The Criterion Collection

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by PowellPressburger

I keep hoping for a US BLU release also. Warren Oates is one of the most underrated actors of that era.

True. My next criterion buy is going to be Two-lane Blacktop, a lot people from this forum enjoy this film and like Oates' performance. I can guess you are extremely happy about The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp being released in March.

Red Shoes and Black Narcissus blu rays are nothing short than spectacular.

[PowellPressburger]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

True. My next criterion buy is going to be Two-lane Blacktop, a lot people from this forum enjoy this film and like Oates' performance. I can guess you are extremely happy about The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp being released in March.

Red Shoes and Black Narcissus blu rays are nothing short than spectacular.

Yes excited for that release also. I own the UK Two Lane Blacktop and also just picked up the Criterion edition earlier this week.

[BetterTomorrow]

Got a question about Armageddon to toss out and hopefully someone will have an idea, I tried google and got nothing.

I just picked up a second copy of the Armageddon Criterion DVD (it was $4, why not?) and noticed the discs are different then my other, the discs are white instead of silver. any idea why, or which is newer/older? not a big deal, just curious is all...

[paul000]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

Jodorowsky said he had the financial backing for the production but no one wanted to distribute the final film so the production was stopped. Many of artists and production were used or inspired some the greatest sci fi films ever made. These films were mere shadows of what Jodorowsky's Dune film would have been. He did not want anything less than his vision of what Dune meant to him. I think he did not care how much profit he was going to make. Again honesty to his art (probably the hardest principle to have in the film industry)

I argue (with Pink Floyd making the score and many great artist working on the production: Dave O' Bannon, Moebius, Chris Foss, H.R. Giger; actors involved: Orson Wells, Mick Jagger, Salvador Dali to name a few) Jodorowsky's Dune could've easily been the greatest sci fi film ever made.

I would recommend you to look up some of these artist and what films they were involved.

I will have to not so graciously exit from this discussion. I know I pressed it, but I hoped for better. If you had addressed anything I'd said instead of telling me to look up artists I'm more than familiar with we could move forward. I still disagree with you entirely. In fact I think you're blatantly wrong considering the funds supporting Jodorowsky's Dune and the whole "honesty to your art" angle. ART. Look it up? Even if you feel that someone like Lynch wasn't honest to his art making Dune, who in the hell could say that about the rest of his career? In my opinion Jodorowsky's body of work pales in comparison, and I've experienced everything these guys have to offer outside of film as well. I've said everything I have to say I guess. Agree to disagree.

[paul000]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

It's on its way to my doorstep. 13 American dollars. Not too shabby.



I sold my DVD of the movie today, so here's looking forward to the improved replacement.

I just picked that up too. I've only seen it once and want to watch it again. I didn;t necessarily like it, but I still want to see it again. For the price it wasn't hard to decide on the blu ray. Editing this to ask what your take was on the film?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by rock, stone

Heh, you sure don't like this movie.

Yeah, to be honest I too am a little surprised at how vehement I'm being. And after like fifteen years, no less

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by rock, stone

One point though: you are the only one who is calling Starship Troopers subtle. I just said it was sly. The Colbert Report isn't subtle either, but uses some similar tactics to lampoon its targets. Namely, dressing up in their clothes and tropes then acting like a buffoon.

I misread what you were saying about the first 3/4 of the movie. I thought you were saying the commentary didn't get heavy-handed until the end.

It's funny you mention Colbert though because I definitely agree with your general point there. While writing my earlier posts I backspaced over the word 'cartoonish' several times because I kept picturing Monty Python and even The Simpsons. Commentary can be cartoonish and over-the-top and still be very biting and clever.

Colbert does more than dress up like a conservative and act like a buffoon. He doesn't simply set up two-dimension strawmen to skewer. His (for lack of a better word) attacks are far more thoughtful and pointed than that.

Originally Posted by rock, stone

You are really focused on hats today.

Hats are windows to the soul

Originally Posted by rock, stone

Are you honestly going to tell me that when you saw that cap in the theatre you shouted "space nazi!"? Fair play, if you did.

I can't take all the credit. George Lucas indelibly connected many of the dots twenty years earlier. Space Nazis were a genre trope long before Starship Troopers (Battlestar Galactica - yes, that Battlestar Galactica - even had them) and nazi imagary was never all that hard to spot. Black uniforms with silver emblems and black leather overcoats and the like are the moustache twirls of post-WWII filmmaking but they became all but impossible to miss once they were scored by John Williams.

