Blu-ray Movies with 7.1 Audio?

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by seigneur_rayden

You are the one who does not understand that they DONT just MATRIXED the 2 side surrounds to get the surrounds back like an AVR does. On the contrary, they REMIX the track to make the 7.1

Toy Story 3 was not recorded in 7.1 either. They record movies in Mono/stereo. Toy Story 3 was mixed in 7.1 in post-production processing.

Go to Dolby.com and they will explain the 7.1 we have and the 7.1 they have that we don't. It doesn't matter what toy story3 was mixed in, because what was heard in the theaters is different then what will hear at home. The technology [dolby 7.1] is new and different. Our receivers are not going to process it the same, because we don't have this technology yet! It doesn't matter what pop studios said , we don't have it!

[Sammy]

Dolby and dts are two different technologies.

I don't think that there is a Dolby 7.1 track on any BD but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I am wrong!! There are Dolby TrueHD 7.1 tracks.

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

Go to Dolby.com and they will explain the 7.1 we have and the 7.1 they have that we don't. It doesn't matter what toy story3 was mixed in, because what was heard in the theaters is different then what will hear at home. The technology [dolby 7.1] is new and different. Our receivers are not going to process it the same, because we don't have this technology yet! It doesn't matter what pop studios said , we don't have it!

TS3 was mixed and delivered to theaters in 7.1 discrete audio, and that very same mix is available on the Blu-ray disc via 7.1 DTS HDMA. Current 7.1-capable AVRs are fully capable of playing them. The theatrical world is merely catching up with home 7.1 which is almost a decade old now. Could you explain what you mean by "we don't have this technology?"

All that is new about TS3, is that this is the first time a movie studio mixed a 7.1 (3/4/1) mix for theatrical release. But it's not fundamentally any different than the many 7.1 BDs we've had before.

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by seigneur_rayden

You are the one who does not understand that they DONT just MATRIXED the 2 side surrounds to get the surrounds back like an AVR does. On the contrary, they REMIX the track to make the 7.1

This is correct.

Toy Story 3 was not recorded in 7.1 either. They record movies in Mono/stereo. Toy Story 3 was mixed in 7.1 in post-production processing.

This is an unnecessary splitting of hairs. Of course TS3 was recorded as 7.1, otherwise there would be no master to deliver. They mixed it, and recorded that mix. And yes it is also true that movie soundtracks are a confluence of hundreds of elements, be they mono, stereo or 5.1, as they flow into the mixing console.

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

I am done arguing with you. If you don't want to accept the facts then so be it. Also, Toy Story 3 was not made in stereo or mono, it was actually made in 7.1. You can validate everything I have said regarding 7.1 mixes on several sites and I am not about to waste my time copy and pasting them all here. I hope you're comfortable being wrong because I am now done with you.

You are thus both correct that TS3 is a bona fide 7.1 mix.

And no, New Line and Disney do not make other 7.1 BDs by simply upmixing them. I have not found anyone doing that, but there are nere do wells in every walk of life. Maybe some such nefarious discs have surfaced.

[Dead Rippers Society]

TS3 was recorded in 7.1...proof is in the pudding.

[stevo4264]

Oh my..... I wandered into this thread after a couple of beers...my head is still buzzing of 5.1 and 7.1
I am now going to wander off........

[deado]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

No sir. You are wrong. The only true 7.1 mix on BD right now is Toy Story 3. All other 7.1 titles on BD are 5.1 mixes that have been matrixed to 7.1.

Actually no YOU are wrong.... read this:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news...ogenakker/5476

[HD Goofnut]

You guys apparently just don't get it. I am done trying to talk sense into you.

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

TS3 was mixed and delivered to theaters in 7.1 discrete audio, and that very same mix is available on the Blu-ray disc via 7.1 DTS HDMA. Current 7.1-capable AVRs are fully capable of playing them. The theatrical world is merely catching up with home 7.1 which is almost a decade old now. Could you explain what you mean by "we don't have this technology?"

All that is new about TS3, is that this is the first time a movie studio mixed a 7.1 (3/4/1) mix for theatrical release. But it's not fundamentally any different than the many 7.1 BDs we've had before.

Go Dolby. com and read it for yourself, and you tell me. Sure sounds like something new to me.

