Horizontal Center Channel Speakers and Why They Should Be Avoided

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Z1NONLY

Hello everyone, after the horizontal MTM thread turned up in my search on this subject, I decided to create an account here and seek advice on my upcoming HT project.

My wife has decided that she wants to turn our porch into a den and has approved $500 for HT. The completed room should end up being ~13' X 15' and she conspired with our son to surprise me with a new 60" Vizio Razor. Her father (retired custom cabinet builder) is going to build the "wall" that will house the TV, LCR, and sub. We have an older Denon rcvr that I intend to use for 5.1 surround. (Although it's capable of 7.1) I think I'm going to use a Daton clasic 12" in a 2.5-3ft (custom) ported enclosure with a 250w plate amp for sub duty That leaves about $300 for LCR and surround.

While I have a speaker budget, the sound system is secondary to how she want's the wall to look.

I am considering building a pair of BR-1's from parts express and having my father-in-law build the enclosures.


My primary question is:


What is the least-bad way to modify the BR-1 design for center channel duty?

Vertical won't fit unless I go higher than I want to go on the wall, with either the tweeter or or the woofer.

I don't want to just turn one on its side because either the woofer or tweeter will not be centered. (But I'm willing to consider it, if it's deemed best)


That leaves me with the unthinkable.....horizontal MTM.

I am thinking of using 4ohm versions of the BR-1 woofers and removing the 4ohm resistor that's in series with the tweeter to help the tweeter balance with the doubled-up woofers. I may be able to modify the tweeter enough to get 45 degrees between it and the center of the woofers and adding a slight angle to the woofers should also be doable.

Will these steps produce a center channel that resembles the LR speakers, and will it be worth listening to, or should I do something else with the budget?

TIA.

A drawing would help - I'm trying to picture what you are doing. Since your Father-in-Law will build the wall himself, he should be able to make accomidations for a vertical BR-1.

[Z1NONLY]

Originally Posted by prerich

A drawing would help - I'm trying to picture what you are doing. Since your Father-in-Law will build the wall himself, he should be able to make accomidations for a vertical BR-1.

He can make anything his daughter wants. But, I'm not his daughter.

I run our home. She runs me....and him.

We even have to make the speakers white because that's the color she wants the wall to be. Never mind that the TV is black.

I want the center channel audio to come from the center of the TV. That of course is not an option, so I have to move the drivers some distance from the center of the TV. A horizontal center allows me to stay closer to the center of the TV than a vertical center would, (And increses my chances of wife approval.)

Also, removing the tweeter resistor and adding a woofer helps with output..I hope.




To her, the sound system is just something else to clutter up her pretty wall.

[chriscmore]

For the best sound, simply use three identical speakers across the front. Three BR-1s would suffice. If you had to rotate one BR-1 horizontally, it would still be better than adding another M to make it wider. Those mid/woofers should have plenty of headroom solo - the only thing having two of them would do is mess up your horizontal frequency consistency and muddy up the intelligibility.

If you're really vertically challenged you could do like KEF, Thiel, etc and do a coaxial, one-driver build. While some home audio full-range drivers get spendy and are sometimes exotic, I've heard great mini-monitors built from coaxial car speakers. You only need bass response to 80Hz, so you can make them very small/short and act like true point sources.

Cheers,
Chris

[prerich]

Originally Posted by chriscmore

For the best sound, simply use three identical speakers across the front. Three BR-1s would suffice. If you had to rotate one BR-1 horizontally, it would still be better than adding another M to make it wider. Those mid/woofers should have plenty of headroom solo - the only thing having two of them would do is mess up your horizontal frequency consistency and muddy up the intelligibility.

If you're really vertically challenged you could do like KEF, Thiel, etc and do a coaxial, one-driver build. While some home audio full-range drivers get spendy and are sometimes exotic, I've heard great mini-monitors built from coaxial car speakers. You only need bass response to 80Hz, so you can make them very small/short and act like true point sources.

Cheers,
Chris

Thiel, Kef, ect - is way out of his budget. I didn't answer back because I'm still trying to figure this out. The comment "I want the center channel audio to come from the center of the TV" ... that will natrually happen in a properly tuned HT.

I agree with you... he needs to go ahead and use three BR-1. I'm going to attach a file so Z1ONLY can see what I'm suggesting (the BR-1s are small enough and the dialoge will come from the center of the screen.

[Z1NONLY]

Originally Posted by prerich

Thiel, Kef, ect - is way out of his budget. I didn't answer back because I'm still trying to figure this out. The comment "I want the center channel audio to come from the center of the TV" ... that will natrually happen in a properly tuned HT.

