Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

Bud, it's not a game. There's no prizes to win. There are no points.

No it’s not a game, it’s also not a discussion, it’s a debate. Anthony P has made some comments that I think are silly and outrageous, but he has been unwilling to or is unable to support his claims when asked.

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

I don't think either argument is particularly factual. I don't think anything is particularly wrong with anything that either you or Anthony P have said. Just different parts of being optimistic or pessimistic.

There are factual truths in what I have said. “I don’t think either argument is particularly factual” is an opinion. If you disagree then present evidence and facts to dispute it if you think the BD and 4K BD market that’s already showing signs of struggling will still be sustainable and viable long term from the revenue of Millennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha when the majority of the Boomer and Gen X generations have passed away, you need to explain how it will be possible and achievable in practice and you should be able to if you’re going to make such statements.

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

I'm not really making an argument. The crux of what I'm saying is just nobody knows what the future holds. There are no guarantees in life. There's no guarantee that Warner won't shut down next year.

I haven’t disagreed with that.

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

Even in my post you're responding to, I'm generally leaning towards you being right. It seems to me, you're just wanting to argue, even when people might actually agree with you.

I’m glad that you have seen the points in what I have been saying, I can’t say the same for Anthony P. I’m not just wanting to argue. That’s the way I feel about Anthony P though, that he just wants to argue for the sake of it, and there’s enough evidence to support why I feel that way in the last thread because he regularly just responds with a lot of nonsense and doesn’t acknowledge and address the points and arguments, and just keeps running with his same ideas and opinions.

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

Nope. I'm on the cusp of Millennial and Gen Z.

So am I, I fall just on the Millennial side.

Originally Posted by the-pi-guy

At what point do companies stop making movies/tv shows on physical media? Just because they're objectively doing less doesn't mean they're at a point to stop.

What is a sustainable baseline for physical media? What is the point where it's no longer worth Criterion existing?

Physical media buying has dropped enormously, but several companies still feel it's worth existing.

That’s what I have been asking Anthony P, because he has made comments like the one below.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

So like with LD back in the day or records today no matter how small the market is the market will always exist as long as there are people willing to buy because there will always be companies willing to go after these small fishes.

[Vilya]

If the discussions here are to be considered debates the decision as to who won or lost is not for any of the participants to adjudicate. Personal bias makes it impossible to impartially and fairly judge one's own performance. That much should be obvious.

Another requirement in academic debate at least is to provide proof of anything that is claimed to be true with citations supporting such claims. Any refutations also require citations. Hypotheses and theories have more validity when supported by the quoted opinions of experts in relevant fields of study rather than just those of the debate particpants- unless they themselves have credentials demonstrating their expertise. I am not seeing any of that here; just the usual layman opinions, metaphors, and anecdotes presented as the gospel truth. Do not demand evidence of your opponent's claim when you offer none supporting your own.

Specifically, I have not seen any independent demographic evidence as to who is buying physical media and to what extent. I have read plenty of opinions and I have some of my own, too, but I do not mistake my opinions for facts no matter how logical or compelling I find them to be.

Academic debates also provide a finite, but equal, amount of time for both sides to present their arguments and rebuttals before an impartial panel of judges declares a winner. Debates have definitive endings unlike the situations that we often have here.

The panel of judges in an academic debate would also never tolerate the exchange of disparaging comments between the participants. Academic debates are supposed to be civil and follow established rules of decorum. We do have a forum rule here that embodies that ideal:

"No bashing other members."

What we have here is far more a battle of wills and a war of attrition than anything resembling a debate. An old fashioned pissing contest in other words.

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If the discussions here are to be considered debates the decision as to who won or lost is not for any of the participants to adjudicate. Personal bias makes it impossible to impartially and fairly judge one's own performance. That much should be obvious.

Debates are won mostly on what’s the most factually accurate argument. Not subjective over objective.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Youreallyareagerbil

Debate are won on what’s the most factual argument.

Victory in a debate is NEVER determined by the participants.

Participants may well try and spin things to their advantage after the decision is rendered, but you can not be an impartial judge and a participant both.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

His inability to see a difference, or his unwillingness to admit the difference, is not the problem.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Bare in mind, for a good three years or so, he was using a rear projection set too.

Vilya you can't get so upset, you have to take care of yourself, Disc, Digital Streaming is all the same. Stream that same File and the Quality is the same, that's The Future!

I've had my 4K UHD Sony since 2016, and yes before that it was a 62" Mitsubishi DLP. I know I should get an upgrade, 75" UHD Sony MiniLED. Maybe this year.

IMO Movies and TV Shows will be stored on a Server either your Provider or HT Server in the Quality you'll pay. The Future is Fiber Networks to access all your Favorite Movies and TV Shows!

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Another requirement in academic debate at least is to provide proof of anything that is claimed to be true with citations supporting such claim

You do realise that by you posting all that about the rules of debating it’s just reinforcing what I said earlier, it says that you’re really just trying to defend your fellow forum friend Anthony P. Why can’t you bring yourself to agree with me instead of him, it seems like a hard thing for you to do?

