Power conditioner? Is it for me?

[westom]

Originally Posted by JimShaw

If something like that can destroy a computer, it sure could an expensive sound system. I feel safer with my APC.

So where does APC makes protection claims? Where does it list each type of surge and protection from that surge? It does not. How does that make you 'feel safer'?

Well, it does have some surge protection. It protects from a type of surge that typically does not cause damage. That is made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. So the sales brochure can claim 'surge protection' in capital letters. What did they forget to put in that brochure? "Near Zero surge protection".

No, they did not lie. View same in its numeric specifications.

We earth one 'whole house' protector so that direct lightning strikes do not even damage the protector. Telephone lines have always had a protector where their wire meets yours. But again, each protector is only as effective as the single point earth ground - which you provide.

Why do telcos install that protector for free? Because it costs so little money and because it is so effective. Amazing so many who never knew that protector exists. And never learned the only thing that makes every protector effective: single point earth ground.

Meanwhile, this is only about secondary protection. You should also inspect your primary surge protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
An overwhelming majority would not know of this existing protection. Unfortunately, many only know what is promoted in retail stores and by hearsay. Therefore would not remember what also makes Ben Franklin's lightning rods effective - earthing.

Posted are more examples of the concept. And what APC will not discuss to protect profit margins. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[MrRoy]

Originally Posted by ZIPPO

I'd give up my magic boxes if I had a new house built from the ground up. With all the electrical wiring done by the book(NEC), by an licensed electrician.

I live in a condo, I am not going to take any chances with my stuff. I can't just connect my stuff to an earthing wire (if I am understanding it correctly).

[westom]

Originally Posted by ZIPPO

I'd give up my magic boxes if I had a new house built from the ground up. With all the electrical wiring done by the book

Which does nothing to make protection any better. The soluton that was standard 100 years ago and that is defined here means only earthing. Must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. Safety grounds (wires inside the building) could even be knob and tube or 1950 two wire receptacles. Makes no different to one properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

No magic box provides surge protection. Does not even claim to provide that protection. View its numeric specs. Where does a protector claim surge protection - in numbers?

A protector is only a connecting device. Either the protector connects to protection. Or it is ineffective.

NIST (US government research agency) says same:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,
> where it can do no harm.

What would a magic box do? Suppress, block, or arrest a surge. What can it do? It has no short connection to earth. But is does have a massive profit margin to pay for a big propaganda program.

[westom]

Originally Posted by MrRoy

I live in a condo, I am not going to take any chances with my stuff. I can't just connect my stuff to an earthing wire (if I am understanding it correctly).

Nobody said anything about earthing equipment. If you did, then you have a code violation.

Surge protection is all about energy. Surges seek earth ground. Either you earth that energy harmlessly to earth BEFORE it enters a building. Or that energy hunts for earth destructively inside the building.

What does the effective protector do? Connects even direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Via the single point ground. Every incoming utility must connect to the same electrode before entering the building.

Telcos have been doing this for 100 years. To make thir protector even better, it is located as close to earth as possible (in an underground vault) AND up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Superior protection means a larger distance between protector and electronics.

You accomplish same with one ‘whole house’ protector from so many sources including the few cited in that other post.

A protector (not appliances) is only as effective as its earth ground.

[crazyBLUE]

Where is solarrdadd when you need him

[MrRoy]

Originally Posted by westom

Nobody said anything about earthing equipment. If you did, then you have a code violation.

Surge protection is all about energy. Surges seek earth ground. Either you earth that energy harmlessly to earth BEFORE it enters a building. Or that energy hunts for earth destructively inside the building.

What does the effective protector do? Connects even direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Via the single point ground. Every incoming utility must connect to the same electrode before entering the building.

Telcos have been doing this for 100 years. To make thir protector even better, it is located as close to earth as possible (in an underground vault) AND up to 50 meters distant from electronics. Superior protection means a larger distance between protector and electronics.

You accomplish same with one ‘whole house’ protector from so many sources including the few cited in that other post.

A protector (not appliances) is only as effective as its earth ground.

