Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It might be worth pointing out that forum member Anthony P typically only posts on weekends.

But Anthony P has already responded to me with another small paragraph saying nothing as usual, not contending with my arguments but asking me to agree to the same points of his he has said before that I’ve already answered and provided valid counter arguments for. Clearly he doesn’t know how to debate and how a debate works. He said in this thread a few weeks ago that most people don’t have critical thinking skills but implied he does, he hasn’t shown anywhere in the discussion that he is critical thinker, in the other thread particularly he’s failed at following and keeping up with the conversation that’s been carried over to this thread, reading comments properly and understanding what I’ve said, and what my points and arguments are. At this point I am left wondering whether he really isn’t very smart or he’s doing it deliberately and evading because he disagrees and knows if he does answer it will trap him where it will lead to him having no choice but to concede.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The thing is, Alchav just claimed that Amazon streaming with fibre is a match for 4K disc...

I never said it matched 4K Disc, I said the Quality was up there with Disc and this is my opinion. With Symmetrical Fiber at 100/100Mbps the Streaming comes in Solid, even though InfoWest put me on WiFi. So the only Provider I have an issue with is AppleTV, it lags a little at times because of the WiFi never had a problem with Ethernet!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I never said it matched 4K Disc, I said the Quality was up there with Disc and this is my opinion. With Symmetrical Fiber at 100/100Mbps the Streaming comes in Solid, even though InfoWest put me on WiFi. So the only Provider I have an issue with is AppleTV, it lags a little at times because of the WiFi never had a problem with Ethernet!

Your having symmetrical fiber internet is irrelevant. All you need for 4K streaming is a stable internet connection with download speeds of 15-30 Mbps depending upon the streaming service's published requirements.

No streaming service lists an upload speed requirement because there isn't one. Your internet service upload speed has no bearing on your streaming results. Thus, symmetrical internet is in no way necessary.

The required download speeds can easily be met without having fiber internet. Non-symmetrical coax and fiber-coax hybrid internet is just fine for streaming. Even ADSL2 can achieve 24 Mbps.

Whether you use a hard wired connection or a wifi one does not matter as both can easily support streaming's bandwidth needs. Obviously, if your environment is prone to signal interference then hard wired would be better. Bottom line is you get the stream reliably or you do not. I use both types of connection because both work just fine.

Internet service download speeds in excess of 30 Mbps will not make the stream any better. You either have enough download speed or you do not. Having more than is needed does not improve the quality of the stream.

You have already said that you can not see much difference between HD streaming and 4K streaming, so it comes as no surprise that you can not see much difference between streaming and discs. I don't foresee anyone asking you to be a reviewer at Value Electronic's next TV shootout.

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I never said it matched 4K Disc, I said the Quality was up there with Disc and this is my opinion. With Symmetrical Fiber at 100/100Mbps the Streaming comes in Solid, even though InfoWest put me on WiFi. So the only Provider I have an issue with is AppleTV, it lags a little at times because of the WiFi never had a problem with Ethernet!

Originally Posted by Vilya

Your having symmetrical fiber internet is irrelevant. All you need for 4K streaming is a stable internet connection with download speeds of 15-30 Mbps depending upon the streaming service's published requirements.

No streaming service lists an upload speed requirement because there isn't one. Your internet service upload speed has no bearing on your streaming results. Thus, symmetrical internet is in no way necessary.

The required download speeds can easily be met without having fiber internet. Non-symmetrical coax and fiber-coax hybrid internet is just fine for streaming. Even ADSL2 can achieve 24 Mbps.

Whether you use a hard wired connection or a wifi one does not matter as both can easily support streaming's bandwidth needs. Obviously, if your environment is prone to signal interference then hard wired would be better. Bottom line is you get the stream reliably or you do not. I use both types of connection because both work just fine.

Internet service download speeds in excess of 30 Mbps will not make the stream any better. You either have enough download speed or you do not. Having more than is needed does not improve the quality of the stream.

