Suspiria (1977) (Remastered)

[takeasneededforpain]

What the hell are we arguing about now?

[whysleep]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

Synapse: 2017 representation of how many people wish the film should look in 2017 (modern, digitally tweaked colours, boosted contrast, higher brightness).

What kind of alternate 2017 are you from...?

[Se.Vero]

Originally Posted by whysleep

What kind of alternate 2017 are you from...?

The 2017 were people prefer colours of movies shot on film to look like digital HDR10 stuff.

[whysleep]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

The 2017 were people prefer colours of movies shot on film to look like digital HDR10 stuff.

I'm sorry, but colorful and high contrast movies have much less in common with contemporary film making than 70s/technicolor film making. If you're going to throw accusations of revisionism around you should realize that if one of the two looks more contemporary when it comes to contrast that would be the TLE restoration.

[Se.Vero]

Originally Posted by whysleep

I'm sorry, but colorful and high contrast movies have much less in common with contemporary film making than 70s/technicolor film making. If you're going to throw accusations of revisionism around you should realize that if one of the two looks more contemporary when it comes to contrast that would be the TLE restoration.

None of us has actually seen the synapse BD, so i said what i would expect.
And I expect the synapse restoration to have boosted contrast, too much brightness, clipping whites, black crush, and last but not least, too much blue. [emoji39]

[whysleep]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

None of us has actually seen the synapse BD, so i said what i would expect.

I'm obviously basing it on the screencaps. But we both have seen the TLE restoration, and its look and approach to contrast fit your definition of contemporary revisionism.

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

And I expect the synapse restoration to have boosted contrast, too much brightness, clipping whites, black crush, and last but not least, too much blue. [emoji39]

Which, as bad as it may be, doesn't fit your definition of contemporary revisionism. Not to mention Suspiria is meant to have boosted contrast, but that's another story...

[Se.Vero]

Originally Posted by whysleep

I'm obviously basing it on the screencaps. But we both have seen the TLE restoration, and its look and approach to contrast fit your definition of contemporary revisionism.



Which, as bad as it may be, doesn't fit your definition of contemporary revisionism. Not to mention Suspiria is meant to have boosted contrast, but that's another story...

TLE looks accurate to me, others already pointed out that the colours don't look muted at all like in the screencaps provided by synapse.

Contemporary revisionism would be a teal, muted look like in arrow's "female prisoner scorpion" set, but it could also go the opposite way, if synapse tries to tweak the colours away from what can actually be seen on the print used for the restoration.

TLE used different prints, and they all matched. Synapse used only one, plus a guy that has proven more than once that he either gives a s**t about accuracy (Bird with the crystal plumage in wrong aspect ratio) or he simply doesn't remember much.

[Se.Vero]

Sorry double post which my phone refuses to delete.

[whysleep]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

TLE looks accurate to me, others already pointed out that the colours don't look muted at all like in the screencaps provided by synapse.

Contemporary revisionism would be a teal, muted look like in arrow's "female prisoner scorpion" set, but it could also go the opposite way, if synapse tries to tweak the colours away from what can actually be seen on the print used for the restoration.

TLE used different prints, and they all matched. Synapse used only one, plus a guy that has proven more than once that he either gives a s**t about accuracy (Bird with the crystal plumage in wrong aspect ratio) or he simply doesn't remember much.

Ok, several things wrong with your post. First, the TLE has a completely different... "white point" (I'm sorry, I don't know the technical term in English) from all previously released versions, not just Synapse's, and that's where the idea of a "green tint" comes from, which results in a comparatively "muted" look, which, together with the greenish look, does fit your definition of contemporary revisionism as written above. (I'm not saying it's the case, though, I doubt it is.) Second, the TLE does look great, and one does get used to it, but the caps provided by Synapse are legit, as you can see for example in caps-a-holic, or the blu ray itself, if you have it. Third, Suspiria's dp is Luciano Tovoli, Bird's is Vittorio Storaro, so there goes your point. You could also take a look at how the TLE restoration differs from the reference print in several ways. I'm not defending the Synapse restoration, I haven't seen it yet, I'm just remaining objective regarding the TLE, which, despite great, remains flawed.