So what your saying is that if your house is properly protected with a 'whole house' protector, than any type of surge protection/power conditioning/filtering is unnecessary?

[gamebred]

Originally Posted by westom

What would a magic box do? Suppress, block, or arrest a surge. What can it do? It has no short connection to earth. But is does have a massive profit margin to pay for a big propaganda program.

Which again proves my point about having your entire house circuitry properly grounded. I have to agree with this guy here. He sure seems to know more about this topic than myself. My only experience was wiring a few outlets and adding some circuit breakers. Oh yeah, I did weld for a few years in a steelshop. I managed to survive quite a few electrical storms while throwing down some beads standing in a puddle of water from a leaky roof. Of course those machines were properly grounded. Good thing, we were only pushing out about 300 or more amps. It only takes less than an amp to technically kill a human being by electricity.

[MrRoy]

Is this the right place to ask if the extended warranty I purchased on my tv and receiver were worth it?

[ZIPPO]

Originally Posted by crazyblue

where is solarrdadd when you need him

rotflmmfao! (rolling on the floor laughing my ... ... ... off!)

[gamebred]

Originally Posted by MrRoy

Is this the right place to ask if the extended warranty I purchased on my tv and receiver were worth it?

It's no worse than when a newbie opens up a thread that's three years old and asks if those speakers are still for sale. lol

[MrRoy]

Originally Posted by ZIPPO

rotflmmfao!

Stutter? (kidding)

[gamebred]

...I think he meant mother eff

[MrRoy]

Originally Posted by gamebred

...I think he meant mother eff

Ahh...that one is new to me.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by ZIPPO

rotflmmfao!

Where you after this

[westom]

Originally Posted by MrRoy

So what your saying is that if your house is properly protected with a 'whole house' protector, than any type of surge protection/power conditioning/filtering is unnecessary?

Another reason why the 'whole house' protector is so important is demonstrated by scary pictures that most every fire department has seen:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/P...SSOR FIRES.doc
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/les...tectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

Plug-in protectors also need protection by one 'whole house' protectors.

Let's add numbers from an IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which
> will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is
> not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one
> stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

A properly earthed 'whole house' protector is not complete protection. Spend how much on plug-in protectors to have an additional 0.2% protection? Scary pictures are simply another reason why an earthed 'whole house' protector is so desirable.

Again, protection is about where energy dissipates (which is also why only some homes also require lightning rods).

[gamebred]

sooooooooooooo, where can we get one of these 'whole house' protector thingys? lol j/k

here's a link for anyone interested. short and sweet. (laymen terms) lol http://www.tech-faq.com/whole-house-...rotector.shtml

[westom]

Originally Posted by gamebred

sooooooooooooo, where can we get one of these 'whole house' protector thingys? lol j/k

here's a link for anyone interested. short and sweet. (laymen terms) lol http://www.tech-faq.com/whole-house-...rotector.shtml

Unfortunately, the layman's terms say these are too complex. Why are these devices sold in Home Depot, Lowes, etc? Because the protector is that simple - for those who buy electrical stuff and install it.

Some electricians do not understand how to install these devices - do not understand that a ground wire up over the foundation and down to an earth ground rod is too long. Too many sharp bends, etc. That the ground wire must go through the foundation and down to earth. Homeowners are advised to confirm their electrician understands how to reroute that ground wire - because the protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Electricians only understand human safety - the code. Protection is about transistor safety - exceeds code requirements.

As previously posted here and here:

Responsible companies include Intermatic, Leviton, Siemens, Square D, Keison, and General Electric. The Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes for less than $50.

Most any electrical supply house provides them. Home Depot also sells the Cutler Hammer version. Internet has numerous sources (don't know how many links remain valid):
http://www.smarthome.com/4870/Interm...G1240RC/p.aspx
http://www.smarthome.com/4860/Levito...51120-1/p.aspx
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...?a=b&item=6931
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...?a=b&item=6930
http://www.polyphaser.com
http://www.dale-electric.com/ditek.htm
http://www.deltala.com/prod01.htm
http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm
http://www.lightningrodparts.com/surge.html
http://www.erico.com/products.asp?folderid=50
http://www.sea.siemens.com/errors/404-1.htm
http://www.surgepack.com/transtrack-lp.htm

A technology understood for over 100 years. How many are only hearing this for the first time? Concepts even taught in second grade science.

