Betty Boop on Blu - Vol 3 April 29, 2014 Pre-order

[Leviathan]

Mostly notably, while the UM&M logo has replaced the Paramount mountain logo on the films, a number of them have their original copyright notices. Glass half full on that front.

[whiteberry]

Can't wait for this release. These Fleischer shorts are amazing.

Originally Posted by Lyris

In these cases, my view is always this:

Age-related damage? Somewhat inevitable; it would be nice, but not essential for it to be addressed.

Modern day ignorance or mangling down to human error (badly done DVNR, etc): not as excusable.

Well said!

[ramapith]

Originally Posted by Hypnosifl

[Olive is] mostly going to be doing Betty Boop cartoons that are still under copyright, not the ones in the public domain [...] I do hope that at some point they do a volume with some of the more memorable cartoons that are in the public domain, especially the surreal musical ones with Cab Calloway, like Snow White and Minnie the Moocher
and The Old Man of the Mountain

The three Cab Calloway Betty shorts are actually still copyrighted, and are indeed included in Olive's announced 49-cartoon package. Where did you hear they weren't?
Over the years, quite a lot of supposedly "public domain" Betty Boop tapes and DVDs have clumsily included some copyrighted shorts, leading to fan confusion as to exactly which Bettys are in the public domain.

I've carefully crosschecked the entire Betty oeuvre with a copyright renewal catalog. The PD Bettys consist of
A) the 42 titles on the Echo Bridge DVD set
B) the following six additional titles:

BUZZY BOOP
BUZZY BOOP AT THE CONCERT
HONEST LOVE AND TRUE
ON WITH THE NEW
PUDGY AND THE LOST KITTEN
WHOOPS, I'M A COWBOY

All other Betty Boop cartoons, and/or other Fleischer cartoons with Betty appearances, are still under copyright. This includes 30+ Betty Screen Songs and Talkartoons that are not in the package acquired by Olive.

[Blu-Velvet]

Originally Posted by Tom Stathes

I’m not saying reviews should be dishonest or gloss over these issues, but I have to wonder how many people, who don’t and never will understand all the issues of dealing with very old archival material, might be ironically mislead by the honesty in the review at hand. Again, I’m not exactly trying to criticize the review, but as a historian and archivist with a large library of early films that need to be out in public view again but have a garden variety of picture quality issues where in many cases better prints do not exist or are too costly/problematic to obtain, I have to wonder how these contemporary reviews might negatively affect certain portions of home video audiences who might otherwise forgive some quality problems inherent to early films as they exist today.

Maybe it’s not the reviews that are the issue, but the newer HD quality-obsessed viewers who demand to know these details up front. I absolutely love HD too, but lines and splices and other issues come with the terrority, and sometimes there will never be a financial return on all the time and effort spent to correct all of those problems for a release, especially if it’s not one of the humongous studios putting out a release. Some food for thought.

Either way, thank you JMK for bringing attention to these issues, doing the research and being open to our input here. I think it’s good to have a discussion like this going. I’m not connected to this release in any way but the ensuing discussion is of great interest and related to my work in the field.

As Tom notes, the wording of reviews needs to be honest while not alienating potential viewers who simply do not comprehend issues involved with older film materials (particularly older than the 1980s when low-fade film stocks started to become more prevalent and older than the early 1950s when nitrate was still the studio standard and widescreen was a special-venue experiment). Being used to watching film prints, I barely notice minor scratches or brief sporadic nitrate decomposition around the edges of the frame because I understand what causes them, but severe and continuous problems are definitely worth pointing out. It's the film-like crisp sharpness and contrast ranges that count the most on a Blu-ray transfer, but it's good to know about preprint wear and/or decomposition, and whether a scan is from the nitrate negative, finegrain positive, dupe negative, original release print, preservation print, or dupe print. And as "Bigshot" notes, Jere Guldin is extremely knowledgeable and a really nice guy to talk to, and the same goes for Bob Gitt of UCLA (in person, at any rate -- I've never emailed them).

I would love for Olive to have tracked down or replicated the original Paramount logos and titles, but am still greatly anticipating adding their Betty Boop discs to my Blu-ray collection. Reviews of other films would also benefit from a bit more technical research. For example THE GRASS IS GREENER, also from Olive, gets a 3.5 video rating, whereas I might rate it a somewhat disappointed 4.0, since it looks as if it's from an Eastmancolor 35mm print, rather than a Technicolor 3-strip separation print or from the Technirama negative, which is horizontal 35mm with double the picture area. (The film itself I'd also rate a full point or point-and-a-half higher, but that's just me.)

