Suspiria (1977) (Remastered)

[redxrebellion]

Originally Posted by El_Fez

I think most of today's movie buyers would burst into flames if they had to pay the 150 dollars for a CAV version of Aliens - and that was when Ken Kranes had one of their sales!

I remember paying $110 for that Aliens set back in '92 or '93. Still have it in my closet

[MacEoin]

Originally Posted by Jlouisbarrett

Because reviewers base their reviews/statements on things like press releases and what's told to them by the label...

So Anchor Bay lied?

[Mpmarks1975]

Yeah glory days of importing laserdisc in the UK, that's why I don't sweat occasionally paying higher prices for some of today's media.

[Mpmarks1975]

Originally Posted by MacEoin

So Anchor Bay lied?

You will have no luck as the official Muth stance with Tovoli has changed over time. Which is to be expected all things considered.

[jlk5844]

Originally Posted by Shingster

I started that sentence saying the image is flat. THAT is what makes the colors look muted. Now do you wanna argue with me that flat blacks don't wash out the look of an image?

Yes, specifically lack of deep blue tones, you will haver to forgive my prickliness because many of us have debated this over and over and over. Many scenes the blues are washed out and yes, many scenes have a green cast or hue or lighting and when the blues are washed out it allows the green to dominate (like the infamous shot of Jessica Harper in the doorway, which is significantly greener on the TLE). Other scenes we see red washing out the watery blues, and so on. The blues are weak throughout much of this film (but there are other scenes with strong blues/purples, so again IT'S NOT A BLANKET THING) So yeah, there is no blanket cast (green or otherwise) throughout the entire film like you see with a Ritrovata restoration. Screenshots have been posted with no significant green push evident, like shot 11 in the caps-a-holic comparison (which isn't a very expressive comparison) and a number of others posted by myself and saltysam across the various threads that have discussed the TLE. Even Christian Muth, who obviously hates the the TLE restoration and has called it "puke green" on more than one occassion, has conceded that not every scene is affected. The green look is a persistant problem on the TLE, but it's not a constant.

I'm not going to argue any further about this jlk because I've been there and bought the T-shrit in this thread alone about five or six times now. You have an opposing opinion, fine. People will simply persist in simplifying colour issues to blanket tints because they don't want to think or address the complex nature of colour restoration. It's easier to just say "oh it's got a green tint" and leave it at that, doing restorations a tremendous disservice. My opinion from the start has always been that the TLE restoration looks beautiful, but I DON'T KNOW IT'S ACCURATE. There's strong doubt there. The upcoming Synapse release looks beautiful and I'm leaning towards that as the most accurate look simply because it's my preferred look. BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S ACCURATE.

You see, I'm not going to shit on one restoration to justify my purchasing another, I'm perfectly happy with there being two "duelling" restorations out there because, AFAIAC, it's win-win for the fans. If people prefer the TLE, good for them. No judgment from me. Just enjoy the ****ing film. For years we've been lumbered with releases struck from the same horrendous master that absolutely ruined the look of the film, now we have two gorgeous restorations to choose from and people still insist on giving members on these boards shit for preferring one look over the other. heck they'll jump on your posts even if you're not actually criticising either release and just trying to sum up the situation for newbie fans trying to make a decision. It's pathetic.

Way to cherry pick my post and not acknowledge much of what I typed which contradicts the things you're accusing me of. Where in that post did I shit on the TLE? I said it was serviceable. I can critique it, even if you don't agree with my observations. You're also reading too much into my post in saying that I'm bashing the TLE purely because I was, as you seem to imply, intending to purchase the Synapse from the start. I'm not some blind fanboy (Synapse has disappointed me a few times), but at the end of the day I do want to buy what looks correct and more appealing to myself.

I never attacked people who prefer the TLE, just pointing out what is clearly there. I don't see how pointing out a flaw of the transfer qualifies you to paint me as completely ignorant of the complexities of restoration. I'm not simplifying the transfer down to one thing, I'm just discussing one (problematic) aspect of it that the Synapse doesn't have. Besides, I did mention the brightness too, not just the green cast. I don't see the TLE the same way you do, but you don't need to resort to these slanderous remarks. In fact, I do think some caps of the TLE look great, just not accurate. I also said I didn't claim to be an expert on accuracy and it's all opinion, so why are you making it seem like I did say that??

