UG! Since when did H.D.-D.V.D. start using BLUE lasers?

[tron3]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

As I understand it....originally, HD DVD was going to be red laser at 720p. Once they heard about Blu-ray and it's specs, they switched over.

Ahh, I knew I read something about it being 720p. DO you recall what/where it was you read? Geeze, if they only get 15gb with a blue laser, what would they get with a red laser? I mean, a DVD DL is only about 8.5 GB. They didn't even double the space and have Hi Def video which is 6 times denser than SD TV.

Toshiba shows their true colors all the time. It's neither red nor blue - it is green!

[Anthony P]

Correct. Which is WHY they wanted them manufactured on existing lines -- no kindness really involved.

just wanted to clear it up (I thought that someone that did not know better could misinterpret it). I am not sure on some of the stuff you posted (did not remember Pany and Sony bringing BD to the forum, I think it was just to get it started on HD disks) and no mention of the BFA (it almost looks as a two company want when there where 6) and to be fair on Toshiba's side they did work on Blue laser (and even .1mm) before the reorders or the BF. But none of those change things much and it was a great post.


so I hope you did not missinterpret my comment, let's face it in the end Toshiba gets the royalties, the replicators can upgrade much more easily (but even that was only known later with memmory tech's test) but they need to at minimum to modify those lines.

[frenchglen]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

Here's a little history lesson for those who care. There's a lot of mis-information out there about both formats and how this format war came about. This is the real story... as best as I can tell. If there are errors, hopefully an insider can correct me.

Back in 2003, Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) released BD-RE 1.0 recorders and discs in Japan. Those discs stored a little over 23 GB per layer and used discs that were encased in cartridges. They (primarily Sony) had been working on Blue-violet laser technology for quite awhile, initially using the technology for the UDO (Ultra Density Optical) magneto-optical discs first announced back in 2000.

Toshiba was, at the same time, working with Warner Brothers and some other partners on an HD version of existing DVDs. The idea was to use existing DVD discs, but storing 720p video using a more advanced codec (AVC or VC-1). This would have a few advantages over any competing solution. For one, drive mechanisms and disc pressing would not need to be changed for the new system. For Toshiba this also meant that all of the royalties they were making on the DVD spec would continue rolling in.

Sony and Matsushita submitted their new format to the DVD Forum, but Toshiba and a few other partners blocked the proposal, mainly because Toshiba wanted the discs to be able to be produced on existing lines... which the Sony/Matsushita discs certainly could not.

Toshiba and their partners then went and took the Blue-violet laser technology and merged it with existing DVD structure. This new spec, called AOD (advanced optical disc) is the disc structure that is now used in HD DVDs. The discs weren't as advanced as the competing BD-RE discs but they could be produced on some existing DVD lines... albeit, only after modifications. The discs place the data in approximately the center layer of the disc (the same location as existing DVDs), which made the discs easier to produce, but kept the capacity considerably lower than the BD-RE discs, which placed the data very near the bottom of the disc.

TDK developed a special coating that they found could be applied to the BD-RE media, protecting the discs without the need for the cartridges that had been used. The existing BD-RE spec was redubbed PDD (professional data disc) and continues to be used in various professional applications such as Sony's XDCAM camcorders. The PDDs cost more than the newer cartrdge-less BD-RE media, but they are designed for faster reading and writing... which is important when you are recording a master.

So, now there were two competing formats... both using blue-violet lasers, and both designed to play at 1080p. Toshiba continued to insist that the new discs be able to be manufactured on existing lines, and Sony and Matsushita refused, as they considered their new disc structure superior, both in terms of data storage and in terms of recordability. Toshiba had trouble convincing other CE companies to back their format, but they gained a huge ally in Microsoft, when the BDA decided to use Java for interactivity instead of Microsoft's competing HDi system.

Toshiba, with their new ally, proposed their format as the official next generation version of the DVD format. At first, it too failed to gain acceptance within the DVD Forum. But Toshiba and their allies got the rules of the forum changed and got a few new pro-HD DVD companies on board as voting members. With the new stacked deck, they were able to get their format approved.

Some work was done behind the scenes to attempt to prevent a format war, but on the issue of disc structure no one was willing to budge. As the initial version of BD-RE came out way back in 2003, it seemed likely that Blu-ray would launch first, and thus gain a foothold in the marketplace. But Microsoft's assistance allowed Toshiba to get HD DVD players developed in record time, though the first models were essentially full-fledged PCs with HD DVD drives.

Problems getting disc lines up and running, as well as delays and shortages on blue laser diodes kept Blu-ray from launching on time. When it eventually did launch, firmware problems on the first player released, as well as less than stellar transfers of early BD titles allowed HD DVD to gain a following and essentially offered it a 9 month head start.

