Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[master gandhi]

Originally Posted by randian

Interesting if the studios are honest. I can easily see the studios play the "slightly different name" game, where the UHD has a different name ("Anniversary Edition" or "Special Edition") than the HD so you don't actually get a free upgrade. "Sorry, different movies".

It happens, but not too often. It won't become the norm at least. Think of it like how they add iTunes Extras to existing movies. Sure, sometimes they create a new listing that now has features, but usually those features are just added to the pre-existing version.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by markazali

Parity is a big annoyance. For whatever reason VUDU doesn't always have the 1080p version of movies that are available elsewhere.

The Extras + feature on VUDU is a step back too since you can't watch on standalone players.

I've seen this quite a bit lately on movies I was trying to do D2D on that are 1080 elsewhere but not VUDU. Usually Amazon will have it HD or even Fandangonow (ie Timecrimes, House of Flying Dagger, The Cell, Drunken Master etc)

[randian]

Originally Posted by master gandhi

It happens, but not too often. It won't become the norm at least. Think of it like how they add iTunes Extras to existing movies. Sure, sometimes they create a new listing that now has features, but usually those features are just added to the pre-existing version.

I hope you're right, but there's much more financial incentive to play this game with UHD than there is with Extras.

[master gandhi]

Originally Posted by randian

I hope you're right, but there's much more financial incentive to play this game with UHD than there is with Extras.

I hope I'm right too. They bought a lot of good will with yesterday's announcement. They'd be forfeiting it if they started pulling crap like that. I have faith that they won't do that.

This just ensures that going forward, people will buy more new releases on Digital if it's logical pricing and great quality. Catalogue titles are starting to sell less and less these days. Most people already own all their favorites, and wouldn't re-purchase them in 4K left and right.

But they probably do see decent sales whenever they drop the prices on content. They're better off dropping prices in hopes that more people buy, than keep the prices high and make more money off fewer customers.

Also, whenever they add iTunes Extras, it gives them a reason to advertise that same movie. The same thing will happen with 4K. Maybe there's a few gaps in your collection, and now that you see those movies are 4K, you'll finally buy them. Some of the movies that were on sale for $4.99 this summer would've enticed me more if I knew they'd later be 4K. Now those same movies can sell for $7.99 or $9.99 and it'll still seem logical/reasonable, if they're advertised as 4K.

But compare that to the $29.99 asking price on VUDU in UHD for even older movies like The Princess Bride, and $9.99 in 4K sounds great. Although maybe Princess Bride is a bad example. MGM isn't listed as participating on iTunes in 4K.

[randian]

Originally Posted by master gandhi

I hope I'm right too. They bought a lot of good will with yesterday's announcement. They'd be forfeiting it if they started pulling crap like that. I have faith that they won't do that.

Apple bought a lot of good will, not the studios, whom few consumers care about. Any loss of good will cause by studio bad faith falls on Apple, not them, and makes people take a look at Ultraviolet, which both Sony and WB prefer you use instead, their signing this deal notwithstanding. When others take the hit there is little disincentive against bad behavior. I'll reserve judgment until we see some experience with the new regime.

[Greyman]

Originally Posted by randian

.....Ultraviolet, which both Sony and WB prefer you use instead, their signing this deal notwithstanding. ..

Don't think there is any truth to this at this point in time.

[dublinbluray108]

There is some news out in the media that movie studios like WB & Paramount being in talks with Apple & Comcast on releasing a paid VOD rental service for new released movies. The idea of this proposal is to release the movies for a period of 2 weeks after they are first shown in theaters. People could be asked to pay between $30 & $50 for each movie rental in this proposed new deal from Apple & Comcast. This deal would not require approval of the movie theaters in the US and possibly worldwide.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...fying-theaters

http://fortune.com/2017/08/18/warner...ovie-theaters/

From the outset, if this idea was sold on an international scale as a big hit through Apple, it does appear to be a good deal for a lot of people who like to see new movies in the theater. The entry price point for the cheapest movie available is still very high for both the frequent & casual movie goers.