You have already said that you can not see much difference between HD streaming and 4K streaming, so it comes as no surprise that you can not see much difference between streaming and discs. I don't foresee anyone asking you to be a reviewer at Value Electronic's next TV shootout.

These 2 posts are precisely what I'm talking about.... I feel like I could find them, one right after the other over and over again in this thread....

Like Yogi Berra

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I don't think that makes him a troll... I truly believe that he doesn't see a difference...

His inability to see a difference, or his unwillingness to admit the difference, is not the problem.

He has a history of repeatedly stating falsehoods about all manner of the most basic technical aspects of streaming and disc playback. Many of our members have attempted to educate him about these matters, but he just ignores these efforts and repeats the same nonsense over and over again and for more than a decade now. This repetition is suggestive of a troll.

The real indictment against him is his extensive history of delighting in the prospect of discs dying out and how he now revels in every story, or rumor of one, about disc players being scarce or problematic in their operation.

Read this selection of his quotes:

[Show spoiler]You have often, and with great glee, told people in this thread that discs are dying and you have gone so far as to express your hope for that outcome because you deliberately like to annoy people. It is what any garden variety troll would do and you have done it for so many years. You are not a victim; you are an instigator.

I did go back through some of your posts and I found plenty of examples of how you like to troll this thread:

From Jan. 10, 2017 and well before I even joined this thread:

Originally Posted by alchav21

I just like to Tweak these Disc Lovers so I kind of Embellish the information I have.

From Dec. 1, 2016:

Originally Posted by alchav21

I don't know what rock you are living under, but Streaming is taking over. You do know that you Stream from your Blu-ray Player, so why not directly from a Server. If you can't see the writing on the wall, you are still under that Rock.

And on it goes:

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes, you can bet that The Disc is Dead, that doesn't fit into Millennials Convenience, Efficiency, or Cost. It's going to be a total Digital World, and the quicker the better. They are nostalgic, so fond memories of their Grandparents Home Theater will keep them wanting this in their Homes.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Yes Discs RIP!

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well I have been telling you guys this for a while, The Disc is Dead! If you don't think Streaming Video is King, you live under a Rock.

Originally Posted by alchav21

the 4K Discs are not selling.... Nobody wants Discs!

And still more...:

Originally Posted by alchav21

Dying, dead, what's the difference for all practical purposes they are on the way out. Discs may be around for a while, but not too many people are buying them anymore. Don't quote me any Stats, that's ancient news get out and talk to people in real time and you'll get your answers.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Sorry I shouldn't say Discs are Dead, but they are Dying a Slow Death!

Originally Posted by alchav21

Discs are dying a slow death, but they will be around a while they'll just cost more.

Originally Posted by alchav21

This Thread has survived, but the Physical Discs are on their last Link. Even the Disk Gurus are saying that 4K is the last Physical Media. 8K TV's are here, but no Physical Discs, it's all Digital Streaming. It seems the only people buying 4K Discs are on this site. Anybody that I talk too is not buying Physical Discs, they just Stream. Physical had a good run, but if 8K Physical is not coming you guys will have to concede to Streaming!

Originally Posted by alchav21

I'm not worried, do you see me worried, but you guys should be. I say it doesn't look good, and Discs are on the way out. No matter what you guys say, owning and looking through a bunch of Discs is archaic. Doesn't it make more sense to have everything organized in Digital Files. We are in a Connected World, and Discs have out lived their usefulness.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Even here on Blu-ray.com using Discs is becoming Archaic, no one wants to do it anymore.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Steedeel did we shake your Funny Bone, you might as well face it Disc is Dead. ... So don't blame anybody except yourselves for the Demise of Discs!

Originally Posted by alchav21

Disc is dying and Obsolete

Originally Posted by alchav21

you're the last of a dying breed, Hard Core Disc Lovers. This is what this Thread is all about, and Digital HD is taking over, UV or Keychest. So take a deep breath, and embrace the change!