I think most on here would agree at least those that are reasonable and are not irrational, that proof isn’t needed for much of what I have said because it’s pretty common knowledge, such as

“the player market has declined rapidly and there is enough evidence to put forth an argument that we will see manufacturing cease at some stage over the next 25 years or much sooner”

and

“Boomers and Gen X spend a significant amount of money on BD and 4K physical media, I would make the claim that these 2 generations make up more than 50% of the revenue the industry currently receives for BD and 4K BD disc and player sales”

and

“Video rental stores, DVD through mail, and kiosks, all rented out movie physical media, those rental businesses had to purchase their movie physical media stock from the movie studios and distributors. The revenue from rental services back then was a physical media sale and supported the physical media market. Streaming has now replaced those options for renting for the majority of people, so renting is no longer sales for physical media. Gen Z and Gen Alpha have grown up with streaming as an option and it is what a high percentage of people from those generations have chosen as their preferred way to watch content, Boomers and Gen X grew up with only physical media as an option, whether it was purchasing/collecting or renting”

and

“The 90s, 80s, 70s… Was a time in history where it was all physical media, streaming is not physical media, and that’s what Gen Z and Gen Alpha have grown up with and have embraced. The connection to physical media just isn’t the same and isn’t there for many people in the Gen Z and Gen Alpha generations as it was for Boomers and Gen X when they were young people“

And

“it’s a 2 person income economy to be able to afford a property for people nowadays, in the 80s and 90s one person in the household could stay home and not work and a home was affordable with just one income”

And

“I haven’t said that most people ever collected physical media content, but there is no denying that movie physical media sales figures have been significantly declining for years. What I have been saying is that collecting BD/4KBD physical media is even more of a niche with people in the Gen Z and Gen Alpha generations than it is with Boomers and Gen X”

Do you not agree?

Originally Posted by Vilya

Victory in a debate is NEVER determined by the participants.

Participants may well try and spin things to their advantage after the decision is rendered, but you can not be an impartial judge and a participant both.

How about you weigh in then? If you declare that Anthony P is the winner I would love to see you give your explanations outlined from an objective standpoint.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Vilya you can't get so upset, you have to take care of yourself, Disc, Digital Streaming is all the same. Stream that same File and the Quality is the same, that's The Future!

I've had my 4K UHD Sony since 2016, and yes before that it was a 62" Mitsubishi DLP. I know I should get an upgrade, 75" UHD Sony MiniLED. Maybe this year.

IMO Movies and TV Shows will be stored on a Server either your Provider or HT Server in the Quality you'll pay. The Future is Fiber Networks to access all your Favorite Movies and TV Shows!

I am not upset, so you need not worry about me.

Discs and streaming are not at all the same thing. I am not going to waste my time explaining the many differences to you again.

Streaming does not use the same file nor the same degree of compression and there is no indication of that changing anytime soon.

You often tell us that streaming is getting better, but in reality the codecs, the heavy compression, the low video bitrates, and the anemic audio bitrates have remained unchanged for several years. Netflix is the exception; they actually lowered their video bitrates even further.

The only other noticeable change is now you have to pay a premium to avoid commercials. None of this is an improvement.

I hope that you do get a new TV; you are way overdue.

Currently, streaming does not require fiber networks, but such networks offer other more meaningful benefits. Increased access to them would be a positive developement.

[Vilya]

The commonly accepted rules of academic debate apply equally to all who claim to be participating in one. My mentioning them favors neither party.

I admit that I like Anthony P and for that reason I would recuse myself from judging any debate involving him the same as I would with any participant known to me.

I will reserve my biased opinion until when, and if, there is ever a conclusion to your interminable discussion with him.

Certain statements can be accepted as self evident when both participants agree, such as the sun rises in the East, but without the demographic information that I mentioned previously it is not definitively known which generation buys what percentage of physical media nor do we know how it is trending with each generation over what window of time.

Without that factual basis predicting future generational trends is an just opinion based upon, well, an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions, don't we?

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The commonly accepted rules of academic debate apply equally to all who claim to be participating in one. My mentioning them favors neither party.

I admit that I like Anthony P and for that reason I would recuse myself from judging any debate involving him the same as I would with any participant known to me.

I will reserve my biased opinion until when, and if, there is ever a conclusion to your interminable discussion with him.

Certain statements can be accepted as self evident when both participants agree, such as the sun rises in the East, but without the demographic information that I mentioned previously it is not definitively known which generation buys what percentage of physical media nor do we know how it is trending with each generation over what window of time.

You argue just like Anthony, kings of evading, it’s hilarious.


Oh but you really have declared a winner in the way you have carried yourself in your posts, trying to one up me to help your friend, which you haven’t succeeded at, all because I committed what’s considered a moral sin in this thread by speaking negatively about Blu-ray, and weirdly you see me as threat for whatever reason.