That all changed in November, 2006, however, when the long-delayed PS3 finally hit shelves. Over night, hundreds of thousands of Blu-ray players were suddenly in people's homes. Within a few weeks of that release, many more Blu-ray players hit stores, and the format started to decimate HD DVD in the movie sales numbers.

All that was a year ago... and honestly not much has changed since then. A few companies have changed allegiances, but overall Blu-ray movies still outsell HD DVD movies every week by approximately 2:1. Hopefully, something big will happen soon to end this war, but for now, that's where we are and how we got here.

Thanks for that. Was refreshing to read about it from its early history. Nice to read the truth sometimes!

[radagast]

Originally Posted by AlexKx

Help me! I've been discuing the whole Blu-Ray/H.D.-D.V.D. fiasco format war with someone and I made the claim that H.D.-D.V.D. will not be able to hold as much storage space because it uses a RED laser. I have since been told it uses a BLUE laser and when I look at the unreliable website of Wikipedia it says that H.D.-D.V.D. uses a blue laser. What the hell? I thought the whole point of Blu-Ray being able to store more on it is because it uses a BLUE laser while no other format does?! Am I off my rocker and on the floor again?!

If hd-dvd used red lasers, then it wouldn't be able to hold 15gb per layer. The physical structure of hd-dvd is similar enough to red-laser DVDs that there is little difference in production costs. That may be where you are confused.

VMD uses red lasers.

[kaliraver]

I guess HD-DVD is truly Blue Ray

[Kirsty_Mc]

Originally Posted by kaliraver69

I guess HD-DVD is truly Blue Ray

BD Lite if you please .

[Anthony P]

I think it was meant as a pun (as in laser=ray so blue ray is an other way of saying blue laser )

[Kirsty_Mc]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think it was meant as a pun (as in laser=ray so blue ray is an other way of saying blue laser )

I did get that it was a pun , that's why I counter punned ( I even included a smiley ).

[kaliraver]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think it was meant as a pun (as in laser=ray so blue ray is an other way of saying blue laser )

Correct.

[Anthony P]

did get that it was a pun , that's why I counter punned

but calling it BD ruins the joke, if you said blue ray lite, then that would have been different

[Kirsty_Mc]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but calling it BD ruins the joke, if you said blue ray lite, then that would have been different

No... they would have thought it was one of those LED torches .

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

just wanted to clear it up (I thought that someone that did not know better could misinterpret it). I am not sure on some of the stuff you posted (did not remember Pany and Sony bringing BD to the forum, I think it was just to get it started on HD disks) and no mention of the BFA (it almost looks as a two company want when there where 6) and to be fair on Toshiba's side they did work on Blue laser (and even .1mm) before the reorders or the BF. But none of those change things much and it was a great post.


so I hope you did not missinterpret my comment, let's face it in the end Toshiba gets the royalties, the replicators can upgrade much more easily (but even that was only known later with memmory tech's test) but they need to at minimum to modify those lines.

No problems. I had been out drinking before I wrote that and I'm sure some clarification is necessary. Yes, it very much all came down to royalties... but the royalties come from the disc structure and the pressing systems that manufacture said discs. By BFA did you mean BDA? And, I didn't even realize I'd neglected to mention the BDA. Part of that is that I don't know the exact timeline of when what happened. The BDA was formed in early 2002 and announced the BD-RE 1.0 spec in early 2003, with 9 founding member companies. Sony and Panasonic were definitely the major players early on, however, so I focused more on them.

Also, upon reflection, I shouldn't have stated that the format was officially brought to the DVD forum. I've heard from a fairly reliable source that it was, but was shot down, because Toshiba and Warner were promising everyone the world at that time with their new format. But I cannot say definitively that that's the case. They may never have reached an official vote, knowing that Toshiba had other plans and they would have failed. IT was certainly discussed within the forum, and would likely have been shot down by Toshiba and their allies.

Anyway, definitely correct anything else you catch that is either incorrect or misleading in my post. I was thinking of putting together a much longer, all-inclusive history of the formats... seeing as how much misinformation is out there, as well as how many new Blu-ray members we will be getting over the fourth quarter this year. I think it would be very beneficial to get the actual story out there, so that those who choose to read facts instead of FUD can actually have a clue what's going on.

Originally Posted by frenchglen

Thanks for that. Was refreshing to read about it from its early history. Nice to read the truth sometimes!

It's nice to write it, too. Thanks for the comment. There's a lot more information I (and others) could share. I am thinking of trying to put together a more thorough history for those who really care -- if only to neutralize Amir's threat of writing a book about the format war (which would certainly be 2 true sentences sandwiched within 300 pages of FUD).