It's been over ten years so I can't tell you exactly how I reacted to every image but I can say with absolute certainty that 'whoa, didn't see that coming' was not my reaction to NPH's full-tilt SS regalia.

Originally Posted by rock, stone

Here's the thing: this was intended to be a summer blockbuster. They got a studio to pay 100 million dollars for a movie where they directly associate American pro-military rhetoric with Riefenstahl and then celebrates the clearly fascist heroes. It is essentially saying to its target audience, "you guys are a**holes".

Even in the 90s, that is still pretty subversive, right?

Hmmm, that's kind of interesting. Sneering at the public is rarely out of vogue and was downright trendy in the 90s but films that take that tack don't usually sneer at their audiences as well but hmmmmmm...

This might be giving everybody involved too much credit but it's certainly food for thought. I'll keep it in mind if I ever get around to watching it again.

Anyway, thanks for the (ridiculously OT) discussion. It was pretty interesting.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by octagon

Yeah, to be honest I too am a little surprised at how vehement I'm being. And after like fifteen years, no less

My Criterion DVD of Robocop is the only Paul Verhoeven flick that I own, and I have to be in a specific mood to watch it. It's a fun bit of 1980s excess, but it's also in the minority of Verhoeven films, in my opinion.

In all honesty, I think that watching a Paul Verhoeven flick is like spending two hours sitting across a lunch table from a toddler who is constantly making gross "Do you like seafood? Now you see food!" jokes. At times, it's endearing and I genuinely find something to laugh at, but, for the most part, it's just disgusting.

The reverence for the original Total Recall film in the recent discussions on this forum about the remake got me thinking. The original Total Recall had a gleeful subversiveness to it, yes, but it was also gross and forgettable, like most of Verhoeven's movies. It was a rather dumb flick when I saw it in 1990, and it's a rather dumb flick now.

Verhoeven is subversive, but it's the wrong sort of subversiveness a lot of the time. I've never cared for the misanthropic "Most of my audiences are too dumb to understand this." vibe when I'm watching a film.

I "get" the Verhoeven movies, but I don't necessarily want to watch most of them more than once.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by paul000

Editing this to ask what your take was on the film?

Rocking out the spoiler tags to answer this Caché question...

[Show spoiler]For me, Caché has a rather ambiguous final scene that I never really "figured out", but that seemed beside the point. It was the best movie I've ever seen as far as critiquing our culture of cameras and surveillance. It's almost a voyeuristic thrill where the tables are suddenly turned on the viewer. I love how virtually every angle of the movie could be footage from a hidden camera. It's an icy, unsettling affair, but brilliantly done. One of the best Hitchcock films that Hitchcock never made.

At any rate, I'm glad that I'll be watching the final scene in high definition now, because it demands that sort of viewing.

[Hawkguy]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Rocking out the spoiler tags to answer this Caché question...

[Show spoiler]For me, Caché has a rather ambiguous final scene that I never really "figured out", but that seemed beside the point. It was the best movie I've ever seen as far as critiquing our culture of cameras and surveillance. It's almost a voyeuristic thrill where the tables are suddenly turned on the viewer. I love how virtually every angle of the movie could be footage from a hidden camera. It's an icy, unsettling affair, but brilliantly done. One of the best Hitchcock films that Hitchcock never made.

At any rate, I'm glad that I'll be watching the final scene in high definition now, because it demands that sort of viewing.

I can't believe I had no idea it has a UK release until it was mentioned here...I've got to get it at some point..

[oildude]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

My Criterion DVD of Robocop is the only Paul Verhoeven flick that I own, and I have to be in a specific mood to watch it. It's a fun bit of 1980s excess, but it's also in the minority of Verhoeven films, in my opinion.

In all honesty, I think that watching a Paul Verhoeven flick is like spending two hours sitting across a lunch table from a toddler who is constantly making gross "Do you like seafood? Now you see food!" jokes. At times, it's endearing and I genuinely find something to laugh at, but, for the most part, it's just disgusting.

The reverence for the original Total Recall film in the recent discussions on this forum about the remake got me thinking. The original Total Recall had a gleeful subversiveness to it, yes, but it was also gross and forgettable, like most of Verhoeven's movies. It was a rather dumb flick when I saw it in 1990, and it's a rather dumb flick now.

Verhoeven is subversive, but it's the wrong sort of subversiveness a lot of the time. I've never cared for the misanthropic "Most of my audiences are too dumb to understand this." vibe when I'm watching a film.