I agree with you... he needs to go ahead and use three BR-1. I'm going to attach a file so Z1ONLY can see what I'm suggesting (the BR-1s are small enough and the dialoge will come from the center of the screen.

Thanks for the responses but that setup seems to put the bottom of the TV above eye level and/or the speakers at knee level.

It also seems to put the center channel audio farther away from the center of the TV.

When I said I wanted the center audio to come from the center of the TV, I meant I would mount the center speaker dead center in front of the TV if it wouldn't block the picture. (So the audio would come from there) However I can't mount the speaker there so I'm left trying to get all of the center channel audio as close to that center point as I can. By going vertical, I move one of the drivers further away from the center of the TV where I want the sound to come from.

If you guys are sure this won't pull the sound away from the screen, I will give it a try. It makes the system less complicated too.

We have been experimenting with picture height but it looks like we will end up with the about 18 to 24" of clearance under the TV.

I would rather have my sound too high and my TV too low since I cant have both at eye level and keep the LCR level with each other.

If I go above the TV, I guess I could mount them with the tweeters on the bottom. and Angle them down a bit.

I also need to decide where I want to place the sub in the wall. Corner loading will get louder, but I suspect the 12" with 250w should have no problem keeping up with three 6.5" drivers in the middle of the wall and be less boomy.

[Z1NONLY]

Originally Posted by chriscmore

While some home audio full-range drivers get spendy and are sometimes exotic, I've heard great mini-monitors built from coaxial car speakers. You only need bass response to 80Hz, so you can make them very small/short and act like true point sources.

Cheers,
Chris

I actually considered this. I have been doing car audio since the late 80's, (Yes, I'm old) and thought that there have been more than a few high-end coaxials that would do well. My racing addiction...errr...hobby, has pulled me away from car audio over the past few years, but I still have a lot of nice car audio equpment sitting around. I checked, no high end coaxials in my "stash", and no new sets in my budget for this project.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Z1NONLY

Thanks for the responses but that setup seems to put the bottom of the TV above eye level and/or the speakers at knee level.

It also seems to put the center channel audio farther away from the center of the TV.

When I said I wanted the center audio to come from the center of the TV, I meant I would mount the center speaker dead center in front of the TV if it wouldn't block the picture. (So the audio would come from there) However I can't mount the speaker there so I'm left trying to get all of the center channel audio as close to that center point as I can. By going vertical, I move one of the drivers further away from the center of the TV where I want the sound to come from.

If you guys are sure this won't pull the sound away from the screen, I will give it a try. It makes the system less complicated too.

We have been experimenting with picture height but it looks like we will end up with the about 18 to 24" of clearance under the TV.

I would rather have my sound too high and my TV too low since I cant have both at eye level and keep the LCR level with each other.

If I go above the TV, I guess I could mount them with the tweeters on the bottom. and Angle them down a bit.

I also need to decide where I want to place the sub in the wall. Corner loading will get louder, but I suspect the 12" with 250w should have no problem keeping up with three 6.5" drivers in the middle of the wall and be less boomy.

No...not really - take a look at my set up - My TV is actuall at eye level I don't have to look up to watch the center of my screen (the small one not the LCD Projection). Also when you run your room correction - it should take in account for your speaker positioning (which model receiver do you have?). Your speakers will not be at knee level - the woofers would be about chest level - putting the tweeters closer to ear level. I'm sure the sound will not be pulled away from the screen ... if you do your intital setup correctly. Even with three Heresy's on the floor, my room was full of sound and directional ques were on point. The Center channel came from the center of either screen - and perfect pans from left to right.

When I got my Cornwalls - I had to make some ajustments in my room correction - but after that....perfect pans, despite the speaker size differences. It's like I'm actually in the space that the movie is in. You get lost in it to the point that it seems real. Trust me on this.

I still want to know the model of your receiver - just to make sure you have a type of room correction.

[prerich]

"If I go above the TV, I guess I could mount them with the tweeters on the bottom. and Angle them down a bit."

This would also work, but believe me ...bottom is best.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Z1NONLY

I actually considered this. I have been doing car audio since the late 80's, (Yes, I'm old) and thought that there have been more than a few high-end coaxials that would do well. My racing addiction...errr...hobby, has pulled me away from car audio over the past few years, but I still have a lot of nice car audio equpment sitting around. I checked, no high end coaxials in my "stash", and no new sets in my budget for this project.

P.S. What are the dimensions of the wall in question ?