[BrianS]

Originally Posted by ramapith

I've carefully crosschecked the entire Betty oeuvre with a copyright renewal catalog. The PD Bettys consist of
A) the 42 titles on the Echo Bridge DVD set
B) the following six additional titles:

BUZZY BOOP
BUZZY BOOP AT THE CONCERT
HONEST LOVE AND TRUE
ON WITH THE NEW
PUDGY AND THE LOST KITTEN
WHOOPS, I'M A COWBOY

All other Betty Boop cartoons, and/or other Fleischer cartoons with Betty appearances, are still under copyright. This includes 30+ Betty Screen Songs and Talkartoons that are not in the package acquired by Olive.

Why not? Can we convince Olive to release these?

[bigshot]

Here is a list of the PD Betty Boop cartoons. You'll notice that a PD title (Rise to Fame) is included in the announced sets.

BUZZY BOOP
BUZZY BOOP AT THE CONCERT
HONEST LOVE AND TRUE
ON WITH THE NEW
PUDGY AND THE LOST KITTEN
WHOOPS, I'M A COWBOY

BE HUMAN (1936) - Grampy
BETTY BOOP & GRAMPY (1935) - Grampy
BETTY BOOP & LITLE JIMMY (1936)
BETTY BOOP & THE LITTLE KING (1936)
BETTY BOOP'S RISE TO FAME (1934)
BETTY BOOP IN BLUNDERLAND (1934)
HAPPY YOU & MERRY ME (1936) - Pudgy
HOUSE CLEANING BLUES (1937) - Grampy
THE IMPRACTICAL JOKER (1937) - Grampy
MUSICAL MOUNTAINEERS (1939)
NOT NOW (1936) - Pudgy
STOP THAT NOISE (1935)
SWAT THE FLY (1935) - Pudgy
BABY BE GOOD (1935) - Pudgy
BETTY BOOP & HENRY, THE FUNNIEST LIVING AMERICAN (1935)
BETTY BOOP'S CRAZY INVENTIONS (1933)
CANDID CANDIDATE (1937) - Grampy
DING DONG DOGGIE (1937) - Pudgy
HOT AIR SALESMAN (1937) - Wiffle Piffle
IS MY PALM READ? (1933)
JUDGE FOR A DAY (1935)
A LANGUAGE ALL MY OWN (1935)
A LITTLE SOAP & WATER (1935) - Pudgy
RHYTHM ON THE RESERVATION (1939)
TRAINING PIGEONS (1936) - Pudgy
WE DID IT (1936) - Pudgy
BETTY BOOP'S KER-CHOO (1933)
GRAMPY'S INDOOR OUTING (1936) - Grampy
LITTLE NOBODY (1935) - Pudgy
MAKING FRIENDS (1936) - Pudgy
MAKING STARS (1935)
MORE PEP (1936) - Pudgy
MY FRIEND THE MONKEY (1939)
NO! NO! A THOUSAND TIMES NO! (1935)
POOR CINDERELLA (1934)
PUDGY PICKS A FIGHT (1937) - Pudgy
PUDGY TAKES A BOW-WOW (1937) - Pudgy
THE SCARED CROWS (1939)
SO DOES AN AUTOMOBILE (1939)
A SONG A DAY (1936) - Grampy
TAKING THE BLAME (1935) - Pudgy
YOU'RE NOT BUILT THAT WAY (1936) - Pudgy

[bigshot]

Also, Chess Nuts is a Talkartoon and it is on volume 1, so Olive does have access to the Talkartoons.

[Hypnosifl]

Originally Posted by ramapith

The three Cab Calloway Betty shorts are actually still copyrighted, and are indeed included in Olive's announced 49-cartoon package. Where did you hear they weren't?
Over the years, quite a lot of supposedly "public domain" Betty Boop tapes and DVDs have clumsily included some copyrighted shorts, leading to fan confusion as to exactly which Bettys are in the public domain.

Thanks for the information--as you say, I falsely assumed they were public domain as they appeared on a cheap set from "Platinum Disc Corporation".

[bigshot]

The PD titles are listed right above you there Hypno

(Although I still think that Betty Boop's Museum and Betty Boop MD are PD as well, because those were shown on the old Matinee at the Bijou show along with Betty Boop's Ker Choo, Housecleaning Blues and Is My Palm Red?)

[Hypnosifl]

Originally Posted by bigshot

The PD titles are listed right above you there Hypno

Yes, I saw the list and wasn't doubting it, just explaining why I had earlier gotten the idea that the Cab Calloway ones were public domain.