If I achieved only one thing in this thread at least it was exposing the blatant hypocrisy and favouritism from some of the members that post in the thread, and I think you have done yourself a disservice in this discussion because you have proved you are one of them.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Without that factual basis predicting future generational trends is a just opinion based upon, well, an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions, don't we?

All of your talk about how debates work and the rules and here you’re demonstrating that you don’t know. My side is a prediction using far more facts than Anthony has provided to support his side. Vinyl has been the only argument that Anthony P has put forth that has any factual basis. As I previously said, debates are won mostly on what’s the most factually accurate. The argument with the mosts facts to support it wins.

[Vilya]

I do not see your comments as a criticism of the blu-ray format. You have made predictions about its future as have many others; I find nothing offensive about that.

If what you have been doing could ever be classified as a debate you would have been disqualified for your disparaging comments alone.

Debates are never won by belittling your opponent, or anyone else, and you do this in nearly every single post. Most of your statements are merely unsupported opinions and predictions based upon them.

I have not said one word in support of anything that Anthony has said in your endless dispute, but because I do not endorse your comments, either, I am somehow showing favoritism towards him. You are not making much sense on this point in particular. I said that I would reserve my judgment and that is what I intend to do.

You are free to think of me anyway that you wish, but remember that it is just another one of your opinions and nothing more.

[Youreallyareagerbil]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If what you have been doing could ever be classified as a debate you would have been disqualified for your disparaging comments alone.

Debates are never won by belittling your opponent, or anyone else, and you do this in nearly every single post. Most of your statements are merely unsupported opinions and predictions based upon them.

I have not said one word in support of anything that Anthony has said in your endless dispute, but because I do not endorse your comments, either, I am somehow showing favoritism towards him. You are not making much sense on this point in particular. I said that I would reserve my judgment and that is what I intend to do.

You are free to think of me anyway that you wish, but just remember that it is only your opinion and nothing more.

Who did I belittle? Where and how did I do that? What did I say? You’re clutching at straws here in a desperate attempt to try to defend your friends.

It’s clear that you also like to argue for the sake of it just like Anthony P. I thought Gen Z and Gen Alpha were the worse at doing that all over TikTok and Facebook, but today you showed that they’re more mature than you. A couple of days ago you made a comment in this thread about how you had heard that AVSforum is now a toxic place, I said in response that elsewhere some people say the same about Blu-ray.com, then another member said in response that they actually think Blu-ray.com is even worse. I really think you should take a step back and log off and reflect on that, because if you can’t see the toxicity coming from you in this thread, then as a person you’ve already lost.

[Vilya]

If I like to argue for the sake of it, you must absolutely love it.

You have posted these same comments ad nauseum 26 times in the Panasonic To Cut 10K Jobs, Exit Businesses thread and 25 times, and counting, in this thread. What is common throughout all of these posts is that you insult anyone who does not immediately agree with you on all points.

You have declared yourself the "winner" of your "debate" 51 times now; how many more declarations do you need to make before you believe yourself?

C the Evolution

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

If I like to argue for the sake of it, you must absolutely love it.

You have posted these same comments ad nauseum 26 times in the Panasonic To Cut 10K Jobs, Exit Businesses thread and 25 times, and counting, in this thread. What is common throughout all of these posts is that you insult anyone who does not immediately agree with you on all points.

You have declared yourself the "winner" of your "debate" 51 times now; how many more declarations do you need to make before you believe yourself?

C the Evolution

And he is gone, I’m pretty sure he was an ex member. Well, he certainly is now!

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

And he is gone, I’m pretty sure he was an ex member. Well, he certainly is now!

Maybe not

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by gotmule

Maybe not

Banned, unless he creates another account.

[bhampton]

It was nice to have someone on Alchav's side for a while.

What side is that? - “I don’t like it but I don’t want you to have it “

It's a bit of a strange side but there are crusaders for it.

[Ender14]

I think we need a round of Kumbaya.

[CV19]

Originally Posted by bhampton

It was nice to have someone on Alchav's side for a while.

What side is that? - The side of everyone uses streaming already but discs need to vanish so streaming can be the best quality available.

It's a bit of a strange side but there are crusaders for it.

I turn my back for a minute, and I miss all this discussion.

I quite like reading Alchav's posts when he discusses movie titles or TV shows he has watched and gives his opinion on them, regardless of how he watches them. However it's a shame he has to spoil things with his anti-disc posts. Personally I don't do any streaming at the moment so I'm not qualified to form a discussion about it, but if he is happy with what he uses, then fine.

[BluBonnet]

I don't want discs to go away... having said that, I do prefer to stream lot of the time even when I have it on disc b/c I want to save as much wear&tear as possible for my players.

[Gotho(redux)]

Originally Posted by BluBonnet

I don't want discs to go away... having said that, I do prefer to stream lot of the time even when I have it on disc b/c I want to save as much wear&tear as possible for my players.

That actually makes sense to me. For example, I have quite a few vhs tapes of movies that never made the leap to dvd or blu. Yet, I'm afraid to watch them, because I only have one player and if it breaks then I'm up the creek, lol.