[SlapnutsGT]

I've physically opened the LG dual player and both the Blu ray and HD DVDs are read by the same laser ... a blue one

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

Here's a little history lesson for those who care. There's a lot of mis-information out there about both formats and how this format war came about. This is the real story... as best as I can tell. If there are errors, hopefully an insider can correct me.

Back in 2003, Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) released BD-RE 1.0 recorders and discs in Japan. Those discs stored a little over 23 GB per layer and used discs that were encased in cartridges. They (primarily Sony) had been working on Blue-violet laser technology for quite awhile, initially using the technology for the UDO (Ultra Density Optical) magneto-optical discs first announced back in 2000.

Toshiba was, at the same time, working with Warner Brothers and some other partners on an HD version of existing DVDs. The idea was to use existing DVD discs, but storing 720p video using a more advanced codec (AVC or VC-1). This would have a few advantages over any competing solution. For one, drive mechanisms and disc pressing would not need to be changed for the new system. For Toshiba this also meant that all of the royalties they were making on the DVD spec would continue rolling in.

Sony and Matsushita submitted their new format to the DVD Forum, but Toshiba and a few other partners blocked the proposal, mainly because Toshiba wanted the discs to be able to be produced on existing lines... which the Sony/Matsushita discs certainly could not.

Toshiba and their partners then went and took the Blue-violet laser technology and merged it with existing DVD structure. This new spec, called AOD (advanced optical disc) is the disc structure that is now used in HD DVDs. The discs weren't as advanced as the competing BD-RE discs but they could be produced on some existing DVD lines... albeit, only after modifications. The discs place the data in approximately the center layer of the disc (the same location as existing DVDs), which made the discs easier to produce, but kept the capacity considerably lower than the BD-RE discs, which placed the data very near the bottom of the disc.

TDK developed a special coating that they found could be applied to the BD-RE media, protecting the discs without the need for the cartridges that had been used. The existing BD-RE spec was redubbed PDD (professional data disc) and continues to be used in various professional applications such as Sony's XDCAM camcorders. The PDDs cost more than the newer cartrdge-less BD-RE media, but they are designed for faster reading and writing... which is important when you are recording a master.

So, now there were two competing formats... both using blue-violet lasers, and both designed to play at 1080p. Toshiba continued to insist that the new discs be able to be manufactured on existing lines, and Sony and Matsushita refused, as they considered their new disc structure superior, both in terms of data storage and in terms of recordability. Toshiba had trouble convincing other CE companies to back their format, but they gained a huge ally in Microsoft, when the BDA decided to use Java for interactivity instead of Microsoft's competing HDi system.

Toshiba, with their new ally, proposed their format as the official next generation version of the DVD format. At first, it too failed to gain acceptance within the DVD Forum. But Toshiba and their allies got the rules of the forum changed and got a few new pro-HD DVD companies on board as voting members. With the new stacked deck, they were able to get their format approved.

Some work was done behind the scenes to attempt to prevent a format war, but on the issue of disc structure no one was willing to budge. As the initial version of BD-RE came out way back in 2003, it seemed likely that Blu-ray would launch first, and thus gain a foothold in the marketplace. But Microsoft's assistance allowed Toshiba to get HD DVD players developed in record time, though the first models were essentially full-fledged PCs with HD DVD drives.

Problems getting disc lines up and running, as well as delays and shortages on blue laser diodes kept Blu-ray from launching on time. When it eventually did launch, firmware problems on the first player released, as well as less than stellar transfers of early BD titles allowed HD DVD to gain a following and essentially offered it a 9 month head start.

That all changed in November, 2006, however, when the long-delayed PS3 finally hit shelves. Over night, hundreds of thousands of Blu-ray players were suddenly in people's homes. Within a few weeks of that release, many more Blu-ray players hit stores, and the format started to decimate HD DVD in the movie sales numbers.

All that was a year ago... and honestly not much has changed since then. A few companies have changed allegiances, but overall Blu-ray movies still outsell HD DVD movies every week by approximately 2:1. Hopefully, something big will happen soon to end this war, but for now, that's where we are and how we got here.

A couple of corrections...

VC-1 was never in the original 2003 HD DVD spec, it was added when they asked MS to back them for AOD.

Sony NEVER submitted BD to the DVD Forum, the whole point of BD was to be rid of their idiotic strucure (6C, 4C and all that rubbish) and power struggles (DVD+- etc...), in fact they actually invited Toshiba to join the BDF in 2004 but they obviously rejected.

To get the new members into the DVD forum board Toshiba had to make a deal with the proverbial Devil an they will pay for it sooner rather than later.

