Schindler's List (1993) (20th Anniversary Limited Edition)

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

For what it's worth the story revolves around a Nazi industrialist who saves his workers from certain death and becomes the hero of the film. The movie is not about death and destruction but about the survivors of a group of people.

No, Schindler was not a nazi.

[Show spoiler]He was an opportunist who manipulated and used both his Nazi handlers and his Jewish workers to create a business opportunity for himself. He was first and foremost a businessman who didn't really care about anyone but himself. The film makes him out to be a hero to those he saved, but it raises all kinds of complex moral questions. One can argue that he was a hero because of the people he saved; but one can also argue that if more people like Schindler stood up to the nazis, there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

[FT-86]

Dont mean to argue, but he was part of the Nazi party, which made him Nazi. But the rest your said was true.

[Show spoiler]Thats why he wore the pin and had to flee at the end.

[TylerDurden]

Originally Posted by FT-86

Dont mean to argue, but he was part of the Nazi party, which made him Nazi. But the rest your said was true.

[Show spoiler]Thats why he wore the pin and had to flee at the end.

Yep not every nazi party member wore jackboots and leather trenchcoats. Werner Von Braun being the most prolific example as he worked directly with the SS on the V2 rocket but always wore a 3 piece suit.

[ry35an]

Originally Posted by Gremal

No, Schindler was not a nazi.

[Show spoiler]He was an opportunist who manipulated and used both his Nazi handlers and his Jewish workers to create a business opportunity for himself. He was first and foremost a businessman who didn't really care about anyone but himself. The film makes him out to be a hero to those he saved, but it raises all kinds of complex moral questions. One can argue that he was a hero because of the people he saved; but one can also argue that if more people like Schindler stood up to the nazis, there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

I may be wrong. But, I never got the impression that he "stood up" to the Nazis.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie but I remember him being VERY cautious around them.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

Yep not every nazi party member wore jackboots and leather trenchcoats. Werner Von Braun being the most prolific example as he worked directly with the SS on the V2 rocket but always wore a 3 piece suit.

It's not about what they wore; Schindler didn't join because he believed in naziism. He was doing business with them.

Originally Posted by ry35an

I may be wrong. But, I never got the impression that he "stood up" to the Nazis.

It's been a while since I've seen the movie but I remember him being VERY cautious around them.

That's what I'm saying. He never did stand up to them, except kind of after the fact, by saving his workers. One can argue he should have--all Germans should have.

[TylerDurden]

Originally Posted by Gremal

It's not about what they wore; Schindler didn't join because he believed in naziism. He was doing business with them.



That's what I'm saying. He never did stand up to them, except kind of after the fact, by saving his workers. One can argue he should have--all Germans should have.

And you can argue that all enemies of the state would have been liquidated. This was not an era were freedom of expression was allowed. Many Germans also died under Hitler.

[ry35an]

Yeah, well..hindsight and all.
It would've been great but Germany had lost its identity as a country.
That nut bag gave the people something to believe in again. (suffice to say; it was the wrong thing)

[TylerDurden]

Originally Posted by ry35an

Yeah, well..hindsight and all.
It would've been great but Germany had lost its identity as a country.
That nut bag gave the people something to believe in again. (suffice to say; it was the wrong thing)

The Nazis did not exist out of a vacuum. Eugenics practices had been well established at the turn of the century mainly in the USA and Sweden. Nazi Germany just took the next logical step and implemented the doctrine as state policy. Also without the depression you have no Hitler election.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

And you can argue that all enemies of the state would have been liquidated. This was not an era were freedom of expression was allowed. Many Germans also died under Hitler.

I think that's part of Spielberg's point in making this film. Only someone self-serving and indifferent like Schindler could have done what he did. But that's why I say it's a complex character development and there is moral relativism to explore.

[Narcissus]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

And you can argue that all enemies of the state would have been liquidated. This was not an era were freedom of expression was allowed. Many Germans also died under Hitler.

in the first 100 days of Hitler's chancellorship it's estimated he killed over 1000 Germans that were on his sh*t list.
you didn't stand up to the Nazi's if you were German or A Jewish German, Or An Invaded civilian, and if you did you weren't standing for very long.
S.O.P.A. isn't Sh*t compared to the Repression of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy Or Stalin's Russia.

Please, Please Watch:
"The World At War" in particular "Episode 20 : Genocide". Schindler Did More Than Most, and the World was in complete denial about what was going on.

"Where One Burns Books, There, Eventually, One Burns People"
Heinrich Heine

[ry35an]

Originally Posted by Gremal

I think that's part of Spielberg's point in making this film. Only someone self-serving and indifferent like Schindler could have done what he did. But that's why I say it's a complex character development and there is moral relativism to explore.

I wouldn't say he was indifferent either.

He was first and foremost a business man. Once he became aware of the atrocities he made the choice to help.

I would say he was reluctant.

[Gremal]

Well, we're starting to get into spoilers.