Originally Posted by alchav21

Physical is History Digital HD will Rule!

Originally Posted by alchav21

Hey Disc Guys, don't kill the messenger, I know Discs are your life but life moves on. Vilya Discs are on the way out, talk to anyone on the street and they are not buying them.

Originally Posted by alchav21

Discs are on a Death Spiral. The news keeps getting worse, just in the time you have been gone Disc sales have tanked. Studios are opting for Blu-Ray instead of 4K, it just doesn't look good.

If you look at the Hardware Threads, not having a high end UHD Player will give you poor play back results. So now a $10K set up is needed to give you an average 4K Disc Quality!

Originally Posted by alchav21

Steedeel, In your Opinion you're in Denial, Discs are History Digital HD is here to stay. Do you honestly think people will be buying Discs, and playing them in their Players? With Digital HD there are so many options, say good bye to Discs!

^That's why he was banned. Not for his "opinions", but for his boorish behavior.

Forum rule:

"If your only purpose on this forum is to bring negativity to the discussions or question Blu-ray as a format, then you are not welcome."

For someone that has no use for discs or their players, why does he spend the vast majority of his time talking about them? The answer is obvious to most of us.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

These 2 posts are precisely what I'm talking about.... I feel like I could find them, one right after the other over and over again in this thread....

Like Yogi Berra

Posting frequent falsehoods results in frequent rebuttals.

When your posts are all fresh and original, you can demand the same from the rest of us.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

It's been my belief, that he truly does not see the difference between physical and streamed content on his setup and that he believes that this is because his connection speed bridges the gap rather than any limitations of his gear.

I asked that poster years ago about his display setup and he had no idea about the settings. So we tried to educate him on some of the settings but that was a futile exercise. He continues to this day believing symmetrical fiber is needed for good streaming even though he's been provided with links and charts showing that very little data is sent back to the CDN from the client. Furthermore, DOCSIS 3 (2006) has a max download of 1 Gbps so highspeed via coax has been available for quite sometime. In 2015 my service was just 25 Mbps but we would watch House of Cards from Netflix via a Sony FMP-X10, the video was UHD at 16 Mbps.

So how do you respond to a poster that absolutely refuses to learn anything about the technical reality of streaming?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I asked that poster years ago about his display setup and he had no idea about the settings. So we tried to educate him on some of the settings but that was a futile exercise. He continues to this day believing symmetrical fiber is needed for good streaming even though he's been provided with links and charts showing that very little data is sent back to the CDN from the client. Furthermore, DOCSIS 3 (2006) has a max download of 1 Gbps so highspeed via coax has been available for quite sometime. In 2015 my service was just 25 Mbps but we would watch House of Cards from Netflix via a Sony FMP-X10, the video was UHD at 16 Mbps.

So how do you respond to a poster that absolutely refuses to learn anything about the technical reality of streaming?

Bare in mind, for a good three years or so, he was using a rear projection set too.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

His inability to see a difference, or his unwillingness to admit the difference, is not the problem.

He has a history of repeatedly stating falsehoods about all manner of the most basic technical aspects of streaming and disc playback. Many of our members have attempted to educate him about these matters, but he just ignores these efforts and repeats the same nonsense over and over again and for more than a decade now. This repetition is suggestive of a troll.

The real indictment against him is his extensive history of delighting in the prospect of discs dying out and how he now revels in every story, or rumor of one, about disc players being scarce or problematic in their operation.

Read this selection of his quotes:

[Show spoiler]You have often, and with great glee, told people in this thread that discs are dying and you have gone so far as to express your hope for that outcome because you deliberately like to annoy people. It is what any garden variety troll would do and you have done it for so many years. You are not a victim; you are an instigator.