I "get" the Verhoeven movies, but I don't necessarily want to watch most of them more than once.

As much as I like Robocop, that isn't the Verhoeven film I want Criterion to release on blu-ray. The one I want is Soldier of Orange. It's a terrific and moving film set during the German occupation of the Netherlands in WWII, about a group of university-age friends hurled down unexpected paths by war, and not all on the same side. It is one of the few WWII films I have seen that acknowledges many young men from occupied countries were not opposed to the Germans. Some idealistically volunteered for the Waffen-SS, eager to join what they thought was a new, strong, and worthy European order, and to do their part to save Europe from Bolshevism.

But I like Verhoeven's satirical action films too. Nothing beats Arnie kickin' some butt on Mars. Yeah, TR is on the surface a big ol' action flick with lots of gore and guns blasting. But it isn't as dumb as you seem to suggest. More than a few mind-bending layers to consider there.

[Fellini912]

Originally Posted by paul000

I will have to not so graciously exit from this discussion. I know I pressed it, but I hoped for better. If you had addressed anything I'd said instead of telling me to look up artists I'm more than familiar with we could move forward. I still disagree with you entirely. In fact I think you're blatantly wrong considering the funds supporting Jodorowsky's Dune and the whole "honesty to your art" angle. ART. Look it up? Even if you feel that someone like Lynch wasn't honest to his art making Dune, who in the hell could say that about the rest of his career? In my opinion Jodorowsky's body of work pales in comparison, and I've experienced everything these guys have to offer outside of film as well. I've said everything I have to say I guess. Agree to disagree.

I also agree to disagree, but with a little research ( Wikipedia) ones opinion becomes a fact (in the case of Dune) this is what David Lynch said about his Dune:


I started selling out on Dune. Looking back, it's no one's fault but my own. I probably shouldn't have done that picture, but I saw tons and tons of possibilities for things I loved, and this was the structure to do them in. There was so much room to create a world. But I got strong indications from Raffaella and Dino De Laurentiis of what kind of film they expected, and I knew I didn't have final cut.[26]

This interview is from Star Wars Origins: Dune website. The websites reference Vertex Interviews Frank Herbert, October 1973, volume 1, issue 4 by Paul Turner

My final statement is that Jodorowsky films are some of the best in expressing surrealism. I really can not argue against a directors entire filmography being second rate. If a person ask me what films to watch that are surreal/bizarre, I would definitely recommend Bunuel and Jodorowsky before Lynch.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by oildude

As much as I like Robocop, that isn't the Verhoeven film I want Criterion to release on blu-ray. The one I want is Soldier of Orange. It's a terrific and moving film set during the German occupation of the Netherlands in WWII, about a group of young Dutch friends who are hurled down unexpected paths by war, and not all on the same side. It is one of the few WWII films I have seen that acknowledges many young men from occupied countries were not opposed to the Germans. Some idealistically volunteered for the Waffen-SS, eager to join what they thought was a new, strong, and worthy European order, and to do their part to save Europe from Bolshevism.

But I like Verhoeven's satirical action films too. Nothing beats Arnie kickin' some butt on Mars. Yeah, TR is on the surface a big ol' action flick with lots of gore and guns blasting. But it isn't as dumb as you seem to suggest. More than a few mind-bending layers to consider there.

I wouldn't mind watching some of the older Verhoeven flicks.

It just seems that, for every film of his that has held my interest (Robocop, Total Recall), though, there have been some offerings that greatly underwhelmed me (Basic Instinct, Hollow Man). Showgirls does not deserve all of the animosity that it inspires, but it's definitely not one of my favorites. Black Book had the potential to be a great film, but a couple of tasteless moments spoiled it for me.

[paul000]

Originally Posted by Fellini912

I also agree to disagree, but with a little research ( Wikipedia) ones opinion becomes a fact (in the case of Dune) this is what David Lynch said about his Dune:


I started selling out on Dune. Looking back, it's no one's fault but my own. I probably shouldn't have done that picture, but I saw tons and tons of possibilities for things I loved, and this was the structure to do them in. There was so much room to create a world. But I got strong indications from Raffaella and Dino De Laurentiis of what kind of film they expected, and I knew I didn't have final cut.[26]

This interview is from Star Wars Origins: Dune website. The websites reference Vertex Interviews Frank Herbert, October 1973, volume 1, issue 4 by Paul Turner

My final statement is that Jodorowsky films are some of the best in expressing surrealism. I really can not argue against a directors entire filmography being second rate. If a person ask me what films to watch that are surreal/bizarre, I would definitely recommend Bunuel and Jodorowsky before Lynch.