[Show spoiler]At the beginning, Schindler was absolutely indifferent. He didn't give a crap about his laborers or have any aspiration of saving Jews. He just wanted cheap labor and thanks to the nazis and the desparation they created, he had an easy way to generate capital and recruit skilled, intelligent workers who he barely even had to pay. The fact that he ended up saving them was pure happenstance. What changed him in the film was more about how much money his workers made for him and how dedicated and passionate they were. None of us will know whether he changed in real life because we weren't there. Schindler's Jews obviously remember him in the best possible light because they know they'd be dead if not for him. But was he a good man? This is a legit question.

Originally Posted by Narcissus

in the first 100 days of Hitler's chancellorship it's estimated he killed over 1000 Germans that were on his sh*t list.
you didn't stand up to the Nazi's if you were German or A Jewish German, Or An Invaded civilian, and if you did you weren't standing for very long.
S.O.P.A. isn't Sh*t compared to the Repression of Hitler's Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy Or Stalin's Russia.

Please, Please Watch:
"The World At War" in particular "Episode 20 : Genocide". Schindler Did More Than Most, and the World was in complete denial about what was going on.

"Where One Burns Books, There, Eventually, One Burns People"
Heinrich Heine

This brings up the morality of dealing with naziism. Germans and Europeans in general were far too tolerant of it. Resistance movements did stand up to the nazis with varying degrees of success.

[Narcissus]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Well, we're starting to get into spoilers.

[Show spoiler]At the beginning, Schindler was absolutely indifferent. He didn't give a crap about his laborers or have any aspiration of saving Jews. He just wanted cheap labor and thanks to the nazis and the desparation they created, he had an easy way to generate capital and recruit skilled, intelligent workers who he barely even had to pay. The fact that he ended up saving them was pure happenstance. What changed him in the film was more about how much money his workers made for him and how dedicated and passionate they were. None of us will know whether he changed in real life because we weren't there. Schindler's Jews obviously remember him in the best possible light because they know they'd be dead if not for him. But was he a good man? This is a legit question.

This brings up the morality of dealing with naziism. Germans and Europeans in general were far too tolerant of it. Resistance movements did stand up to the nazis with varying degrees of success.

totally agree.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by CheapChildren

There's no reason this wont fit onto a single 50gb disc. Fanny and Alexander by Criterion is 5 hours long and fits very nicely on one disc..

Not if there are a lot of extras.

[OldPangYau]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Not if there are a lot of extras.

That's what another disc would be for

[Bunker]

Originally Posted by Narcissus

Please, Please Watch:
"The World At War" in particular "Episode 20 : Genocide". Schindler Did More Than Most, and the World was in complete denial about what was going on.

I wouldn't say the world was in denial at all. The Allies knew about the camps by 1942, but did nothing because they didn't feel it was worth resources that could be better used elsewhere in the war effort. Also remember there was A LOT of Anti-Semitism at the time in Europe. Pogroms against Jews had been going on for centuries, especially in eastern Europe. The only reason the Nazis get blamed for the Holocaust was because it was official government policy to slaughter Jews. The populations of the occupied countries deserve to be blamed as much as the Nazis, imo. They stood by and let it happen.

[TylerDurden]

Originally Posted by Bunker

I wouldn't say the world was in denial at all. The Allies knew about the camps by 1942, but did nothing because they didn't feel it was worth resources that could be better used elsewhere in the war effort. Also remember there was A LOT of Anti-Semitism at the time in Europe. Pogroms against Jews had been going on for centuries, especially in eastern Europe. The only reason the Nazis get blamed for the Holocaust was because it was official government policy to slaughter Jews. The populations of the occupied countries deserve to be blamed as much as the Nazis, imo. They stood by and let it happen.

You would be hard pressed to place the blame on countries that were invaded and occupied by German forces. Sure Vichy France could have done something but they were just a puppet of the Third Reich. Also it's not like the slaughter was happening everywhere. Only about 6 death camps existed where the Jews were exterminated and most of those were in Eastern Europe where the Nazis had already annihilated the populace. If you remember most of the collaborators had their heads shaved in public during VE day.

[yojoeski]

Sum it up this way: Oskar Schindler was an ordinary person with tons of faults who did something wonderful with a brief moment in his life and he should be commemorated and remembered for his actions. This is not to say the man should be considered a saint and should be looked at in the same vein as a Mother Teresa but merely as a man with faults who did something extraordinary. End of story.

[Narcissus]

Originally Posted by Bunker

The only reason the Nazis get blamed for the Holocaust was because it was official government policy to slaughter Jews. The populations of the occupied countries deserve to be blamed as much as the Nazis, imo. They stood by and let it happen.

Just Wow.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Not if there are a lot of extras.

We haven't heard about any newly produced extras. The original disc had
"Voices From The List" documentary (80mins)
"The Shoah Foundation Story (with Steven Spielberg)" featurette (11mins)

That's not much.