I did go back through some of your posts and I found plenty of examples of how you like to troll this thread:

From Jan. 10, 2017 and well before I even joined this thread:



From Dec. 1, 2016:



And on it goes:









And still more...:

^That's why he was banned. Not for his "opinions", but for his boorish behavior.

Forum rule:

"If your only purpose on this forum is to bring negativity to the discussions or question Blu-ray as a format, then you are not welcome."

For someone that has no use for discs or their players, why does he spend the vast majority of his time talking about them? The answer is obvious to most of us.

Blatant trolling because it’s not just this thread.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Blatant trolling because it’s not just this thread.

And his posts are almost exclusively in the blu-ray and related hardware forums. He very rarely posts in the streaming forums.

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Alchav constantly ignores facts to the contrary, so what is that if it’s not trolling?

Originally Posted by Vilya

Posting frequent falsehoods results in frequent rebuttals.

When your posts are all fresh and original, you can demand the same from the rest of us.

I see a bit of hypocrisy in both of your comments here. I can see your point about this member Alchav’s post history. But an issue I can also see though is that you’re not consistent, it seems to be the people that post against Blu-ray and your views that you only say this to and have a problem with. You both have defended Anthony P in this thread for doing pretty much the same, he runs with the same arguments all of the time, he did in the other thread and in this thread, he has a long history of it too, but when someone decides to debate him over it that has a solid argument against some of the nonsense he says, you both defended him and Steedeel told me to shut up, when you really should be saying that to Anthony P and telling him to stop if you truly have a problem with people doing that and are about fairness.

[Vilya]

I have not taken any side in your ongoing multi-thread conversation with Anthony P nor have I told anyone to "shut up." I would to like see what comments of mine gave you either impression.

Like many of us here, I use both streaming and physical media. I spend money upon both, but I have a clear preference. I am not in the habit of spending my money or my time upon things that I dislike.

In the case of the person that I have been referencing it is one thing to comment about the future of something that he does not use and that he has no interest in, physical media, but it is entirely another matter to take pleasure from predicting the demise of what so many people here enjoy. It is not his persistent insistence that physical media is "dying", to use his words, that is so annoying, but the fact that he loves telling us this every chance that he gets. His opinion in this matter is hardly unique; we hear it from many others, but his delight in telling us so very often is rather unique and kind of sadistic, too. This quote of his sums up his entire raison d'etre on these forums:

Originally Posted by alchav21

I just like to Tweak these Disc Lovers

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have not taken any side in your ongoing multi-thread conversation with Anthony P nor have I told anyone to "shut up." I would to like see what comments of mine gave you either impression.

Yes you’re right, you didn’t tell me to shut and bugger off, only Steedeel did, that’s why I edited my comment 1 minute before you posted. You did make a post though that come across as you defended Anthony P, to me it suggested that you were saying it’s no longer the weekend when he posts so he won’t be here until next weekend to respond to defend himself.

Regardless of that my point still stands. If you and other members have a problem with Alchav doing what he does, then you should also have a problem with Anthony P and some of his comments, and should be saying the same to him. I also shouldn’t be told to piss off by any member.

[Vilya]

My point was merely that he only posts on the weekend and that we will not hear from him again until then. Any conversation concerning him should be tabled until he is back, so that he has a fair and timely opportunity to speak for himself.

There is absolutely no comparison between Anthony P's post history and that of the other person that we have been discussing. The former does not come on here expressly to cause trouble the way that the latter does.

