Official Power Sound Audio Thread.

[CRAZYKAT]

Originally Posted by pretsam

4 days later I reply.. I completely over looked the page "25" link and thought you didn't reply since then lol.. I want to know how that XS30 is when you get it. It looks like such a great deal. The aesthetics of the subs are nice I think. I like the texture of the XV15 a lot I will say. It's nothing fancy or glossy, it's just nice black sand paper feel which I am sure helps with keeping cost down. They look great. I'd love to hear that XS30 in action. I've never really had a chance to listen to good sealed sub before. You'll be more than giddy when you get it. You couldn't ask for better help than ask Tom any questions you have. He's been a pleasure helping me with my silly questions bout things. Replying on weekends and couple days before the holidays. Barnone best CS you can get I've seen from 1 single person and company!

No problem, I'm thinking that I won't receive mine until mid or late January though. I will miss the first shipments.
I currently have a sub. with the texture finish and one in piano black and I feel that the texture finish is easier to keep clean,( no fingerprints ).
I looking forward to the Superior performance and sound that I believe I will receive with this unit.

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Spurrier Sucks

Which one? Room is an open concept room and 3 openings to other rooms. Would a XV30 play well with a XV15? 2 XV15s greater than 2 PC12 Plus? Thanks.

To best match the subwoofer to your performance expectations I would need to know the total room area and approximate distance between the subwoofer(s) and the key seating positions. After that, all we would need to do is figure out how loudly you will want the subwoofers to go without audible compression of any kind. Full reference levels? 10dB under?

While a XV30 and XV15 will work very well together(one is just a larger version of the other)...ideally you would want to use identical pairs if possible.

I'd say one XV15 is similar in performance to one PC+. So 2 of each would perform similar too.

Tom Vodhanel

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

Tom, how does the XS30 compare to the Epik Empire?? I tend to prefer sealed subs for tighter bass.

I think the output in the upper bass will be similar(we might have an edge but both will have so MUCH output >50hz I can't see a dB or two either way making any audible difference). The biggest difference in my opinion is the DSP in our amplifiers. This allows us to carefully shape the frequency response across the entire bandwidth. The XS30 is +/- 1dB from 30hz-200hz). You can compare that to the measurements of the empire at data-bass.

Under 30hz we fine tuned the rolloff to match up with typical room gain in medium to large rooms. So the "in room" frequency response should be relatively flat to 14hz-18hz AND still produce tactile energy all the way down to 7-11hz in all but the largest of rooms. The empire has a very steep highpass filter around 20hz. Every manufacturer has different goals but I like to avoid steep filtering for several reasons. First, you pretty much lose all reproduction capabilities much under the filter. Second, steep filtering tends to cause all sorts of issues with the quality of the bass. Group delay increases(bad thing), and the waterfall chart worsens, ringing(stored energy) increases.....all bad things that often affect the overall "quality" of the bass in my opinion.

Both subs represent really good values in my opinion although customer support seems to be hit or miss(with an emphasis on the latter).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Silo5]

Originally Posted by Tom V.

To best match the subwoofer to your performance expectations I would need to know the total room area and approximate distance between the subwoofer(s) and the key seating positions. After that, all we would need to do is figure out how loudly you will want the subwoofers to go without audible compression of any kind. Full reference levels? 10dB under?

While a XV30 and XV15 will work very well together(one is just a larger version of the other)...ideally you would want to use identical pairs if possible.

I'd say one XV15 is similar in performance to one PC+. So 2 of each would perform similar too.

Tom Vodhanel

I'm glad to hear that. My overall room dimensions are 28 X 35 with 7' 10" ceiling ( finished basement). Only a portion of it is used for HT (see photos in gallery). Svs recommended two PC+'s for my room, but the cost for two of them is keeping me away. Seeing that two XV15s would perform similar as two PC+'s, but at a more competitive price has peaked my interest.

[Bluvette]

Thanks Tom, I have to look into this much closer.

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

Thanks Tom, I have to look into this much closer.

If you already have an empire or two I don't think you would find the XS30s to be a "day/night" type of upgrade. They are really a good bang/buck sub. Just save for more movies and keep em..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Silo5

I'm glad to hear that. My overall room dimensions are 28 X 35 with 7' 10" ceiling ( finished basement). Only a portion of it is used for HT (see photos in gallery). Svs recommended two PC+'s for my room, but the cost for two of them is keeping me away. Seeing that two XV15s would perform similar as two PC+'s, but at a more competitive price has peaked my interest.