IMO; I still think that it is up to the people to decide if they want to buy into this new proposed service. I still like & prefer seeing movies in the theater as I do like the event of the big screen with the new audio options for the new releases. I don't get the same experience from possibly watching a movie on a smaller screen than a PC or a laptop. It puts me off a great deal the whole great experience of watching the movie in the first place.

What do you guys think about this proposal? Do you think it is a good idea for yourselves?

[randian]

Originally Posted by dublinbluray108

What do you guys think about this proposal? Do you think it is a good idea for yourselves?

Since I always watch movies by myself, it's quite useless.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by dublinbluray108

There is some news out in the media that movie studios like WB & Paramount being in talks with Apple & Comcast on releasing a paid VOD rental service for new released movies. The idea of this proposal is to release the movies for a period of 2 weeks after they are first shown in theaters. People could be asked to pay between $30 & $50 for each movie rental in this proposed new deal from Apple & Comcast. This deal would not require approval of the movie theaters in the US and possibly worldwide.

IMO; I still think that it is up to the people to decide if they want to buy into this new proposed service. I still like & prefer seeing movies in the theater as I do like the event of the big screen with the new audio options for the new releases. I don't get the same experience from possibly watching a movie on a smaller screen than a PC or a laptop. It puts me off a great deal the whole great experience of watching the movie in the first place.

What do you guys think about this proposal? Do you think it is a good idea for yourselves?

Well I have been telling you guys this for a while, The Disc is Dead! If you don't think Streaming Video is King, you live under a Rock. My Generation the Baby Boomers don't go to the Theaters anymore, at least the people I talk to. I watch the Latest Movies as soon as I can, and all Streaming to my UHD Sony. I love the idea, but the price is still too high. Best Buy has cut their Movie Section and WalMart has increased theirs at my Stores but no one is shopping. I think with Original Content, and the availability of Movies there is just too much competition. I think it's just a matter of time where Streaming HD will take over.

[Link]

I haven't really been keeping up with anything 4K related, but i've been back and forth with my decision to go completely digital or continue to buy Blu Ray. After realizing that I would need a new Blu-Ray player and would have to start re-buying my movies (I knew i'd have to re-buy, but didn't know i'd need a new player) i'm sticking with iTunes - especially with this new announcement of the free upgrades. I know that a disc will probably always provide better quality, but i'm ok with digital HD as it is so I think i'm good at this point.

[zarquon]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well I have been telling you guys this for a while, The Disc is Dead! If you don't think Streaming Video is King, you live under a Rock. My Generation the Baby Boomers don't go to the Theaters anymore, at least the people I talk to. I watch the Latest Movies as soon as I can, and all Streaming to my UHD Sony. I love the idea, but the price is still too high. Best Buy has cut their Movie Section and WalMart has increased theirs at my Stores but no one is shopping. I think with Original Content, and the availability of Movies there is just too much competition. I think it's just a matter of time where Streaming HD will take over.

I know you like to jump in wherever you can to evangelize for the Church of Streaming Nirvana, and proclaim the Death of the Disc, but the post you quoted has nothing to do with streaming vs disc. At all. And for the record, I'm squarely in the middle of the baby boomer generation myself, and I still go to the movies quite frequently, it's far and away my preferred means of seeing a new movie for the first time.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Originally Posted by alchav21

My Generation the Baby Boomers don't go to the Theaters anymore, at least the people I talk to.

Please stop saying this. Baby Boomers, and the ones left from the preceding generation, are the only group propping up traditional cable tv and landline phone industries. They are most definitely helping keep movie theaters in business. You and the people you supposedly "talk to" are OUTLIERS of your group, not the norm.

It is Xennials (my generation) and Millennials that are driving the streaming revolution.

Originally Posted by alchav21

I think it's just a matter of time where Streaming HD will take over.

The US still has a whole bunch of rural areas that do not get the speed to stream HD, much less UHD. Are the studios going to stop making discs for them? Disc will continue to exist for the same reason(s) CD still does. Will there come a point where streaming is the primary way a majority of users consume movies? Absolutely, and we are getting closer to that point day by day.

However, it's important to remember, studios care about money. That's it. As long as disc makes money, studios will make them. If CD hasn't died yet, there is no reason to think BD/UHD-BD/Whatever else will go away anytime soon.