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

In the case of the person that I have been referencing it is one thing to comment about the future of something that he does not use and that he has no interest in, physical media, but it is entirely another matter to take pleasure from predicting the demise of what so many people here enjoy. It is not his persistent insistence that physical media is "dying", to use his words, that is so annoying, but the fact that he loves telling us this every chance that he gets. His opinion in this matter is hardly unique; we hear it from many others, but his delight in telling us so very often is rather unique and kind of sadistic, too. This quote of his sums up his entire raison d'etre on these forums:

I could make an argument for the opposite side that supports that the people on the Blu-ray side in this thread have also enjoyed putting down streaming, there’s a history of them doing it, and they also get pleasure out of it just the same. Both sides are really just as bad as one another in this thread from what I have seen, and just like baiting each other. It also seems to be a platform for the people on the Blu-ray side to team up like a pack of wolves 5-10 on 1, Alchav is an easy target to bully, and I think some of the members that post in this thread like doing it, because it makes them feel better about the realities of where this hobby is heading.

[Vilya]

Almost everyone here also uses streaming; they spend their money on it the same as everyone else. They have their preference, sure, but most people do not spend their discretionary income upon things that they dislike.

This is a blu-ray website overall, so it should come as no surprise that most members here like physical media. It is not an "us vs. them" situation when most of us use both.

Late edit due to oversight:

Originally Posted by Youreallyareagerbil

Alchav is an easy target to bully, and I think some of the members that post in this thread like doing it, because it makes them feel better about the realities of where this hobby is heading.

He is not the victim of bullying. Read his quotes again; they are clearly designed to aggravate and to provoke a reaction. He is an instigator, a serial button pusher.

Replying to his decade old schtick is actually quite tiring, but some of us feel that his inflammatory comments should be challenged.

All of us understand the status of physical media just fine, but having someone gleefully anticipate its death is hard to tolerate.

Criticizing streaming is fair game. Criticizing physical media is also fair game. Actively wishing for one of them to cease to exist is not fair game; it is plainly an expression of ill will and mean spiritedness.

[the-pi-guy]

Originally Posted by Youreallyareagerbil

It’s a silly argument, food is a necessity, BD and 4KBD is not. Discussing food and relating physical media to food is a silly discussion.

Which doesn't really matter. Some people are willing to pay more for different conveniences. A lot of people aren't. Only thing that matters for physical media to continue existing is that enough people are interested in what it offers.

I don't know how long that'll last. And we won't know until things happen.

It's possible that trends will change - maybe due to streaming costs. It's also possible and likely that things will deteriorate for physical media.

I'm worried about it, but not overly so. Plenty of these outlets will continue existing for quite a while. Criterion and Kino Lorber will continue existing for a while at least.

At least the next few years seem like they'll be stable.

Originally Posted by Youreallyareagerbil

I could make an argument for the opposite side that supports that the people on the Blu-ray side in this thread have also enjoyed putting down streaming, there’s a history of them doing it, and they also get pleasure out of it just the same. Both sides are really just as bad as one another in this thread from what I have seen, and just like baiting each other. It also seems to be a platform for the people on the Blu-ray side to team up like a pack of wolves 5-10 on 1, Alchav is an easy target to bully, and I think some of the members that post in this thread like doing it, because it makes them feel better about the realities of where this hobby is heading.

The issue isn't really putting down streaming/physical media.

Genuinely talking about the pros and cons of different formats is great. Physical media does have issues. Discs can get scratched, cases and shipping is often overly cheap. And people here complain about a lot of those issues.

The problem is when you start to attack people for enjoying media the way they want.

If someone kept hanging it over other people's head every time a show got rotated off Netflix/Max/etc, that'd be jerk behavior.

That's wildly different from just saying "Oh I'm glad I have this on physical media" or something like that.

He pretty much brings it on himself by basically taunting people about physical media players dying.

If he was solely just talking about how happy he was with streaming, I'd be thrilled to back him up on that - I would absolutely defend him against people who were being unkind to him.

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Almost everyone here also uses streaming; they spend their money on it the same as everyone else. They have their preference, sure, but most people do not spend their discretionary income upon things that they dislike.

This is a blu-ray website overall, so it should come as no surprise that most members here like physical media. It is not an "us vs. them" situation when most of us use both.

It’s not a surprise, I have just been forced to call out the clear hypocrisy that I can see in thread by some of the members that participate on the Blu-ray side that also belong to.