Okay, the photos really helped.

I only saw two of the polk 10s though(in the front corners). Did I miss the other two?

Have you calibrated the system either using the receiver's auto-setup routine or manually with a SPL meter? If so, how close to "reference level" do you push action oriented films? When calibrating receivers will almost always default to a *00* on the master volume display. That will be "reference volume level" after calibration. So if you never exceed say... *-10* on the volume with movies....we can say 10dB under reference level is the requirement.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Bluvette]

Thanks again Tom for your honesty. How are your ported subs for music? Most ported subs I have heard for music have been sloppy or muddy. The Empires are nice for midbass slam, but I am searching for a sub that digs a bit deeper, I maybe wanting to much. A sub that is tight and very musical yet can dig down deep for movies. Thanks for your help.

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

Thanks again Tom for your honesty. How are your ported subs for music? Most ported subs I have heard for music have been sloppy or muddy. The Empires are nice for midbass slam, but I am searching for a sub that digs a bit deeper, I maybe wanting to much. A sub that is tight and very musical yet can dig down deep for movies. Thanks for your help.

The problem you are going to have is your reference point is the empires----with their killer mid and upper bass "slam factor". Now, to keep that AND add extremely deep extension(approaching single digits?)....your options tend to be both limited and pricey.

The quality of the bass will be dependent on various factors. In my opinion with very careful engineering you can end up with a ported subwoofer that excels with both film and music source material. The general attributes that are responsible for sealed subwoofers being "musical" can be overlaid onto the performance characteristics of a ported subwoofer---it just isn't easy. (or even widely accepted as possible in many circles I've found out).

The tough part is correlating objective improvements with someone's subjective preferences. I can say...."performance metric A, B, C and D are better with the XV15 and that makes the quality of bass "better". But better to who? Well, me and Jim to start of course. But beyond that I can't speak with certainty as subjective preferences can be hard to argue with..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Bluvette]

How well do you think the XV15 would play with the Empires? I was going to try the HSU VTF-15H but I am unsure of the mix.

[Silo5]

Originally Posted by Tom V.

Okay, the photos really helped.

I only saw two of the polk 10s though(in the front corners). Did I miss the other two?

Have you calibrated the system either using the receiver's auto-setup routine or manually with a SPL meter? If so, how close to "reference level" do you push action oriented films? When calibrating receivers will almost always default to a *00* on the master volume display. That will be "reference volume level" after calibration. So if you never exceed say... *-10* on the volume with movies....we can say 10dB under reference level is the requirement.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

You may have been confused by my sig. I have four OWM3s as surrounds and two PSW10s. When you look at my sig, the four (4) appears to be next to the subs. Sorry for any confusion regarding that.( I will edit my sig).

I do have my Onkyo 805 calibrated with Audyssey, but I also have an SPL meter to boot. Using Audyssey, I use all eight postitions and mount the mic on a tripod.

As far as listening levels, I usually keep the volume around -20dB under reference. Sure, I would love to be able to keep it around -5dB or -10dB, but my wife would have issues with that. Still, I would like to have the capabilities to kick it up a bit when she isn't home

The Polk speakers are ok (for now), but I will upgrade them down the road. The PSW10s were "freebies" when I purchased the other speakers a few years ago. I knew all along that they were just temporary subs. When I upgrade them to "real subs", I want that upgrade to be a lasting one (then I can focus on speaker upgrades).

I hope this answers your questions and I appreciate you taking the time to help us here on this forum. I have a lot of respect for anyone taking the time to talk "one-on-one" with their customers.

[pretsam]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

How well do you think the XV15 would play with the Empires? I was going to try the HSU VTF-15H but I am unsure of the mix.