[ramapith]

Originally Posted by BrianS

Why not?

Originally Posted by bigshot

Also, Chess Nuts is a Talkartoon and it is on volume 1, so Olive does have access to the Talkartoons.

If Olive's 49-cartoon package—published in various forums a few months ago—is accurate, then it appears that their 49 titles were selected based on two rules:

A) Still under copyright (46 cartoons); or if not, then reused in the 1995 anthology film "Betty Boop Confidential" (2 cartoons: BETTY BOOP'S RISE TO FAME, POOR CINDERELLA) or seemingly picked up in a copyright search by error (1 cartoon: Betty's STOP THAT NOISE is a public domain short, but a Universal 2-reeler called STOP THAT NOISE was renewed).

B) Part of the Betty Boop self-titled series (42 cartoons); or if not, then including Betty's name in the title (2 Talkartoons: BETTY BOOP LIMITED, BOOP-OOP-A-DOOP) or reused in "Betty Boop Confidential" (1 Color Classic: POOR CINDERELLA; 4 more Talkartoons: BIMBO'S INITIATION, CHESS-NUTS, DIZZY DISHES, MINNIE THE MOOCHER).

Rule B explains how, while Olive did have access to the Talkartoons, they didn't choose to license many of them.

Originally Posted by bigshot

(Although I still think that Betty Boop's Museum and Betty Boop MD are PD as well, because those were shown on the old Matinee at the Bijou show along with Betty Boop's Ker Choo, Housecleaning Blues and Is My Palm Red?)

BETTY BOOP'S MUSEUM was renewed 28 Dec 1959, © renewal code R248101.
BETTY BOOP, M. D. was renewed 10 Nov 1959, © renewal code R246310.

Matinee at the Bijou evidently made some mistakes.

[Leviathan]

This is the Olive list in question (Chronological order and dates mine. PD = public domain. Titles in red are on Vol. 1 and titles in yellow are on Vol. 2)

Dizzy Dishes - 1930 (Talkartoon)
Bimbos Initiation - 1931 (Talkartoon)
Boop Oop A Doop - 1932 (Talkartoon)
Minnie The Moocher - 1932 (Talkartoon)
Chess Nuts - 1932 (Talkartoon)
Betty Boop Limited - 1932 (Talkartoon)
Stopping The Show - 1932
Betty Boop's Bizzy Bee - 1932
Betty Boop MD - 1932
Betty Boop's Bamboo Isle - 1932
Betty Boop's Ups And Downs - 1932
Betty Boop For President - 1932
I'll Be Glad When You're Dead, You Rascal You - 1932
Betty Boop's Museum - 1932
Betty Boop's Penthouse - 1933
Snow White - 1933
Betty Boop's Birthday Party - 1933
Betty Boop's May Party - 1933
Betty Boops Big Boss - 1933
Mother Goose Land - 1933
The Old Man Of The Mountain - 1933
I Heard - 1933
Morning, Noon And Night - 1933
Betty Boop's Halloween Party - 1933
Parade Of The Wooden Soldiers - 1933
She Wronged Him Right - 1934
Red Hot Mama - 1934
Ha Ha Ha - 1934
Betty Boop's Rise To Fame - 1934 (PD)
Betty Boop's Trial - 1934
Betty Boop's Life Guard - 1934
Poor Cinderella - 1934 (Color Classic) (PD)
There's Something About a Soldier - 1934
Betty Boop's Little Pal - 1934
Betty Boop's Prize Show - 1934
Keep In Style - 1934
When My Ship Comes In - 1934
Stop That Noise - 1935 (PD)
Service With A Smile - 1937
New Deal Show - 1937
The Foxy Hunter - 1937
Zula Hula - 1937
Riding The Rails - 1938
Be Up To Date - 1938
Out Of The Inkwell - 1938
Swing School - 1938
Pudgy The Watchman - 1938
Sally Swing - 1938
Pudgy In Thrills And Chills - 1938

MisterLime/Scott Peck, Olive's de-facto insider, claims that this is the list of copyrighted films Olive got directly from Paramount.

[BrianS]

Originally Posted by ramapith

If Olive's 49-cartoon package—published in various forums a few months ago—is accurate, then it appears that their 49 titles were selected based on two rules:

A) Still under copyright (46 cartoons); or if not, then reused in the 1995 anthology film "Betty Boop Confidential" (2 cartoons: BETTY BOOP'S RISE TO FAME, POOR CINDERELLA) or seemingly picked up in a copyright search by error (1 cartoon: Betty's STOP THAT NOISE is a public domain short, but a Universal 2-reeler called STOP THAT NOISE was renewed).