Opinion becomes fact? You take this surrealism stuff real far. Lynch's quote - which I have read, in fact mostly anything the man has said on Dune I either own in books or have read/seen - basically says what I said pages back about de Laurentiis that you ignored. He's not saying that when he took the project he knew and decided to SELL OUT. He's saying he was forced to eventually continue with these other peoples' interest more than his own, while their interest was MONEY. So he became someone who gave into the whims of the "suits". And repeating - I think IT DID HIM GOOD. And ART. Your next quote is nothing but opinion - just from another person. Don't see what you're getting at. I also addressed this earlier and once again it was ignored - Lynch is more about MOOD. Of course his stuff can get surreal, but I certainly don't think he thinks about surrealism while working. In fact I know this and I have literature from the man to prove it, but I am lazy and so is this discussion (hey, didnt I back outta this thing?) One of our prominent sci-fi writers prefers Jodorowsky's surrealism? Awesome. Kubrick prefers Lynch. Form your own ways. And don't make me go to my bookshelf!

[Whirlygig]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

there have been some offerings that greatly underwhelmed me (Basic Instinct, Hollow Man).

Whaaaa???!!!

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by Whirlygig

Whaaaa???!!!

I thought that Sharon Stone did a fine job, but Basic Instinct underwhelmed me in almost every other aspect.

[*PREACHER*]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

I thought that Sharon Stone did a fine job, but Basic Instinct underwhelmed me in almost every other aspect.

Basic Instinct not only underwhelmed me but made me very unconfortable...considering I went and saw it with my folks back when I was younger....quite the ackward/disturbing memory that will never fade me...and has messed me up as a human being in general...ever since!

[Whirlygig]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

I thought that Sharon Stone did a fine job, but Basic Instinct underwhelmed me in almost every other aspect.

Well...what about, at least, the music? I love the film, but more, I love the score.

//edit:
Wow, for some reason I never bothered to look up this movie's rating. Just checked IMDB and Metacritic, could not believe how low it was! I think the film just drips with style and I enjoy the ride every time, sounds like many critics at the latter were taking it too seriously and expecting things from it that it had no obligation or intention to deliver. And paired with that rich, classic, suspenseful Goldsmith scoring it always just added up to a package I always just assumed everyone must love.

...at least the review here by Dr. Atanasov seems to understand.

[paul000]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Rocking out the spoiler tags to answer this Caché question...

[Show spoiler]For me, Caché has a rather ambiguous final scene that I never really "figured out", but that seemed beside the point. It was the best movie I've ever seen as far as critiquing our culture of cameras and surveillance. It's almost a voyeuristic thrill where the tables are suddenly turned on the viewer. I love how virtually every angle of the movie could be footage from a hidden camera. It's an icy, unsettling affair, but brilliantly done. One of the best Hitchcock films that Hitchcock never made.

At any rate, I'm glad that I'll be watching the final scene in high definition now, because it demands that sort of viewing.

Very cool that you said that, because that is what was so intriguing to me and why I am going to return to it. Once it clicks, it's an immersive film. I also am excited to see this in HD for the first time. Thanks for those thoughts. I'll probably be back here once I've seen it again and have formulated more of my own.

[P@t_Mtl]

Just this to say about Dune, I don't hate the movie but Lynch and De Laurentiis almost turn the story into a caricature of the original story. They amplified every little details way too much (ex The Baron who become's laughable instead of the sort of machiavellic character he is in the book) The casting was also wrong for many of the characters, the actors they went with just did not fit. The visuals are beauiful and nice cinematography but it really does feel to much like a satire more then an adaptation of Herbert's book.

As for Basic Instinct remove the weird sex scenes and 20 years later no one would remember that joke of a movie

[paul000]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Just this to say about Dune, I don't hate the movie but Lynch and De Laurentiis almost turn the story into a caricature of the original story. They amplified every little details way too much (ex The Baron who become's laughable instead of the sort of machiavellic character he is in the book) The casting was also wrong for many of the characters, the actors they went with just did not fit. The visuals are beauiful and nice cinematography but it really does feel to much like a satire more then an adaptation of Herbert's book.

Agreed. The film does not work on any level. I would be interested to see the uncut/director cut pre reshoots and studio ****ery, but will never happen.