Since my parents are back out in their winter home in AZ, tonight I went over there and picked up my dads HSU STF-3 and MBM-12 MK2. I took off my Velo as I wanted to try these HSU with my XV15. I know they aren't the VTF-15H but i saw you mention HSU and mixing and i just finished setting them up so I wanted to chime in Blu. I put the STF-3 where my Velo was and put the MBM12 opposite of the XV15 behind my seating position since its not large. I am guessing my dad loves "gain" cause when I ran the STF3 solo and played I think WOTW, within a minute daughter came out of her room from bed and says "my walls are shaking behind my bed" and she is upstairs. I've never really heard a HSU really solo till now. It def had a different sound. I felt the STF3 to have high impact in the mids where it wanted to slam, hit, and shake the place. But I was very soon to find out it wasn't great at low extension as it easily started to pop reaching limits on WOTW at -18dB. So I started to dial it down to where my seat was and that took a good quarter of the gain or more off to reach the dB I was looking for my on my SPL(same with the MBM12). After setting up all speakers and adjusting the phase, I thought I had a solid setting for what I have to work with. Fired up WOTW and Tron.. Tron sounded great with all 3 subs working together. The cycle scene sounded awesome with the bass pounding an so forth. Fired up WOTW and was playing it at -15dB.. The STF3 met it's limits again as it gave out on 2 different scenes. I was little disappointed that is for sure. I know the STF3 is little older but I was hoping it would be able to hold it's own a little better as I've started to watch movies a little louder lately. This was also with AVR trim at 0. Anyway thanks for listening as I wanted to type this up.

[Bluvette]

Originally Posted by pretsam

Since my parents are back out in their winter home in AZ, tonight I went over there and picked up my dads HSU STF-3 and MBM-12 MK2. I took off my Velo as I wanted to try these HSU with my XV15. I know they aren't the VTF-15H but i saw you mention HSU and mixing and i just finished setting them up so I wanted to chime in Blu. I put the STF-3 where my Velo was and put the MBM12 opposite of the XV15 behind my seating position since its not large. I am guessing my dad loves "gain" cause when I ran the STF3 solo and played I think WOTW, within a minute daughter came out of her room from bed and says "my walls are shaking behind my bed" and she is upstairs. I've never really heard a HSU really solo till now. It def had a different sound. I felt the STF3 to have high impact in the mids where it wanted to slam, hit, and shake the place. But I was very soon to find out it wasn't great at low extension as it easily started to pop reaching limits on WOTW at -18dB. So I started to dial it down to where my seat was and that took a good quarter of the gain or more off to reach the dB I was looking for my on my SPL(same with the MBM12). After setting up all speakers and adjusting the phase, I thought I had a solid setting for what I have to work with. Fired up WOTW and Tron.. Tron sounded great with all 3 subs working together. The cycle scene sounded awesome with the bass pounding an so forth. Fired up WOTW and was playing it at -15dB.. The STF3 met it's limits again as it gave out on 2 different scenes. I was little disappointed that is for sure. I know the STF3 is little older but I was hoping it would be able to hold it's own a little better as I've started to watch movies a little louder lately. This was also with AVR trim at 0. Anyway thanks for listening as I wanted to type this up.

Thanks for the response. The Empires will not give in so willingly a matter a fact they do not even work up a sweat. But am looking for a sub to work with my Empires that can do the deep lows maybe mid teens. I think the HSU VTF-15H can but how about the XV15. The Seatons are nice but a bit pricey.

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

How well do you think the XV15 would play with the Empires? I was going to try the HSU VTF-15H but I am unsure of the mix.

The 3 mains issues here----

1)ideally, you want two different subs to share the same output capabilities.

2)You also want them (barring rare circumstances) to share the same extension capabilities.

Related to both of these is the frequency response. Again, you want the response curves to be as close as possible.

3)phase shifts. If these are significantly different you may encounter cancellation issues at certain frequencies.


Keeping the empires in the room---but looking to add extension will be difficult. Again----it goes back to the tremendous output capabilities in the mid and upper bass. For you to get a good sense on the real low stuff(5-15hz) it would need to be fairly close in volume level to the mid and upper bass. There are a FEW scenes around that have good <16hz bass with no mid and upper bass content...but its really rare.

I might be getting off track here...

Anyway---I would concentrate on extension down to at least 10hz. The empires should be fine down to 17-19hz....so I'd look at adding at an octave to your extension to really make a noticeable improvement.

I'm not sure is the 15h will get you that. Even in sealed mode at best it is still 25dB down at 10hz. Unless you have a small, sealed room....there's no way you can expect 25dB of room gain at 10hz. Half that would be typical in most home theaters.

The XV15 will have about the same drop by 10hz(26-28dB iird). So again----based on my recommendation of flat/10hz....I'd skip the XV15 too.

The only two subs I can think of that will extend down to 10hz AND be able to keep up with the empires >50hz are the submersive and the xs30s. Well, the only two at anything close to the price point you were considering anyway.

I know this is a long shot but I don't suppose you know anyone withi driving distance to you that could bring their submersive over and see what you think of it in your own room?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Silo5

You may have been confused by my sig. I have four OWM3s as surrounds and two PSW10s. When you look at my sig, the four (4) appears to be next to the subs. Sorry for any confusion regarding that.( I will edit my sig).