[JediFonger]

lulz, now now boys... >P

first of all, soundtracks used in the cinema don't get copy&pasted into DVDs or Blu-Rays. it goes through yet another mixing process since HT don't usually have 20-50 speaker arrays @home.

second of all, having discrete 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1 or even 22.1 won't matter if the source is terrible or the artists/sound engineers just don't want to utilize *all* the channels effectively.

so i think so much of your discussions and semantics are a lot of guessworks unless the bonus feature/or someone has gone on record as saying "we have mixed for 7.1" directly. unless *you* were the sound engineer/director/artist involved in the film production that mixed and created the surround sound the reality is we dunno. while you might see the proper LEDs light up in your AVR x.x the reality is they might want the surround field to *be* that way.

look at older films and you'll see why, like the 1970s era films that have poor audio. it's basically MONO. even though you see the 7.1 LEDs light up, doesn't mean the artists have taken the original sound elements from teh source and original tapes and created a brand new mix. there have been yes, but all too often, they just dump what works and quickly put up something you can hear.

for the most part things are optimized for 5.1 because there still arne't a lot of 6.1 and 7.1 installs in general commercial or residential cinemas. that's why there are so few 7.1 discs in general.

also discrete vs. matrixed. the artists behind the mix of the surround soundtracks can actually do *BOTH*. in another words, they can create a 5.1 track that they *know* home users can matrix into 6.1 or 7.1 and have it work effectively how they wanted it. reminds me of DDEX, which is a 5.1 track where you can matrix a 6th rear center from it.

likewise you can also see a 7.1 lit up that is essentially still a 5.1 track.

as has been pointed out before, it really is upto the director/sound mixers/engineers involved as to what purpose it is and we just dunno it unless they go on record in the bonus/feature, which is very rare.

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

Go Dolby. com and read it for yourself, and you tell me. Sure sounds like something new to me.

Well, I worked at Dolby for 25 years, and introduced the 7.1 concept there, PLIIx, and TrueHD 7.1 (I even created the TrueHD name). I think I undertand this stuff pretty well. I'm happy to help with any questions or confusion you may have.

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by JediFonger

first of all, soundtracks used in the cinema don't get copy&pasted into DVDs or Blu-Rays. it goes through yet another mixing process since HT don't usually have 20-50 speaker arrays @home.

No. May I remind you of your other statement:

for the most part things are optimized for 5.1 because there still arne't a lot of 6.1 and 7.1 installs in general commercial or residential cinemas. that's why there are so few 7.1 discs in general.

That's why the number of speaker is irrelevant. It's the number of channels, and theaters have 5.1 just like homes. There is no new mix made for the home. Yes, there is a remastering step, but that is subtle tweaking of EQ and dynamics, not a remix.

also discrete vs. matrixed. the artists behind the mix of the surround soundtracks can actually do *BOTH*. in another words, they can create a 5.1 track that they *know* home users can matrix into 6.1 or 7.1 and have it work effectively how they wanted it.

They could, but they don't. They have no means to audition how it will play with a 7.1 upmixer, and actually they don't care.

reminds me of DDEX, which is a 5.1 track where you can matrix a 6th rear center from it.

In this case they mix through the EX encode-decode process so they hear the final result.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Well, I worked at Dolby for 25 years, and introduced the 7.1 concept there, PLIIx, and TrueHD 7.1 (I even created the TrueHD name). I think I undertand this stuff pretty well. I'm happy to help with any questions or confusion you may have.

This may be true, but on another note, why are there ugly red blocks stinking out of the walls of your home theater room?

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

Well, I worked at Dolby for 25 years, and introduced the 7.1 concept there, PLIIx, and TrueHD 7.1 (I even created the TrueHD name). I think I undertand this stuff pretty well. I'm happy to help with any questions or confusion you may have.

Ok now were getting somewhere. Why didn't say you worked for Dolby in the first place? I got 2 questions, if your willing to answer. 1.Why are we seeing less and less of dolby truehd soundtracks on bd's lately? 2. please explain what dolbys 7.1 surround is for theaters? A lot of us on different forums like dolby true hd over dtsma because of the dial norm. If you noticed lately the dialog gets lost in Dtsma sound tracks . Which means to hear it you have to jack up the center channel.But studios that use to have dd true hd are now going to dtsma.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

Ok now were getting somewhere. Why didn't say you worked for Dolby in the first place? I got 2 questions, if your willing to answer. 1.Why are we seeing less and less of dolby truehd soundtracks on bd's lately? 2. please explain what dolbys 7.1 surround is for theaters? A lot of us on different forums like dolby true hd over dtsma because of the dial norm. If you noticed lately the dialog gets lost in Dtsma sound tracks . Which means to hear it you have to jack up the center channel.

That's my main beef with DTS-HD MA as well. Dialogue is just a little lower, especially on BDs that have a lot going on in the fronts, surrounds, and LFE.

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by tvine2000

Ok now were getting somewhere. Why didn't say you worked for Dolby in the first place? I got 2 questions, if your willing to answer. 1.Why are we seeing less and less of dolby truehd soundtracks on bd's lately?

As an ex employee, this is not official--just my perspective. Do you remember the survey at this forum? While that was not the only reason, it played a role. Then there's basic economics--it costs less to QC a DTS track due to the lossy core being embedded into the lossless track as opposed to being a separate entity as is the case with Dolby.

2. please explain what dolbys 7.1 surround is for theaters?