Also, I did say that the green cast isn't visible in every shot. I said it's not as intense as The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, a Ritrovata restoration. I do believe it's there throughout, but it's subtle. You're not going to see it in cap 5 on caps-a-holic obviously, because the image is dominated by a deep red. It's even in cap 11, the sky is a greener shade of blue (not super teal or turquoise or whatever, but it's unquestionably affected), not baby blue like in the German BD or the others. I'm not claiming as some expert that it's inaccurate, but that's what I feel it is.

Look at cap 1 and you can see green in the entire image, but particularly the black and red in the building and the white in her dress.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46522&i=0&l=0

Look at cap 2 and you can see it's affected the red and white of the walls.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46523&i=1&l=0

It's visible in the entirety of cap 3: the blue wall, her white dress and the window, the brown floor and suits.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46524&i=2&l=0

In cap 4 the white and black wall is affected.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46525&i=3&l=0

In all four of those caps and more, when I toggle between the two Blu-rays it's like a green blanket is lifted, sorry to say. Whatever you want to call it, there is a green bias affecting the transfer. It's plain as day. Don't know what to tell you. Yes, it's not readily apparent in every cap but it seems foolish to me to suggest that it's conveniently only in the ones where the frame is not dominated by a single color caused by lighting (the red in cap 5 or the green in cap 9).
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46526&i=4&l=0
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46530&i=8&l=0

(side note: I'm only comparing color, nothing else like detail, etc.)

Whatever the case, I do personally feel it is inaccurate and would like others to know that. They can go on caps-a-holic and form their own opinion if they like. Lastly, I do think flat blacks wash out an image, I just don't consider flatness to be a cause of something in an image, but rather an effect, and that would be the brightness levels. If this were any other movie, I wouldn't be as prickly about it, but it's Suspiria. It's supposed to look like Technicolor and the TLE with its dim brightness and green bias, does not.

[samlop10]

I watched this 4K restoration last night here at the AFS Cinema and for the most part it was an astounding presentation. There were a few scenes in which the colors seemed a bit over saturated and a bit of detail was lost due to clipping, but for the most part it looked excellent. The audio was a revelation too. Of course it's limited by the conditions in which it was originally created (completely done and added in post production and the fact that it was made in the 70s) but taking this into account, the audio restoration is probably the best it will ever sound. I will definitely be adding this to my collection.

In regards to how accurate this one is versus the Italian and German blu-rays... I really could not say. They both have merit (they both used information from first-hand sources) so it is very difficult to say which one is more accurate. I own the Italian blu-ray and I can say that the audio in the Synapse restoration does sound better overall. The picture is where uncertainty hits. Unless more information is released, by some miracle, about both transfers which provides a definitive answer, I think each viewer will have to individually decide which one to buy and keep as their definitive copy.

Personally, I would prefer the 4.0 English track from the Synapse transfer but with the picture from the Italian/German transfer, just because the colors are more subdued but still look vibrant, and because it retains slightly more detail than the Synapse one.

At the end I don't think people can wrong with either one. Both of them have merit and while neither one is perfect, IMO, both are still great transfers.

[jlk5844]

Originally Posted by happydood

Wonderful post. Too many people fear that somebody liking something is an affront to them liking something else. There are clearly cases to be made for both of these restorations. I'm fine with that.

There are people like that on this forum, other forums, and in life, but that wasn't me. I was just disagreeing with him because his claim about the green cast struck me as false and contradicting the evidence in front of him, and he was being combative. It also was spreading of misinformation, because obviously people are deciding on which to buy. I am ok with people liking what they like though, and if that's the TLE then so be it.

[Ray Jackson]

Still not sold out.

It better sell out.

I bought this thing so that I could have an exclusive status symbol.

...something to impress the ladies with.

[Show spoiler]

[grounden88]

Originally Posted by samlop10

I watched this 4K restoration last night here at the AFS Cinema and for the most part it was an astounding presentation. There were a few scenes in which the colors seemed a bit over saturated and a bit of detail was lost due to clipping, but for the most part it looked excellent. The audio was a revelation too. Of course it's limited by the conditions in which it was originally created (completely done and added in post production and the fact that it was made in the 70s) but taking this into account, the audio restoration is probably the best it will ever sound. I will definitely be adding this to my collection.