[jhrobinson]

Originally Posted by BlakkMajik3000

Please stop saying this. Baby Boomers, and the ones left from the preceding generation, are the only group propping up traditional cable tv and landline phone industries. They are most definitely helping keep movie theaters in business. You and the people you supposedly "talk to" are OUTLIERS of your group, not the norm.

It is Xennials (my generation) and Millennials that are driving the streaming revolution.


The US still has a whole bunch of rural areas that do not get the speed to stream HD, much less UHD. Are the studios going to stop making discs for them? Disc will continue to exist for the same reason(s) CD still does. Will there come a point where streaming is the primary way a majority of users consume movies? Absolutely, and we are getting closer to that point day by day.

However, it's important to remember, studios care about money. That's it. As long as disc makes money, studios will make them. If CD hasn't died yet, there is no reason to think BD/UHD-BD/Whatever else will go away anytime soon.

Plus, most Americans have NEVER bought content in a digital download format and physical formats greatly outsell digital. Don't believe the hype.

Also, younger people go to the theaters more than older people, especially adults with children.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by BlakkMajik3000

The US still has a whole bunch of rural areas that do not get the speed to stream HD, much less UHD. Are the studios going to stop making discs for them? Disc will continue to exist for the same reason(s) CD still does. Will there come a point where streaming is the primary way a majority of users consume movies? Absolutely, and we are getting closer to that point day by day.

However, it's important to remember, studios care about money. That's it. As long as disc makes money, studios will make them. If CD hasn't died yet, there is no reason to think BD/UHD-BD/Whatever else will go away anytime soon.

And Then don't forget about data caps. Like 99% of the country at this point probably has a data cap and a monopoly stopping them from finding a plan without a data cap. The data caps set relatively high but its not high enough for 4k useage by a family and data usage is on average going up not down meaning at some point somthing has to give (either the data cap or the digital media that drives people to hit the data cap).

[flyry]

Originally Posted by jhrobinson

Plus, most Americans have NEVER bought content in a digital download format and physical formats greatly outsell digital. Don't believe the hype.

Also, younger people go to the theaters more than older people, especially adults with children.

Define "younger' because the 90s-00s babies don't go to the movies

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by voltz

Does anyone think that the laws of ownership should be revised so that EULA agreements should explicitly state that you're purchasing the full right to your content and not just a licensing agreement that can be terminated at any time?

And along with that I would like to see enforcement on this, including the customer right to sue studios for barring anyone from their investment (i.e. Account Termination, etc) I know movie studios would be all and out in disfavor of even having this talk, but with the fact that they're hellbent on taking away the liberty of ownership, I fear we're going to need these safeguards in place to ensure they don't turn our media into something only they have control of.

We have to get our rights back!

I agree with this 110%. The same should go for music, video games, etc.

It's really the biggest sticking point for digital in the long run. Once you buy it, there should be some guarantee of ongoing ownership.

And before someone jumps in and makes the common counterpoint to this, yes, I know that we don't own the intellectual rights to the movie and so forth. No one is claiming that we do even with physical media. But we do own that copy. If you buy a BIC pen, you own that individual pen. It doesn't mean that you own the intellectual rights to the BIC brand name.



There should be laws protecting consumer rights in these instances. Even allowing people to legally use "unofficial means" to reacquire access to previously purchased content if it becomes unavailable from the original source despite having been paid for.


And if none of that changes, I think at the absolute minimum, legally these companies should be prohibited from using words like "buy" and "own" in the advertising of the digitally distributed versions of movies. Instead they should be forced to use terms like "lease" and "license." If that's how it is advertised, then it will likely give a lot of 'average joes' who don't think about these issues reason to question the meaning behind that wording, and really consider what they are paying for.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by master gandhi

So does the announcement of free HD to UHD upgrades on iTunes spice up the Digital/Physical debate? Instead of forcing us to double dip to get UHD, iTunes is treating UHD pretty much as the new HD. If that isn't a point scored for Digital, I don't know what is.

IMO it is simultaneously a point scored for digital while also raising another issue with digital that is often swept under the rug.