Many are only educated by retail store salesmen and popular hearsay. Do not realize how much information arrives without the always required supporting facts and numbers - is based only in hearsay and myth. Notice how many believed what they were told. Did not use facts and numbers to ask damning questions.

'Whole house' protectors are based in the same simple concepts of Ben Franklin's lightning rod. Lightning rods and 'whole house' protectors do same. Connect energy harmlessly to earth. It is that simple. But so new that many have difficulty learning it.

[MrRoy]

@ westom,

Is your purpose to posting about this in threads about surge protection/power conditioning/filtering to educate us on a solution that works, to show us that the solution that we are looking for will not be provided in the hardware we are asking about..?

I am asking a real question, no sarcasm involved.

[ZIPPO]

I found some info on the subject for those interested. Most recommended a two pronged approach.

"Typically, whole-house suppressors are hard-wired to the service panel, a process that takes a licensed electrician about two hours. Whole-house systems should be rated to stop a 40,000-amp surge, at minimum. Features to look for include thermal fuses, and lights or alarms that indicate when a device has taken a hit. Protection for an average house with 200-amp service will run about $500 — including a couple of hours of an electrician's labor. Separate but smaller whole-house units are recommended for the phone and cable lines. These protect fax and answering machines, televisions, and modems.

By themselves, whole-house suppressors can't stop surges completely; up to 15 percent of excess voltage may leak by. That's where "plug-in" surge protectors come in. These buffers between individual appliances and wall outlets come in a bewildering array of options and prices."

http://www.getstrike.com/hiw/video.html
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/arti...387874,00.html
http://household-tips.thefuntimesgui..._protector.php

[westom]

Originally Posted by MrRoy

Is your purpose to posting about this in threads about surge protection/power conditioning/filtering to educate us on a solution that works, to show us that the solution that we are looking for will not be provided in the hardware we are asking about..?

How to identify the ineffective protector:
1) It has no dedicated wire for that short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground.
2) Manufacturer will not discuss the always required and essential earthing.
3) Minimally sized protector is about 50,000 amp. Sufficient to conduct a direct lightning strike (and other transients) harmlessly to earth without damage even to the protector.

For those interested, Polyphaser's application notes are highly regarded at:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx

For those building a home, some simple concepts are demonstrated at:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm

Ham radio operators are often a good source for much of this. QST magazine (voice of the ARRL) had two summary articles about these principles - the second was in July 2002 entitled "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station" maybe still at:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/0207048.pdf

http://www.lightningsafety.com is a good source. For example,
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_...er_safety.html
> 3. Bonding
> Without proper bonding, all other elements of the LPs are useless. ...
> 4. Grounding
> Low-resistance grounding provides an efficient destination for the
> "lightning beast." ...

Or from lightningsafety is "Guidelines For Providing Surge Protection at Commercial, Institutional, and Industrial Facilities":
> Grounding Is Fundamental
> A surge protection device (SPD), also known as a transient voltage surge suppressor
> (TVSS), is designed to divert high-current surges to ground and bypass your equipment,
> thereby limiting the voltage that is impressed on the equipment. For this reason,
> it is critical that your facility have a good, low-resistance grounding system,
> with a single ground reference point ...

How to fix a defectively earthed house from Duke Energy:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp

Lightning to radio stations or a dishwasher is similar. To lightning, that radio tower or utility wire is still a destructive path to earth. Surge protection principles used in nuclear hardened communication facilities are similar to those used in munitions dumps and residences. Whereas those other protection systems are massively larger, homeowners accomplish similar with ground rods or buried loops.

Magic box protector that will somehow stop what three miles of sky could not; that will absorb hundreds of thousands of joules (often with names such as Belkin, APC, Tripplite, Panamax, and Monster Cable) are profit centers; not effective protection. Do not even claim protection in their numeric tech specs. And yet these ineffective devices are recommended by an overwhelming majority.