In regards to how accurate this one is versus the Italian and German blu-rays... I really could not say. They both have merit (they both used information from first-hand sources) so it is very difficult to say which one is more accurate. I own the Italian blu-ray and I can say that the audio in the Synapse restoration does sound better overall. The picture is where uncertainty hits. Unless more information is released, by some miracle, about both transfers which provides a definitive answer, I think each viewer will have to individually decide which one to buy and keep as their definitive copy.

Personally, I would prefer the 4.0 English track from the Synapse transfer but with the picture from the Italian/German transfer, just because the colors are more subdued but still look vibrant, and because it retains slightly more detail than the Synapse one.

At the end I don't think people can wrong with either one. Both of them have merit and while neither one is perfect, IMO, both are still great transfers.

I was there last night as well! Good turnout, I thought. Like you, I do prefer the Italian transfer, but that's not saying I didn't enjoy myself.

[Baron Blood]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Still not sold out.

It better sell out.

I bought this thing so that I could have an exclusive status symbol.

...something to impress the ladies with.

[Show spoiler]

I take it there's no "deep sound" coming from your toilet to impress the ladies.

[TripleHBK]

Originally Posted by Ray Jackson

Still not sold out.

It better sell out.

I bought this thing so that I could have an exclusive status symbol.

...something to impress the ladies with.

[Show spoiler]

I stand by my original comments.

Originally Posted by TripleHBK

As far as how long these will last... I predict that they will still have copies available in December, if not well into Spring. I feel that the popularity of this film is grossly over estimated and that while around 2000 - 3000 may possibly sell in the next 4 weeks... that remaining stock of the film will linger on as have other steelbook releases.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by grounden88

I was there last night as well! Good turnout, I thought. Like you, I do prefer the Italian transfer, but that's not saying I didn't enjoy myself.

Yeah! Same here. I do lean towards the Italian one but I enjoyed it quite a bit as well. I did notice the theater was pretty full too. It almost looked like it sold out. I'm glad though since it seems to be getting more exposure and some people there were watching it for the first time.

[prkchopexpress]

maybe these will move quicker once a release date is announced.

[Se.Vero]

Originally Posted by jlk5844

[Show spoiler]Way to cherry pick my post and not acknowledge much of what I typed which contradicts the things you're accusing me of. Where in that post did I shit on the TLE? I said it was serviceable. I can critique it, even if you don't agree with my observations. You're also reading too much into my post in saying that I'm bashing the TLE purely because I was, as you seem to imply, intending to purchase the Synapse from the start. I'm not some blind fanboy (Synapse has disappointed me a few times), but at the end of the day I do want to buy what looks correct and more appealing to myself.

I never attacked people who prefer the TLE, just pointing out what is clearly there. I don't see how pointing out a flaw of the transfer qualifies you to paint me as completely ignorant of the complexities of restoration. I'm not simplifying the transfer down to one thing, I'm just discussing one (problematic) aspect of it that the Synapse doesn't have. Besides, I did mention the brightness too, not just the green cast. I don't see the TLE the same way you do, but you don't need to resort to these slanderous remarks. In fact, I do think some caps of the TLE look great, just not accurate. I also said I didn't claim to be an expert on accuracy and it's all opinion, so why are you making it seem like I did say that??

Also, I did say that the green cast isn't visible in every shot. I said it's not as intense as The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, a Ritrovata restoration. I do believe it's there throughout, but it's subtle. You're not going to see it in cap 5 on caps-a-holic obviously, because the image is dominated by a deep red. It's even in cap 11, the sky is a greener shade of blue (not super teal or turquoise or whatever, but it's unquestionably affected), not baby blue like in the German BD or the others. I'm not claiming as some expert that it's inaccurate, but that's what I feel it is.

Look at cap 1 and you can see green in the entire image, but particularly the black and red in the building and the white in her dress.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46522&i=0&l=0

Look at cap 2 and you can see it's affected the red and white of the walls.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46523&i=1&l=0

It's visible in the entirety of cap 3: the blue wall, her white dress and the window, the brown floor and suits.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46524&i=2&l=0

In cap 4 the white and black wall is affected.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46525&i=3&l=0

In all four of those caps and more, when I toggle between the two Blu-rays it's like a green blanket is lifted, sorry to say. Whatever you want to call it, there is a green bias affecting the transfer. It's plain as day. Don't know what to tell you. Yes, it's not readily apparent in every cap but it seems foolish to me to suggest that it's conveniently only in the ones where the frame is not dominated by a single color caused by lighting (the red in cap 5 or the green in cap 9).
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46526&i=4&l=0
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a...=46530&i=8&l=0

(side note: I'm only comparing color, nothing else like detail, etc.)