[Se.Vero]

Originally Posted by whysleep

Ok, several things wrong with your post. First, the TLE has a completely different... "white point" (I'm sorry, I don't know the technical term in English) from all previously released versions, not just Synapse's, and that's where the idea of a "green tint" comes from, which results in a comparatively "muted" look, which, together with the greenish look, does fit your definition of contemporary revisionism as written above. (I'm not saying it's the case, though, I doubt it is.) Second, the TLE does look great, and one does get used to it, but the caps provided by Synapse are legit, as you can see for example in caps-a-holic, or the blu ray itself, if you have it. Third, Suspiria's dp is Luciano Tovoli, Bird's is Vittorio Storaro, so there goes your point. You could also take a look at how the TLE restoration differs from the reference print in several ways. I'm not defending the Synapse restoration, I haven't seen it yet, I'm just remaining objective regarding the TLE, which, despite great, remains flawed.

Damn, I mixed up Tovoli with Storaro, my bad. As for the other points, I will just stay calm, and wait, and see ( in a few months) which version I actually prefer. If it turns out that the synapse version is flawless and looks better, I will not state the opposite. [emoji6]

[Hek_qwerr]

just joined some of you fine folks,was waiting to get paid 😎 preordered

[El_Fez]

Originally Posted by Hek_qwerr

just joined some of you fine folks,was waiting to get paid 😎 preordered

One of us - YouTube

[2-perf]

Originally Posted by Kentai

Honest question for those of you who know more about about film processing techniques than myself:

Suspiria was shot on Eastman color stock and then processed using the IB Technicolor dye process, correct? I don't know all of the details but I know Argento and Tovoli talked extensively about it on the 2001 Anchor Bay retrospective, and mentioned that they specifically used processes to make the film more vivid than would have been possible using more contemporary means.

As an idiot who's never dealt with actual 35mm - much less Technicolor hardware that's been out of operation since before my birth - I imagine the chain would look something like this:

- Eastman OCN >Eastman IP > 3-Strip IB Internegative > IB Print

Meanwhile, a more contemporary Eastman Color print would be like so:

- Eastman OCN > Eastman IP > Eastman IN > Eastman Print

The now infamous "Master Print" held by the BFI appears to be a low-contrast print struck from an Internegative, so while not definitive it does, at least, hold some water as being a decent enough reference to "as it was" on release. Assuming it's still in good shape, it's at least more objective than the DP's now-40 year old memory, with all due respect to the talented Mr. Tovoli.

As someone who, again, knows far too little about actual celluloid, IB produces bolder colors, skips the intermediate print steps introducing lesser generation loss, and effectively doesn't fade, which is exactly why the BFI made an IB print of the UK Interneg for archival purposes... but, wouldn't a print like this be pulled from the IB Matrix - not an Interneg? Ideally you went from the cut negative to a three-color Matrix and then made the prints straight from there - isn't that a big part of why films like The Godfather were in such rough shape?


But hey, let's assume all Italian prints were all IB as expected. If that's the case - and it could be! - then why is the recently-unearthed Italian print already faded? That would imply it was an Eastman print - and if so, would going IB > Eastman effectively nullify the outrageous color pallet choices in the first place to some degree due to the single-strip used to generate multiple colors? Unless the recently discovered print is on the... *ahem* gray market side of things, it should be essentially identical to how it looked on release. And assuming everything down the line was given the IB treatment, all four of the archival prints that both TLE and Synapse were given access to also, in theory, should be a (more or less) accurate representation of how they looked on release anyway.

In short, while I have no doubt that Argento and Tovoli are telling the truth about their IB prints, I doubt we're actually seeing them four decades later - and that only raises further questions. Either that, or I'm very confused about how these prints were made, which wouldn't surprise me...

I already know from experience there are multiple English audio mixes - the cut American print audio actually matches the Anchor Bay 5.1 remix everyone hated very closely, for example - so is it not possible that there are - or, were - a handful of proper IB prints for the films' premiere, and then a number of less ambitious (read: cheaper to make) Eastman prints struck for the wider release, not unlike how "big" movies during the same period would get a 70mm blow-up for major cities and cheaper 35mm prints for everywhere else? I don't know what was common at the time, and I also know Suspiria was the last title IB title Technicolor Rome produced before selling the printers to China. So if those prints were struck later, or were made by a second facility based on the work Technicolor Rome did, odds are they'd be Eastman prints anyway.

