickerSr]

For people who are critical of the VFX, just remember that B5 on home video has not been served well.

The DVDs really messed up the VFX, making it look absolutely
horrible (when it wasn't when originally broadcast). The remastered versions that HBO Max showed were closer to the originals (and looked passable).

So, depending on how you are watching, you may not get an accurate representation of the VFX.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by CouncilSpectre

The dichotomy that is Joe's character-writing...

You get lines like that, and then the next scene you'll get G'Kar delivering the most eloquent speech you're likely to hear!

The sad thing is that I'm now old and experienced enough to understand and appreciate it (B5) for what it is, tried to be, and could have been.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by DWeickerSr

For people who are critical of the VFX, just remember that B5 on home video has not been served well.

The DVDs really messed up the VFX, making it look absolutely
horrible (when it wasn't when originally broadcast). The remastered versions that HBO Max showed were closer to the originals (and looked passable).

So, depending on how you are watching, you may not get an accurate representation of the VFX.

Seeing the show on HBO Max (and other digital venues that offer the latest remastering) is essentially viewing B5 as it was, in the best possible - as it currently is - way. It will never be B5 presented as it should be, plus they haven't even touched the B5 films or Crusade. The only bit of B5 that we have that represents how B5 should be presented is The Lost Tales, because it was filmed and finished in HD widescreen and has "current VFX" that reflect how B5 would look if done today, with respect to the original series VFX work.

[harry o]

Still have my "World without end" VHS signed by Mr o' hare.

[moreorless]

Originally Posted by CouncilSpectre

If you remember, the Beeb made a deal with Sky for BOBW Part 2 - technically, that episode was Sky's to show as they'd picked it up for Season 4. Luckily, the Beeb managed to show both parts and we weren't left on the mightiest of cliffhangers for too long (a week!). Funny thing, at the time, with it disappearing from terrestrial screens I just assumed it had finished. It was about 3 years later when I finally discovered it hadn't. Was browsing in WHS and saw some of the VHS releases - picked up the one with "I Borg/The Next Phase" and couldn't remember the scenes on the back from either "Q Who" or "BOBW" - and then "Who's the woman with Geordi in the other episode? (It was Ro)". I ended up picking up all of season 4 and 5 on VHS and then started getting Season 6 as the tapes were released. I can't remember if we didn't have Sky at the time, or the VHS releases were ahead of the Sky airings, but I remember watching ALL GOOD THINGS on VHS. I was practically camped out front of HMV waiting to pick it up as soon as I could once they'd opened!

Waiting for each VHS release of TNG and DS9 from Blockbuster was a bit of a rital, actually ended up owning quite a few ex rental 4 episode tapes on a staff discount when I worked their for a year in the mid 90's, probably still upstairs in the loft somewhere.

The first few seasons at least were weekdays (Tuesdays?) I was doing my A-levels at the time and remember falling asleep during INFECTION and BORN TO THE PURPLE because I was so knackered! Luckily I persevered and we soon got MINDWAR and THE SKY FULL OF STARS.

The UK transmissions sometimes jumped ahead of the US airings. The back end of season 2, we got a couple of months before they aired in the States

Think it was season 5 where they aired at weekends. I remember having to get up on a Sunday morning at some ungodly hour to watch SLEEPING IN LIGHT.

I think I saw the pilot on VHS first but Infection was the first thing I saw on TV and honestly I remember really liking it. I would actually say the FX there hold up quite well with some nice makeup/prosthetics on the monster, plots a bit bland but it does bring up the idea of ancient tech which was quite new for TV sci fi at the time and obviously played strongly into what was coming. The first of the shows quality guest stars as well with David McCallum, season 1 especially I think was helped by them a lot.

I don't think I caught every episode after that first time around but luckly did catch Signs and Portents which definitely hooked me in.

[CouncilSpectre]

Originally Posted by moreorless

I think I saw the pilot on VHS first but Infection was the first thing I saw on TV and honestly I remember really liking it. I would actually say the FX there hold up quite well with some nice makeup/prosthetics on the monster, plots a bit bland but it does bring up the idea of ancient tech which was quite new for TV sci fi at the time and obviously played strongly into what was coming. The first of the shows quality guest stars as well with David McCallum, season 1 especially I think was helped by them a lot.

I don't think I caught every episode after that first time around but luckly did catch Signs and Portents which definitely hooked me in.

Yep, THE GATHERING, I saw that on VHS too. Had no idea that it was a pilot, just thought it was a low-budget sci-fi movie! Then there was nothing for about 18 months and then suddenly, out of nowhere, there it was on C4.

I think it was AND THE SKY FULL OF STARS that finally hooked me. Visually, it's a big episode, but narratively it was even bigger. It's where they really lucked out in that first year. Despite there being some clunkers, they dropped just enough intriguing breadcrumbs to keep you interested. MINDWAR, AND THE SKY FULL OF STARS, SIGNS AND PORTENTS, A VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS, BABYLON SQUARED, CHRYSALIS.....all very good episodes. Made it easier to overlook the TKOs of the first season!

[LexInHD]

Infection was the episode that brought Marshall Teague into the B5 fold and had B5 not been cancelled, he would have been upgraded to series regular as Ta'Lon, to take over G'Kar's role as the Official Narn Representative, since Andreas Katsula's G'Kar was being written out with the option to return later, as needed by the writing.

[principehomura]

Yesterday I watched Divided Loyalties, s02e19.


This show is really solid. It's the weekend, I amy be able to finish the season this evening