This isn't something that is happening across the board with all digital services. It is happening with iTunes specifically. And that's great for anyone like yourself who has bought most of their movies through iTunes. But it does nothing for anyone else who has purchased digital movies through other services (or redeemed codes from physical copies with other services).


Part of what complicates "digital" as a whole is the fact that it's not truly all one "format." Meaning that iTunes purchases and Vudu purchases are effectively different "formats" within the digital sales realm. And it's a difference more akin to Beta vs. VHS or Blu-ray vs HD-DVD. Except it isn't limited to just two competitors, there are several services out there. Some can be linked to others, but some can't, further adding to the confusion.

And then within each of those different services, there is the varying quality options of SD, HD, and UHD, similar to DVD/BD/4k-BD.

So in some respects, the current state of digital distribution is like the worst aspects of differing physical formats, only far more exaggerated.



It will also be interesting to see how this pans out long term, even for iTunes. Regardless of whether it's through physical or digital sales (or more accurately, leases for the latter), the studios likely want to try and push 4K as a selling point to get people to buy the same movies again. Apple upgrading them for free undercuts that goal. Unless Apple is paying a fee to the studios to allow those upgrades to happen, and is able to "eat" that cost as a result of the money that they are making already, I would think at some point the studios will step in and at least want some kind of upgrade fee.


That being said, at least for now, for those who have their movies through iTunes, it is a very nice perk, and a point scored in digital's favor, even if only via iTunes.

It doesn't really make me want to start buying movies digitally instead of on physical media for the myriad of reasons that I've stated in the past, but I can't deny that benefit in this specific regard, at least for now.

[master gandhi]

If Movies Anywhere comes about, it will make these negatives moot. Then even if Amazon and VUDU don't upgrade our movies to UHD for free and our movies port to iTunes, they'll suddenly be 4K. But Amazon and VUDU won't want people to just watch everything on iTunes, so they'll likely conform to the new model and give their customers 4K upgrades too, especially if Movies Anywhere doesn't happen.

[PCFan]

I'm been contemplating whether I should go back to blu-ray and switch to 4k discs, buy some of my favorites on blu-ray, stop buying digital but still use Netflix on my Apple TV, and buy 4k disc player. I will be buying a 4k TV soon. I have not been satisfied overall with the image and sound quality that I got from digital via iTunes or Vudu although some movies actually look decent through those services but it seems to be a hit and miss of what actually looks decent. Sure there are poor sources on some blu-rays as well but more times I was unsatisfied with the image quality of streaming than watching a blu-ray. Before I went digital earlier this year I was watching blu-rays for years so I guess that's why I get the feeling that the image quality is not quite there yet whenever I stream through iTunes and Vudu, though sometimes it's very close to looking like a blu-ray but most of the time it seems like it's not quite there yet. However, more and more people seem to be switching to digital, and the movie section at Best Buy are deserted almost every time I go there.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by PCFan

I'm been contemplating whether I should go back to blu-ray and switch to 4k discs, buy some of my favorites on blu-ray, stop buying digital but still use Netflix on my Apple TV, and buy 4k disc player. I will be buying a 4k TV soon. I have not been satisfied overall with the image and sound quality that I got from digital via iTunes or Vudu although some movies actually look decent through those services but it seems to be a hit and miss of what actually looks decent. Sure there are poor sources on some blu-rays as well but more times I was unsatisfied with the image quality of streaming than watching a blu-ray. Before I went digital earlier this year I was watching blu-rays for years so I guess that's why I get the feeling that the image quality is not quite there yet whenever I stream through iTunes and Vudu, though sometimes it's very close to looking like a blu-ray but most of the time it seems like it's not quite there yet. However, more and more people seem to be switching to digital, and the movie section at Best Buy are deserted almost every time I go there.

Like I said before, with a name like PCFan you should be on the UV side and have nothing to do with iTunes. I hope your UHD TV is going to be a Sony, and then you will be in great position for Digital HD. I have Vudu and Amazon, with Sony Ultra for UHD Streaming and I love this set up. Bandwidth and set up is a big consideration, and if you don't have this then you will be in a position to consider Disc. Like you said, Streaming Digital HD is The Future, but Fiber will be needed for the Gold Standard!