...or, that's what this idiot thinks. I'm sure I'm missing a huge amount of context and information, and if someone can tell me how wrong I am, I'd love to hear it.

If what I'm thinking is even somewhat true, I don't think this is necessarily a case of TLE being "wrong" and Synapse being "right" for producing a dark and pumped up version, respectively - I think it's a simple case of TLE trying to emulate the vintage Eastman prints and Synapse trying to emulate the vintage IB prints.

I'm not interested in assuming who's "right" - I think the Italian BD looks fine, quite similar to the 35mm American print I saw a few years ago even. I also think the Synapse screenshots and sample clips look fantastic in their own right - but I'll say that having both versions for sale is pretty exciting. Already have my pre-order in for Synapse's release, and you can bet I'll grab the Italian UHD import as soon as I have the hardware to make actual use of it.


A quick anecdote for everyone who thinks the "prettier" transfer must be the "more accurate" one: Remember that Steelbook of Demons? I love that transfer. Think it looks gorgeous, every bit as stunning as the Anchor Bay DVD before it, and I only didn't throw the Arrow release in the garbage because I couldn't remember if it had any decent bonus features. Didn't regret a penny of my purchase, and I'm convinced it'll be the definitive version of the film for a long time to come.

A few months after the Synapse release came out I was able to see an American print of Demons at the New Beverly Cinema. I watched choice scenes of the Synapse BD the night before, curious if the print would be better in any way, and then was shocked and disappointed to find the actual 35mm print looked nothing like the Synapse release! Weak black levels, no color grading for day-for-night transitions, undersaturated naturalistic lighting... in short, aside from Arrow Video's horrendous compression, they got the actual theatrical "look" of Demons down almost perfectly. Boy, was that eye-opening.

So to everyone wanting a "faithful" presentation here - be careful what you wish for. Monkey paws, and all that.

The IB Print workflow for Suspiria as I understand it.

Eastman 5247 OCN > Eastman 5243 IP (Color Timed) > Eastman 5243 IN > Imbibition Matrices > Technicolor IB Print.

With the help of this post.

[SeanJoyce]

I'm sure it's buried somewhere in this thread, but there's a $2 difference in pricing at Snyapse vs. Diabolik (more expensive at the latter.)

If I remember correctly, Synapse charges $6 to ship in the US. Does anybody know what Diabolik charges?

Cheers.

[The Great Owl]

Hurricane Irma will probably not overtly interfere with my plans to drive down into Atlanta to see Suspiria at the Plaza at 5:00 p.m. on Saturday night, since the storm will not have reached Georgia yet, but I predict that my drive back up north after the screening is going to take quite a while, with the refugees all driving that route on I-75.

Not that this is a big deal or anything... Having my Suspiria night altered is not as bad as, say, dying in the storm or totally losing my home.

I'd like to think that, after I leave the theater, I'll be so amped up and happy about having seen this movie on the big screen that I won't mind if it takes me three hours to get home instead of just 30 minutes.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

The 2017 were people prefer colours of movies shot on film to look like digital HDR10 stuff.

I've been watching a ton of remastered 70's-80's horror blu-rays over the past few years, and many of them are very bright and colorful. They aren't de-saturated and dull like films these days. You've got it backwards. The current trend is to shoot dim, dark, grimy, teal-tinted, de-saturated films. People are so used to seeing teal, dull films these days, they don't realize that films used to have color in them.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Se.Vero

TLE looks accurate to me, others already pointed out that the colours don't look muted at all like in the screencaps provided by synapse.

Ugh, here we go again.

I have posted my own screenshot comparisons, as have others in here, that prove that the screenshots by Synapse are 100% accurate to the Italian disc. Why do people continue to spread misinformation about this?

[Classified Info]

I have the Italian disc and it's hard to see how anyone can describe the Synapse screencaps as "muted colors" in comparison.
The other way round I think

[Respectjuice]

Finally was able to pre-order this a few days ago. Super excited for this. Definitely one of my favorite Dario Argento films. Probably right behind Demons, which I love. And I guess I'm one of the few that actually likes the artwork too.

[JupiterMission]

Saw this in Kansas City tonight. It looks and sounds as wonderful as everybody has been saying. If you can get to it in a theater, get to it.