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

Which doesn't really matter. Some people are willing to pay more for different conveniences. A lot of people aren't. Only thing that matters for physical media to continue existing is that enough people are interested in what it offers.

Which has been my point and argument and it doesn’t appear that you understand that, you haven’t contended with my arguments to support what you’re saying here, and until you do I’m currently in the lead in the debate about it.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=198

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

I don't know how long that'll last. And we won't know until things happen.

It's possible that trends will change - maybe due to streaming costs. It's also possible and likely that things will deteriorate for physical media.

This still doesn’t contend with my argument though. Again saying that “Gen Z and Gen Alpha might become more interested in BD and 4KBD physical media and start buying more of them one day” isn’t an actual counter argument to my arguments in this debate.

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

I'm worried about it, but not overly so. Plenty of these outlets will continue existing for quite a while. Criterion and Kino Lorber will continue existing for a while at least.

At least the next few years seem like they'll be stable

Are you a Boomer or Gen Xer? Then I don’t disagree, there is less for you to worry about it. I will pose the same question to you as I did Anthony P which he has refused to answer. The previous discussion was about Blu-ray player manufacturing coming to an end, the player market has declined rapidly and there is enough evidence to put forth an argument that we will see manufacturing cease at some stage over the next 25 years or much sooner. Boomers and Gen X spend a significant amount of money on BD and 4K physical media, I would make the claim that these 2 generations make up more than 50% of the revenue the industry currently receives for BD and 4K BD disc and player sales. We can all see the signs that this hobby of collecting BD and 4K BD is starting to struggle and it’s facing some difficult challenges. Here’s where you need to answer the question or start agreeing with my comments and conceding if you can’t. Explain how the BD and 4K BD market will be able to be sustainably maintained long term when the majority of boomers pass away over the next 25 years and a lot of people in Gen X do to, so that it’s still capable of working, functioning, and existing successfully so that it’s economically viable? For every death of a boomer and Gen X BD/4KBD physical media collector there’s not going to be a person from Gen Z or Gen Alpha that takes up collecting to make up for the lost revenue.

[the-pi-guy]

Originally Posted by Youreallyareagerbil

Which has been my argument and it doesn’t appear that you understand that, you haven’t contended with my arguments to support what you’re saying here, and until you do I’m currently in lead in the debate about it.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=198

Bud, it's not a game. There's no prizes to win. There are no points.

I don't think either argument is particularly factual. I don't think anything is particularly wrong with anything that either you or Anthony P have said. Just different parts of being optimistic or pessimistic.

This still doesn’t contend with my argument though. Again saying that “Gen Z and Gen Alpha might become more interested in BD and 4KBD physical media and start buying more of them one day” isn’t an actual counter argument to my arguments in this debate.

I'm not really making an argument. The crux of what I'm saying is just nobody knows what the future holds. There are no guarantees in life. There's no guarantee that Warner won't shut down next year.

Even in my post you're responding to, I'm generally leaning towards you being right. It seems to me, you're just wanting to argue, even when people might actually agree with you.

Are you a Boomer or Gen Xer?

Nope. I'm on the cusp of Millennial and Gen Z.

Explain how the BD and 4K BD market will be able to be sustainably maintained long term when the majority of boomers pass away over the next 25 years and a lot of people in Gen X do to, so that it’s still capable of working, functioning, and existing successfully so that it’s economically viable? For every death of a boomer and Gen X BD/4KBD physical media collector there’s not going to be a person from Gen Z or Gen Alpha that takes up collecting to make up for the lost revenue.

At what point do companies stop making movies/tv shows on physical media? Just because they're objectively doing less doesn't mean they're at a point to stop.

What is a sustainable baseline for physical media? What is the point where it's no longer worth Criterion existing?

Physical media buying has dropped enormously, but several companies still feel it's worth existing.