B) Part of the Betty Boop self-titled series (42 cartoons); or if not, then including Betty's name in the title (2 Talkartoons: BETTY BOOP LIMITED, BOOP-OOP-A-DOOP) or reused in "Betty Boop Confidential" (1 Color Classic: POOR CINDERELLA; 4 more Talkartoons: BIMBO'S INITIATION, CHESS-NUTS, DIZZY DISHES, MINNIE THE MOOCHER).

Rule B explains how, while Olive did have access to the Talkartoons, they didn't choose to license many of them.
BETTY BOOP'S MUSEUM was renewed 28 Dec 1959, © renewal code R248101.
BETTY BOOP, M. D. was renewed 10 Nov 1959, © renewal code R246310.

Matinee at the Bijou evidently made some mistakes.

So, Olive is incompetent? Sounds like pretty stupid rules.

I want it all.

[Leviathan]

Olive seems to be at best ignorant, at worst patronizing and hostile, towards experts of these films outside their employ. Hence, Frank Tarzi dismissing Robert Harris over High Noon's hanging grain, or Bob Furmanek's knowledge about film AR's falling on deaf ears.

[poopdeckpappykillme]

why are they releasing only one disc of 12 cartoons at a time? especially only a month apart??? $24.99 a pop? what, is this columbia house again? Would have made sense to put them together as a 2-pack at the same price. or maybe just one blu-ray disc with all 24 cartoons, I heard they can hold alot of information.

[poopdeckpappykillme]

also – don't get why they're being packaged like this, out of order.so they're saving the jazz ones for later...what vol. 3 or 4 in another couple months? 49 cartoons is not a lot to space out in this day and age. olive films is strict film nerd territory.general public sales is going to be slim at best,even if it was "All Pudgy, All-the-time". agree about the aspect ratio too, should've done better,but like Bob Furmanek says over at home theater,they just don't care about that issue on any release.

[uther]

Originally Posted by poopdeckpappykillme

also – don't get why they're being packaged like this, out of order.so they're saving the jazz ones for later...what vol. 3 or 4 in another couple months? 49 cartoons is not a lot to space out in this day and age. olive films is strict film nerd territory.general public sales is going to be slim at best,even if it was "All Pudgy, All-the-time". agree about the aspect ratio too, should've done better,but like Bob Furmanek says over at home theater,they just don't care about that issue on any release.

Wished it was never released eh? Get some perspective.

[poopdeckpappykillme]

Originally Posted by uther

Wished it was never released eh? Get some perspective.

spare me. Never said that, never will. I preordered it the second it was available. LOVE the fleischer cartoons. I bought all the VHS and lasers at full-price. I paid $20 for the one republic VHS tape in fact, brand new, and that was for like, what 9 cartoons? But that was three decades ago. a swell upgrade this blu-ray will be, but it's yet another example of novice programming and marketing.

Only Disney seemed to have gotten it right with the Disney Treasures line... seeing what they're doing with the features makes me wary of a blu-ray of the shorts from them though!

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by bigshot

Here is both frames merged to show what the actual aspect ratio of the film is...



The Fleischers used every bit of the frame. In BB in Snow White, there is action happening on both the top and bottom of the frame. There will be cropping if it isn't pillar boxed.

That combined image looks to be 1.2:1, which is the 1927 sound standard. So even though many of these are from the 1930s, I suppose it's possible that Fleisher's camera used the 1927 aperture and they never bothered to change it (unless later cartoons do indeed have a different A.R.)

I was going to say that I didn't understand how the BD release studios screw this up. Seems to me that you take the height and make that 1080. Then the width is whatever it is, in this case about 1296. But one reason for them not to have done that is if they legitimately thought that it was supposed to be presented at 1.33 or 1.37:1. Films were frequently shot with background area that wasn't intended for projection. Sometimes, prints were hard matted, mostly not (especially before 1952).

Even after 1952, they frequently weren't hard matted so that theatres could show the film at any A.R. they chose. I remember when I was kid and went to the local theater one time in the early 1960s, the projectionist forgot to put the aperture plate in the projector and the image spilled all over the top, bottom and side curtains and onto the floor. He noticed and slit the plate in, but I remember thinking, "why am I now missing all of that image?" It was probably 1.33 background area projected (once the plate was in) at 1.85.