I think you have missed a few developments like BD+ and AACS. BD+ still isn't completely broken while AACS is. This is very important as HD DVD will eventually position themselves as a format geared towards cheapos and pirates, not the image studios want when Blu does the opposite. It was OK for DVD as there was no alternative, but HD DVD will be in trouble from the studios for 'supporting' the pirates by using piss-poor copy protection.

[ra1024]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

To get the new members into the DVD forum board Toshiba had to make a deal with the proverbial Devil an they will pay for it sooner rather than later.

Are you at liberty to shed some light on this? I'm very interested to know if there will be repercussions for a lot of what's gone on. I asked a question in the insiders thread regarding this but never heard anyone respond. I think it got lost in the shuffle due to the holiday schedule and the constant chattering, .

Basically I was wondering if the BDA could/would punish the likes of Toshiba and Paramount. I thought refusing to grant Toshiba a player license and hitting Paramount with excessive title licenses would be a nice end to the format war.

[Anthony P]

By BFA did you mean BDA?

yes and no, before it was the BDA it was called the Blu-ray Founders it was formed either in 2002 or 2003 by 6-9 companies (that was a bit before I was paying attention) to work on a new blue laser media. Once there was more or less a format they started accepting more members (and levels) and renamed as BDA

Anyway, definitely correct anything else you catch that is either incorrect or misleading in my post

there is not much I can, I am not an insider and so my knowledge is very limited. In around 2003 I realized DVD was not good enough when I got my XGA projector, in 2004 I saw a thread started by DarinP in the projector forum of AVS on the subject and I started reading, my compulsive nature for the facts made me look for a bit more of the history, but there was not much public info on it. The rest is just what I read from other posters that new more then me. Which is why I asked you those questions instead of stating you are wrong. I was not sure if the history I read was right or your post now. For some things, like it was not just Sony and Pany initially, I was 90% sure, and why I think talking about it as the BFA is importing (especially since the HD DVD FUDsters try and portray BD as a Sony format while HD DVD is a DVD forum format). On others, like bringing BD to the DVD forum early on, I was less sure. My understanding for it was that before BD several companies wanted to discus HDoM but Toshiba was blocking it, (i.e. same physical structure or not) that was when they had enough and started their own club to look at the next generation. (but considering it looks as if Max is agreeing that it did not happen makes me more certain on what I think happens)

[Anthony P]

Are you at liberty to shed some light on this?

I think he means that when there was a deadlock on bringing in AOD (renamed by the forum HD DVD) Two member were added MS and Disney. MS was the one (at least my observation as an outsider) that convinced Toshiba to not listen to the studios which I believe is what really cost them this war. Let’s face it if HD DVD added BD+, RC, upped the BW, had better menu programming HD DVD could have had a lot more studio support.

Basically I was wondering if the BDA could/would punish the likes of Toshiba and Paramount. I thought refusing to grant Toshiba a player license and hitting Paramount with excessive title licenses would be a nice end to the format war.

no, most of those stuff are illegal and bad business. You can' have differential pricing just because you don't like someone.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by ra1024

Are you at liberty to shed some light on this? I'm very interested to know if there will be repercussions for a lot of what's gone on. I asked a question in the insiders thread regarding this but never heard anyone respond. I think it got lost in the shuffle due to the holiday schedule and the constant chattering, .

Basically I was wondering if the BDA could/would punish the likes of Toshiba and Paramount. I thought refusing to grant Toshiba a player license and hitting Paramount with excessive title licenses would be a nice end to the format war.

By this I meant the people they had to team up with to try and win with HD DVD are the very same people that destroyed DVD hardware profits, the Chinese.

The problem in letting the Chinese in is that it is a very difficult to get them to pay licencing fees and royalties as they hide behind their government and threaten CEs with all sorts of embargos.

Punishing Toshiba will not be necessary, losing the war is all the punishment they need. Look at what happened to Sony when they lost the Beta war, they went to Philips for CD, caved for the DVD specification and teamed up with about six different CEs with BD. Toshiba will have to learn the hard way, much like Sony have already done.

[glenn22]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

By this I meant the people they had to team up with to try and win with HD DVD are the very same people that destroyed DVD hardware profits, the Chinese.

The problem in letting the Chinese in is that it is a very difficult to get them to pay licencing fees and royalties as they hide behind their government and threaten CEs with all sorts of embargos.

Punishing Toshiba will not be necessary, losing the war is all the punishment they need. Look at what happened to Sony when they lost the Beta war, they went to Philips for CD, caved for the DVD specification and teamed up with about six different CEs with BD. Toshiba will have to learn the hard way, much like Sony have already done.

Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.

-Winston Churchill