Not too sure how to explain other than to say that since theaters use standard PCM audio, the real issue in playing 7.1 in theaters has to do with retrofitting the speakers/amps and the cinema processor to be able to rearrange the surround speakers into the 7.1 configuration and be able to switch them back to standard 5.1 or 6.1 EX, all the while keeping them all calibrated properly. Dolby's cinema processors were apparently the first to get all that covered. The 7.1 configuration is the same as we use at home, L/C/R, Ls/Rs, Lb/Rb, sub.

A lot of us on different forums like dolby true hd over dtsma because of the dial norm. If you noticed lately the dialog gets lost in Dtsma sound tracks . Which means to hear it you have to jack up the center channel.But studios that use to have dd true hd are now going to dtsma.

Dialnorm has no affect on the relationship of dialog relative to the rest of the mix. It is a global, fixed gain offset that remains static for the entire program, affecting every channel to the same degree. If the dialog in a movie is weak thru HDMA, it will be identically weak thru TrueHD.

If TrueHD has any advantage over HDMA, it is that it has DRC code embedded, so you can elect to hold down the dynamics when desired--and that may help with dialog levels as you can raise the volume a wee bit safely. It's a nicer DRC mode than in DD, but the same concept. Oh, and TrueHD will never attempt to "remap" any of the surround channels.

[srrndhound]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

This may be true, but on another note, why are there ugly red blocks stinking out of the walls of your home theater room?

They don't stink anymore now that the paint has dried.

[trentv85050]

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

As an ex employee, this is not official--just my perspective. Do you remember the survey at this forum? While that was not the only reason, it played a role. Then there's basic economics--it costs less to QC a DTS track due to the lossy core being embedded into the lossless track as opposed to being a separate entity as is the case with Dolby.

Not too sure how to explain other than to say that since theaters use standard PCM audio, the real issue in playing 7.1 in theaters has to do with retrofitting the speakers/amps and the cinema processor to be able to rearrange the surround speakers into the 7.1 configuration and be able to switch them back to standard 5.1 or 6.1 EX, all the while keeping them all calibrated properly. Dolby's cinema processors were apparently the first to get all that covered. The 7.1 configuration is the same as we use at home, L/C/R, Ls/Rs, Lb/Rb, sub.

Dialnorm has no affect on the relationship of dialog relative to the rest of the mix. It is a global, fixed gain offset that remains static for the entire program, affecting every channel to the same degree. If the dialog in a movie is weak thru HDMA, it will be identically weak thru TrueHD.

If TrueHD has any advantage over HDMA, it is that it has DRC code embedded, so you can elect to hold down the dynamics when desired--and that may help with dialog levels as you can raise the volume a wee bit safely. It's a nicer DRC mode than in DD, but the same concept. Oh, and TrueHD will never attempt to "remap" any of the surround channels.

Yes i remember i survey, it was a heated one, much like grain vs no grain. i know money will be in your next answer somewhere , but why don't they just put dd true hd and dtsma on the same bd disc.? I thought Dolby woundn't let that happened, i mean letting all studio go Dtsma. I thought they would put up a stink about it. Anyway i still think Dts is louder overall then a dd true hd track and i guess people associte louder is better, and thats the reason Dts won this war. I'm sure it doesn't hurt Dolby in the least. I'm just a big Dolby fan

[tvine2000]

Originally Posted by srrndhound

As an ex employee, this is not official--just my perspective. Do you remember the survey at this forum? While that was not the only reason, it played a role. Then there's basic economics--it costs less to QC a DTS track due to the lossy core being embedded into the lossless track as opposed to being a separate entity as is the case with Dolby.

Not too sure how to explain other than to say that since theaters use standard PCM audio, the real issue in playing 7.1 in theaters has to do with retrofitting the speakers/amps and the cinema processor to be able to rearrange the surround speakers into the 7.1 configuration and be able to switch them back to standard 5.1 or 6.1 EX, all the while keeping them all calibrated properly. Dolby's cinema processors were apparently the first to get all that covered. The 7.1 configuration is the same as we use at home, L/C/R, Ls/Rs, Lb/Rb, sub.

Dialnorm has no affect on the relationship of dialog relative to the rest of the mix. It is a global, fixed gain offset that remains static for the entire program, affecting every channel to the same degree. If the dialog in a movie is weak thru HDMA, it will be identically weak thru TrueHD.

If TrueHD has any advantage over HDMA, it is that it has DRC code embedded, so you can elect to hold down the dynamics when desired--and that may help with dialog levels as you can raise the volume a wee bit safely. It's a nicer DRC mode than in DD, but the same concept. Oh, and TrueHD will never attempt to "remap" any of the surround channels.

So are you saying DTS remapps surround tracks? If so thats interesting. Btw my 7.1 system is set the same way to. I didn't realize what a theater has to do to go from 7.1 back to 5.1 or 6.1.