[Sancho Panza]

Moved the plasma so we now look UP @ it. Much easier to see, like getting a NEW tv.

[Sancho Panza]

[Z1NONLY]

Originally Posted by prerich

P.S. What are the dimensions of the wall in question ?

~13' wide. The center section that houses the TV will be abot 60" wide from ceiling to floor and 16" deep. The remainging space on either side will only be 12" deep.

My wife says it will keep the wall from looking booring. I just hop the old Denon rcvr I intend to use has good time correction. I looked up a manual on line and it seems that it asks how far each speaker is from the listening position. -Not exactly cutting edge tech.

I don't have the model number handy, but it's rated at 70w/ch @8 ohms.

On another note, my wife wants to be able to have some extra chairs in the room. I have to make sure that the mains will not be blocked by a love seat or something.

I really think the speakers will have to go over the TV.

BTW, I just noticed that Infinity Primus speakers are sold individually. I may just pick up three p163's (on sale for $90ea ATM) and paint or recover the enclosures.

Has any one listened to those speakers? The are a little bigger than I want but if I go over the TV I think I will have room.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Z1NONLY

~13' wide. The center section that houses the TV will be abot 60" wide from ceiling to floor and 16" deep. The remainging space on either side will only be 12" deep.

My wife says it will keep the wall from looking booring. I just hop the old Denon rcvr I intend to use has good time correction. I looked up a manual on line and it seems that it asks how far each speaker is from the listening position. -Not exactly cutting edge tech.

I don't have the model number handy, but it's rated at 70w/ch @8 ohms.

On another note, my wife wants to be able to have some extra chairs in the room. I have to make sure that the mains will not be blocked by a love seat or something.

I really think the speakers will have to go over the TV.

BTW, I just noticed that Infinity Primus speakers are sold individually. I may just pick up three p163's (on sale for $90ea ATM) and paint or recover the enclosures.

Has any one listened to those speakers? The are a little bigger than I want but if I go over the TV I think I will have room.

I designed a HT that appeared in Homes and Gardens of Pensacola, about 5 years ago that used an earlier version of the Primus, I wanted to use the Bagend M-6, but he didn't want to allocate that much in the budget for speakers He wasn't an audiophile, but he was more than happy with how it came out, and he loves the Primus speakers. Infinity Primus are a good inexpensive speaker.

[Z1NONLY]

So I listened to some MTM centers at Best Buy yesterday...

They sound fine on-axis. Get about 20-30 degrees off center and they turn to crap. Standing them on-end improves things a lot.

In other news, that old Denon rcvr is VERY old 2002-ish. Dolby pro logic or DTS something.....5.1 who?

I have an RCA rcvr that was part of my old neighbor's HTIB that can run 5.1. But it's rated at 50w/ch...@1Khz. I'm thinking it must be chip-amp crap.

Time to negotiate a bigger budget.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Z1NONLY

So I listened to some MTM centers at Best Buy yesterday...

They sound fine on-axis. Get about 20-30 degrees off center and they turn to crap. Standing them on-end improves things a lot.

In other news, that old Denon rcvr is VERY old 2002-ish. Dolby pro logic or DTS something.....5.1 who?

I have an RCA rcvr that was part of my old neighbor's HTIB that can run 5.1. But it's rated at 50w/ch...@1Khz. I'm thinking it must be chip-amp crap.

Time to negotiate a bigger budget.

Yes!!!

[Z1NONLY]

Originally Posted by prerich

Yes!!!

The room is small-ish, and I intend to run a powered sub, so I don't think I need a lot of power, but I do want clean power. An auto setup option with a mic would be nice too.

I'm also looking at getting RS621 Speaker Kits and building slot-port enclosures for them. (with a bigger budget)

I wanted to go sealed to keep them compact, but the low-end extension doesn't look flat enough going into the sub. The ported enclosure looks great though.

[Sancho Panza]

Love my Heresy II as Center; it's still above the Plasma, clear & distinct,

[ieco]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1382903597.105247.jpg

Guys what do you think? (Please ignore the mess)

[BigAl87]

Originally Posted by ieco

Attachment 73781

Guys what do you think? (Please ignore the mess)

Great choice of center channel, better than most MTM centers for sure, how does it sound, is the transition seamless across the front soundstage? You definitely don't have frequency cancelation like this plus you have great horizontal dispersion so a better off axis performance.

[ieco]

Wow it's amazing!! The sound it's more dynamic. There's a noticeable difference on an off axis, it's much better than the "center" channel. I just finished watching AVP and all I can say is wow! It's incredible. Thanks BD and thank you guys for all your knowledge.