I do have my Onkyo 805 calibrated with Audyssey, but I also have an SPL meter to boot. Using Audyssey, I use all eight postitions and mount the mic on a tripod.

As far as listening levels, I usually keep the volume around -20dB under reference. Sure, I would love to be able to keep it around -5dB or -10dB, but my wife would have issues with that. Still, I would like to have the capabilities to kick it up a bit when she isn't home

The Polk speakers are ok (for now), but I will upgrade them down the road. The PSW10s were "freebies" when I purchased the other speakers a few years ago. I knew all along that they were just temporary subs. When I upgrade them to "real subs", I want that upgrade to be a lasting one (then I can focus on speaker upgrades).

I hope this answers your questions and I appreciate you taking the time to help us here on this forum. I have a lot of respect for anyone taking the time to talk "one-on-one" with their customers.

Hi Silo5,

I think we are now "cooking with gas" as the saying goes..


Even though you consider 20dB under reference to be close to the loudest levels you would usually use----your idea of having enough headroom for louder levels is the same thing I was thinking. First, when you have plenty of extra headroom the speakers/subwoofers will always be "coasting". Distortions will be very low, and you have gobs of dynamic capability in reserve. Second---as you mentioned there WILL be times when you can "crank things" a bit. so let's shoot for something in the 6-9dB under reference range.

You have over 7000 cu-ft, but the home theater area is confined to a space much smaller than that. Based on the photos I'd say the distance from the subwoofers to your key seating is maybe 4-5 meters? If that is close a single XV15 just might "do it" for you. I'd estimate extension down to the 15-17hz range with clean output capabilities of 112-118dB at your seating positions.

With all speakers set to small and the bass set 2-3dB "hot"(as most tend to prefer it..)...full reference level can require 121dB(ish) at the seats. So 112-118dB of headroom would be fine for master volume levels 6-9dB under reference. The only caveat in all of this is you'll be right at the maximum capabilities of a single XV15 at those louder levels so it MIGHT take "duals" to really give you that "effortless" type of bass. And who knows...with everyone gone shopping you might want to try a couple of demos at full reference now and then?

Anyway----here is an idea. Try a single XV15. If, within your 30 day trial you decide it IS going to take duals to give you that "wow factor" we will discount your second XV15 order 10%. This would give you the total price of $1518(including delivery) which is the same as the "dual discount" price for XV15s.

Along with the much deeper extension and much cleaner/louder output capability I'm confident you'll find the overall bass "quality" to be significantly improved---particularly with music source material(favorite concert DVD for example).


You're quite welcome for any help I can offer. Jim and both just like talking "shop" so this certainly doesn't feel like "work" in the least to either of us.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

Thanks for the response. The Empires will not give in so willingly a matter a fact they do not even work up a sweat. But am looking for a sub to work with my Empires that can do the deep lows maybe mid teens. I think the HSU VTF-15H can but how about the XV15. The Seatons are nice but a bit pricey.

Hi Bluevette,

BTW----have a blu vette?

I might have asked already but how large is the room and are there any large openings to other areas of the home? I looked over your gallery (nice!) but didn't see room dimensions? Maybe 20x12x8 or something close to that?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Bluvette]

Originally Posted by Tom V.

Hi Bluevette,

BTW----have a blu vette?

I might have asked already but how large is the room and are there any large openings to other areas of the home? I looked over your gallery (nice!) but didn't see room dimensions? Maybe 20x12x8 or something close to that?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Yes, I do have a blue vette. My HT is sealed and room size is 20X11X8 you were very close.

[Tom V.]

Originally Posted by Bluvette

Yes, I do have a blue vette. My HT is sealed and room size is 20X11X8 you were very close.

If you wanna trade the Vette for a couple subs let me know...


Have you ever taken any response measurements at your seats? I'm a bit curious as to how the FR of the epiks is working in a smaller sealed area like this.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

[Tom V.]

double

[PurpleJesus74]

Hi Tom,a friend brought over a blu ray called Project X that he knew had some rap songs with really low bass.We were floored at how low the bass was,he or i had never heard anything that low in a HT only in a car.He might be persuaded to buy a PSA sub as his Cerwin speakers cannot compare .I havent come across too many other blu rays with LFE that low,but i definitely got a taste of what i've been missing.I still need to get some exact measurements of my room but i only sit maybe 10 ft. away from the sub so i think its the perfect size,unless i order a second one lol.