Whatever the case, I do personally feel it is inaccurate and would like others to know that. They can go on caps-a-holic and form their own opinion if they like. Lastly, I do think flat blacks wash out an image, I just don't consider flatness to be a cause of something in an image, but rather an effect, and that would be the brightness levels. If this were any other movie, I wouldn't be as prickly about it, but it's Suspiria. It's supposed to look like Technicolor and the TLE with its dim brightness and green bias, does not.

we should not forget that TLE did the restoration but had and has nothing to do with how that restoration ends up on disc. torsten kaiser mentioned several times that the slight green push in some scenes on the italian disc will not be on the german one, and that the german disc would have definitely improved encoding and different handling of compression.

it would be interesting to see a comparison between the italian and the german disc.

i just wanted to point out that people keep talking about the italian disc as if that was 100% of what TLE were doing. which it is not.

[kidglov3s]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

we should not forget that TLE did the restoration but had and has nothing to do with how that restoration ends up on disc. torsten kaiser mentioned several times that the slight green push in some scenes on the italian disc will not be on the german one, and that the german disc would have definitely improved encoding and different handling of compression.

it would be interesting to see a comparison between the italian and the german disc.

i just wanted to point out that people keep talking about the italian disc as if that was 100% of what TLE were doing. which it is not.

There was a comparison in the DE disc thread:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...=289413&page=9

But it has gone dead. There were no differences in color, only in compression.

[kishiro]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

we should not forget that TLE did the restoration but had and has nothing to do with how that restoration ends up on disc. torsten kaiser mentioned several times that the slight green push in some scenes on the italian disc will not be on the german one, and that the german disc would have definitely improved encoding and different handling of compression.

it would be interesting to see a comparison between the italian and the german disc.

i just wanted to point out that people keep talking about the italian disc as if that was 100% of what TLE were doing. which it is not.

Well the german disc is out. I own both the german and the italian release. There's been posted a comparison in one of the threads on this board... somewhere... , and I can tell you they look completely indistinguishable. The only real difference is the inclusion of the 2.0 English Stereo track on the german BD. (The Italian only has the 5.1 upmix and an alternative mono-mix which is missing a lot of background effects).

[Se.Vero]

thanks guys, completely missed that thread

[mar3o]

Looking at those comparison caps a few pages back on my TV tonight, it's clear that the Italian/German release is almost devoid of the color blue. How is anybody okay with this when blue was such an important part of the color scheme for Suspiria? Oh yeah, Synapse must have "boosted' the color until all that blue appeared. And the Italian is soo dark.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by prkchopexpress

this is absolutely about being cheap. YOU think YOU can decide what the movie is worth.

this isn't a swap meet. I don't know why you feel you should be able to haggle. or hold out because you feel entitled to spend less money than what was announced.

I'm glad quantity of titles is more important that spending more on a decent package.

also, for all the cheapskates, what do you think the market for arguably obscure titles is? when people just want to stream and don't feel they need to buy titles anymore...

and why would you even want a barebones copy? why do you even decide to purchase a copy, let alone multiple copies like some of us as, if not for the extras?

also I love all these "experts" who think "they're just losing if they don't put out a cheaper version for me because I'm cheap"

how does you not waiting to buy it when it comes out in hope of spending less money equate to more money being made by the company or distributors? I would love to see your math on this.

Wow, pretty harsh. Everyone has a different idea of what they can afford and what they feel something is worth. I see nothing wrong with that. I have my pre-order in but if it had cost any more I would not have been able to. This pushed the boundary of what my budget can afford for a single film, but I made an exception for this title. It's not about being cheap. It's about having a budget. What laserdiscs and VHS tapes cost decades ago has no bearing on what discs cost now as far as I'm concerned.

[Smegma]

Originally Posted by prkchopexpress

this is absolutely about being cheap. YOU think YOU can decide what the movie is worth.

this isn't a swap meet. I don't know why you feel you should be able to haggle. or hold out because you feel entitled to spend less money than what was announced.

We, the market, always decide what something is worth. Synapse can ask whatever they like for it: but if consumers decide it isn't worth the asking price, the discs may sit in a warehouse until they are marked down for clearance.